Night Lords

[Legatus]

Was it difficult to try to live up to Simon's work while remaining original and keeping with what he had already wrote?

I don't imagine it was. I mean, it was nice of A D-B to briefly reference a few of the Characters from "Lord of the Night", but Soul Hunter would have worked quite well without them. In fact, as far as I am concerned anyone interrested in Night Lords and wanting to get a bit into the Black Library material can start right with Soul Hunter. (An anyone interrested in Ultramarines till has to wait for someone to write a decent book for them.)

 

Brief Synopsis of "Lord of the Night": A single Marine who apparently was once a member of the Night Lords legion but has no idea about what had happened to them at the later stages of the Great Crusade or during the Heresy sneaks around a hive city underground, killing a few homeless people. The Protagonist misinforms the reader throughout the book on what had hapened to his Legion (at least what he thinks had happened), until on the last pages an actual Night Lord informs us that he had been wrong all this time. But by that point a lot of the readers had already fully bought the protagonists deluded and misinformed version of the events.

 

Brief Synopsis of "Soul Hunter": We follow a battered Night Lord company on their ship, see how they get by scavenging equipment or what arrangements they make to have a functioning Strike Cruiser. We see how they interact with their human slaves, and we see how they go to war, as they begrudgingly enter a smaller campaign at Abaddons side, for political reasons. The campaign is not that crucial, as this is merely the introduction to a multi part series.

 

I think it should be easy to see why one of these is promising and interresting material for Night Lord (or Chaos Marine) fans, while the other is a bit more negligible.

[FenixAstartia]

Well I admit i might have embaressed myslef there but srsly, Just look here: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Soul-Hunter.html

 

Just about evry single one of them have give a tone of the Night Lords being "betrayed" or being "tragic".

[Legatus]

To be fair, almost everyone of those having read Soul Hunter would have also read "Lord of the Night" before that, which is where much of the notion that the Night Lords were betrayed had strongly been established and taken by a lot fo readers for granted, even though another Night Lord at the end tried to correct that notion. And admittedly the main protagonist in Soul Hunter has a similar view point, so that would only encourage the notion a lot of readers had already believed in since Lord of the Night. A D-B had promised to present a lot of different viewpoints existing within the Legion in his series, but with Soul Hunter he did not stray too much from what had already been presented in the "Lord of the Nights" novel. I would have preferred if he had immediately distanced himself a bit more from that deluded point of view, but I can understand if he did not want to immediately give a harsh contrast to what the readers had previously experienced in Lord of the Night. It makes for a more easy transition, but in turn it does not flat out "correct" the notion that had been presented in the earlier book.

 

I found "Soul Hunter" to be much better than "Lord of the Night" as far as Night Lord literature is concerned, and overall I even found it to be one of the best, if not the best Novel about Space Marines I have read. It seems to be difficult for authors to get Space Marines right (at least how I expect them to be), but A D-B has come very close. At least for Chaos Marines.

Now, there are a few bits in there I did not like. A lot of them are somehow nice in their own right, but feel totally out of place. Also, this is meant to serve as an introduction to the series, so not all threads started in the book are fully resolved by the end, and the Night Lords are not going full out "Night Lord" on someones ass in here. They engage in battle, and it is thrilling enough to read, but this is not the cliche "Night Lords attack a world and scare the heck out of everyone" described in their Index Astartes. This is a joint campaign with different Legion warbands present (don't remember if there were others than NL and BL), and the Night Lords are fighting for a Black Legion Warmaster. (Well, the Black Legion warmaster). In fact, one could say that the book is not very "Night Lord" at all. But it is very well written "life of a battered Chaos Marine warband" fiction, where the warband happens to be from the Night Lords Legion.

[Zerib]

While it is good to know other peoples views on a book I believe that you should read it before jumping on a band wagon idea. Many of us who are very interested in fluff are very critical of writers in the BL. With that in mind I believe that we sometimes find ourselves being very angry at the authors or having huge expectation. Don't get me wrong there are some BL authors who I think should not write but both Soul Hunter and Lord of the Night were great books. With the previous one focusing on an individual and the second having much more to do with painting a picture of the the legion and this particular company. The story is about how this company is on the decline and how they personally the legion as a whole was betrayed, which seems like every legion has a claim to with varying degrees of legitimacy. You complaining and belittling a book when you have not even picked it up seems asinine.

[Hellios]

Well I admit i might have embaressed myslef there but srsly, Just look here: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Soul-Hunter.html

 

Just about evrey single one of them have give a tone of the Night Lords being "betrayed" or being "tragic".

 

Betrayal is subjective and even then that depends on facts and we don't know the facts... If you think an Assassin was sent after Curze before ge destroyed his own planet then he (and so his legion?) could be seen as betrayed...

 

Some could say the entire heresey is tragic... personally I think Magnus was a tragic Hero and that he was betrayed, while many people (Space Wolf fan bois and all) think that Magnus was the one who betrayed his father and brothers...

 

Curze was just doing his job and he did it well from what I can tell... although I'm not sure he enjoyed it as much as some people think... and was he rewarded for this? no he was punished... (or the intention was to punish him)... some would say that is a betrayal and that everything that happened to him and his legion from that point on was because of that betrayal... but that all depends on your point of view...

 

Do you think Democracy is the best form of government or do you just fear the unknown. Do you think humans lack the abillity to solve many of the problems we face or are you just scared of the action that someone would need to take to solve them? Are you willing to step into the darkness, the unknown... so that it will become known to you and realise it isn't as simple as pitch black and that it isn't all evil...

[Legatus]

The Night Lords were not betrayed, and the circumstances of their downfall were not tragic. Unfortunate, how the Legion got infused with criminals, but not tragic. Not betrayed, as the other Primarchs only started to act against Curze after he had attacked Dorn in a fit of rage, and the Emperor only started to act against him after Curze took his Legion, blew up his own homeworld and then cut a bloody swath through the Imperium.

 

There is a tragic element to the story of Curze, and that is the fact that he had visions of the Heresy since his youth, and he had suffered a great deal about them. He is described as clearly destraught by them in the Index Astartes. The tragic thing is that it had finally occured what he had feared all his life. He had known about it all along, and he had feared it, did not want it to happen, it had made him sick. And then it occured, it could not be prevented. But he himself was not really actively trying to prevent that, to shape his own destiny. When he cracked and took his Legion on a rampage, he may have had a weakened psyche due to a life time of fear and suffering, but those were his own actions. He was not tricked in ordering the death of several innocent worlds, he was not possessed by a daemon, he was not doing it to serve ay just purpose. He just was not strong enough to handle his Legion that had been corrupted and tainted.

[Hellios]

The Night Lords were not betrayed, and the circumstances of their downfall were not tragic. Unfortunate, how the Legion got infused with criminals, but not tragic. Not betrayed, as the other Primarchs only started to act against Curze after he had attacked Dorn in a fit of rage, and the Emperor only started to act against him after Curze took his Legion, blew up his own homeworld and then cut a bloody swath through the Imperium.

 

That depends if what we know is true and if what we know is all that occured... generally information in regards to most of the 40k universe is vague at best... and as I say betrayal, unfortunate... tragedy... these terms are subjective... ask members from legions on both sides of the Emperor/Horus divide and I'll bet you will find plenty who will say the other betrayed them on both sides. Such words only have as much meaning as you give them from your perspective and within the context you see it.

 

Curze attacked Dorn but I've never come across any writings that go indepth on the subject especially how it started... all I know is Dorn got his ass handed to him but as far as I know Curze insulted Dorn gave him a slap and Curze went schizo... then again Dorn might have asked him how he liked his eggs and then Curze just jumped on him... either way one could argue if Curzes behaviour was acceptable or not...

[Rain]

To be fair to the guy criticizing Soul Hunter without reading it, he is partially right. The Night Lords just didn't feel like the callous mass murderers that they were in fluff, with especially the scene in which Cyrion is giving Septimus that protection medal thingy really rubbing me the wrong way. It was also odd that while the Exalted was obviously Chaotic and so were some of his terinators, the rest of the warband seemed pretty nice. There was that one terminator that was buddies with Talos, and all of the power armored astartes apart from Uzas seemed really down to earth, apparently even tolerating an entire population of human squatters or whatever they were on their ship.

 

That said it was still better than Lord of the Night, and closer to the NL of the original fluff which is good as I love the original NL fluff precisely for the reason that they weren't just another bunch of tragic heroes and actually deserved their damnation due to their horrid depravities. Supposedly Blood Reaver will involve more terror causing and whatnot so we shall yet see.

[Legatus]

The Night Lords just didn't feel like the callous mass murderers that they were in fluff, with especially the scene in which Cyrion is giving Septimus that protection medal thingy really rubbing me the wrong way.

I'm with you on that one. On the one hand I really liked that scene, probably the most memorable in the book, really. But on the other hand it was extremely out of place and character, and diminished the overall feel of the book.

[Dante Alighieri]

The Night Lords just didn't feel like the callous mass murderers that they were in fluff, with especially the scene in which Cyrion is giving Septimus that protection medal thingy really rubbing me the wrong way.

I'm with you on that one. On the one hand I really liked that scene, probably the most memorable in the book, really. But on the other hand it was extremely out of place and character, and diminished the overall feel of the book.

 

I don't know. Where is it said that the terrorizing murderer can't like the people that are useful to him? They may be just tools, but darn it, they're his tools.

 

*Note: I know that Septimus is not Cyrion's slave.

[Legatus]

It wasn't so much giving Septimus another coin so he would be protected. It was being all pulling his leg but really being cool about the whole voidborn thing. That was a totally "soft core in a hard shell" moment, which is not what I want from my Chaos Space Marines.

[Dante Alighieri]

It wasn't so much giving Septimus another coin so he would be protected. It was being all pulling his leg but really being cool about the whole voidborn thing. That was a totally "soft core in a hard shell" moment, which is not what I want from my Chaos Space Marines.

 

Again, who says a psychopath can't be nice to the people who are useful to him? The voidborn was obviously something that all the people on the ship were rallying behind to keep them going. Letting the slaves know that you, their demigod master, care for the thing they love the most (whether you actually mean it or not) will drive up their willingness to do your bidding. Besides, it isn't beyond reason for the guy who can sense everyone's fears to know how to both play with them and alleviate them when he is through with his fun.

 

EDIT: Think Ciaphus Cain, and his manipulating people by just years of experience reading body language. Now, think of what a psyker that can sense your fears could do.

[Solid Zaku]

We have to also remember that Soul Hunter and Talonmaster's situations were fairly unique among the breadth of the Night Lords Legion. If anything, types such as Krieg Acerbus were more commonplace. Is it tragic what happened to the first two? Most certainly. In their situation, they were betrayed (to the fullest extent of THEIR knowledge, not the dramatically ironic knowledge.)

[Chengar Qordath]

Personally, I've always thought it made sense that at least some of the Night Lords actually believe that they're in the right when it comes to betraying the Imperium. Of course, I've always been of the opinion that most people believe that they're the good guys of their own story; it's always struck me as silly when you have a character running around saying "Mwahaha! I am an evil person of evilness, who does evil thing because I'm evil, and that's what evil people do!" Of course, just because a character thinks they're the good guy doesn't make it true; I imagine there's a healthy chunk of Night Lords who try to justify their actions by claiming that the Emperor betrayed them, but they're really just making excuses to indulge their sadistic impulses.

[Verrix]

Strangely enough, I've always felt the Night Lords were one of the most tragic Legions. Yes, Angron was angry. Perturabo was spiteful. But the Night Lords, they did exactly what they were supposed to do. And they did it very well. Their primarch, their gene-father Curze, knew he was going to die. He knew that he had spread the Emperor's justice but had done so in a way that made him a criminal. But, the Emperor had sanctioned this. The Night Lords weren't simple terror-troopers. They were justice-through-fear. It wasn't all about slaughter and mayhem; it was bringing about the Emperor's justice. Albeit, justice through slaughter and mayhem. :) The Emperor used Curze and his Legion as weapons of mass-destruction, knowing full well he would later have to "put them down" as if they were rabid dogs rather than his proud sons.

 

The Night Lords, therefore, are summed up (for me at least) by their Primarch's most famous phrase:

Death is nothing compared to vindication.

They don't believe they can win the Long War. They don't need to. They will prove that the Emperor was no better than they are now. Yes, they spread terror and many of them (such as Krieg Acerbus, Perciltior and others) are consumed by the need to spread fear amongst their foes. And no matter how depraved they are, how much they murder and sin, they know eventually they will answer for these sins through their own deaths. But, it was the corpse-god who crafted them. They are his sons and they are in his image. That knowledge vindicates them.

 

If any of the above makes sense, you're insane. :)

[Legatus]

Strangely enough, I've always felt the Night Lords were one of the most tragic Legions. Yes, Angron was angry. Perturabo was spiteful. But the Night Lords, they did exactly what they were supposed to do. And they did it very well. Their primarch, their gene-father Curze, knew he was going to die. He knew that he had spread the Emperor's justice but had done so in a way that made him a criminal. But, the Emperor had sanctioned this. The Night Lords weren't simple terror-troopers. They were justice-through-fear. It wasn't all about slaughter and mayhem; it was bringing about the Emperor's justice. Albeit, justice through slaughter and mayhem. msn-wink.gif The Emperor used Curze and his Legion as weapons of mass-destruction, knowing full well he would later have to "put them down" as if they were rabid dogs rather than his proud sons.

See, that's what is bothering me about "Lord of the Night". It has instilled the notion above into a lot of readers minds, even though it was revealed at the end that this was not really true. That's not how it went down. Initially the Noght Lords were merely strict and uncompromising. But after the Legion had been infused with criminals from Nostramo, they more and more started to massacre civillians for the fun of it, not longer to make any point or achieve obedience. The other Primarchs only started to act against Curze after he had the fight with Dorn. And the Emperor started to act even later, after Curze had cracked enturely and taken th eLegion on a mindless rampage.

[Verrix]

See, that's what is bothering me about "Lord of the Night". It has instilled the notion above into a lot of readers minds, even though it was revealed at the end that this was not really true. That's not how it went down. Initially the Noght Lords were merely strict and uncompromising. But after the Legion had been infused with criminals from Nostramo, they more and more started to massacre civillians for the fun of it, not longer to make any point or achieve obedience. The other Primarchs only started to act against Curze after he had the fight with Dorn. And the Emperor started to act even later, after Curze had cracked enturely and taken th eLegion on a mindless rampage.

 

I see no reason why both can't be true, to a point. Konrad Curze is a complex character who was undoubtedly troubled by the visions that wracked him both mentally and physically. His Legion follows suit. Some are undoubtedly like Talos and Sahaal. Many are undoubtedly more like Acerbus and his band of psychopathic criminals. In fact, we are told that Acerbus holds the largest faction of the legion under his sway. But we see that some still hold to the older ways; Talos, Sahaal (though he seems reviled as a coward for his actions regarding the Corona Nox) and even Captain Halasker seems less like a murderous psychopath and more like Talos and his kin.

[Rain]

They can't both be true because the Emperor either sanctioned the Night Lords' purges or he didn't, which is really the sticking point here. The NL could only have been "betrayed" if the Emperor specifically told them to do what they did and then turned on them, him telling them to bring world into compliance and them then going off to skin kittens and kick babies doesn't really jive as them being betrayed. Now are there some NL that believe themselves to have been betrayed? Well yes of course there are, but that's a different question and one of their delusion more than of what actually happened. Really though there are already a lot of posts discussing this so you might want to look around the Ascendant board.

[Lord_Caerolion]

See, that's what is bothering me about "Lord of the Night". It has instilled the notion above into a lot of readers minds, even though it was revealed at the end that this was not really true. That's not how it went down. Initially the Noght Lords were merely strict and uncompromising. But after the Legion had been infused with criminals from Nostramo, they more and more started to massacre civillians for the fun of it, not longer to make any point or achieve obedience. The other Primarchs only started to act against Curze after he had the fight with Dorn. And the Emperor started to act even later, after Curze had cracked enturely and taken th eLegion on a mindless rampage.

 

Not saying you're wrong, but you're placing a lot of trust in the words of a Chaos-corrupted, insane Daemon Prince there, compared to someone who only just lived through the events. Are you really going to trust Acerbus over what Night Haunter was really like? Sure, Sahaal is possibly insane, but Acerbus has been twisted by 10,000 years of Chaos worship, so we can't trust his version either.

 

Personally, I believe the events were somewhere in between. The Emperor didn't outright allow the Night Lords to do their purges, but the Night Haunter utterly believed that what he and his Legion was doing was right. Everything he did, he did for his Father, wanting only praise. Instead, he was scorned, and, to his mind, betrayed. It's the equivalent of a cat leaving its master a dead mouse as a gift. It thinks it's done something great for you, and wants your thanks, and can't understand why you don't like it.

 

If anything, I see Night Haunter as actually being quite childish in his mindset, that his humourless, "kill them all" nature was covering what was essentially a very insecure, terrified figure. This is someone who never had a chance to form any sort of human bonds. Unlike the other Primarchs, he was never adopted by a family, never had a 'father', never had anyone to comfort him. Suddenly, the Emperor arrives, and he has a father-figure finally, as well as 19 brothers! However, his lack of developed social skills alienate him from his brothers, while the Emperor, now returned to Terra, becomes ever more distant, with Curze still desperate for his praise. He throws himself into the reclaimation of worlds, using the only method he knows how. While his methods are incredibly successful, they also work to further alienate him from his brothers, while the Emperor doesn't react.

 

Over time, combined with his visions of the future Heresy, turn his isolationism into bitterness, and he begins to see himself as a disposable tool by the Emperor. After all, everything he's ever done hasn't gotten him the slightest reaction from his father, and further distance himself from his brothers. This all comes to a head when Dorn declares him a Traitor. Hadn't he done everything in his power to complete the Great Crusade? Hadn't he turned himself into a figure of utter terror, sacrificing what little humanity he had? This just serves to prove his paranoid theories correct, that he is being discarded now that his usefullness has been used up.

 

As for his Legion, I can see some members, namely the Terran and Curze-era recruits holding to the righteousness of their rebellion, but these are almost completely drowned by the number of post-Curze recruits who simply want to increase their own power, and kill others.

 

Does it matter whether there were assassins pre-destruction of Nostromo? Not particularly, as the Night Haunter was already sufficiently bitter and deluded to think that the Emperor had abandoned him, that he was being discarded. That's what makes the Night Lords tragic. The possible presence of assassins before Night Haunter destroyed Nostromo doesn't remove that.

[Piousservant]

Caerolion, I do like your ideas. Personally I'm still not entirely convinced that tragic is quite the right word for Curze and his legion, except in the respect that Legatus elaborated above.

 

 

Night Haunter is considered - in part - to be similar to Batman and I think that actually is a good way of looking at the Night Lord (or it could just be because I'm currently replaying Arkham Asylum and I've got Bats on the brain). Night Haunter is considered - in part - to be similar to Batman and I think that actually is a good way of looking at the Night Lords (or it could just be because I'm currently replaying Arkham Asylum and I've got Bats on the brain). As I’ve never been into the comics I’m drawing more on the characterisations in the Dark Knight film more than the game itself. Curze is obviously an extreme Batman who, whilst still having a “code” that he follows, is far bloodier and aggressive in tackling injustice. Curze isn’t a vigilante, as he is one of the Emperors enforcers, but I think similarly Curze (initially at least) is in a similar position to Batman that the “authority” whilst not condoning his actions does tacitly support them (obviously Jim Gordon provides more than just tacit support for Batman but I hope the analogy is clear enough). The difference is that Curze’s actions, and his “code”, reach a point where they become unacceptable to the Imperium.

 

After the confrontation with Dorn, Curze snaps – basically the result the Joker is trying (and fails) to achieve with Batman in The Dark Knight – and goes on his rampage. He still believes in his “code” (ever so slightly warped by this point) and believes his actions to be justified, though it should be clear from our perspective (and that of the broader Imperium – the “good guys”) that Curze is quite simply wrong at this point. Another reference within the same frame is the fall of Harvey Dent into Two Face, the motivations are different but the effects are pretty similar.

 

What we have after the Heresy could maybe be looked at as the “Fallen Batman” faction of the Night Lords and the “Joker” faction (and there maybe others, these are just two broad camps that I can think of). The first, the “Fallen Batman” are those who hold true (they believe) to Curzes vision and to his now inverted code – these are those like Talos, and I suppose Sahaal, who believe they were betrayed and in the course of vengeance they are taking. The “Jokers” are those (probably) like Acerbus, Night Lords who fight now purely for the pleasure of it. They don’t want anything logical anymore, they just “want to watch the world burn”. They are, as the Joker says, “agents of chaos” (with a small “c”!!!). Broadly speaking these kind of Marines probably make up the bulk of the post-Heresy Legion.

 

 

I quite like the idea of a “Two Face” themed Night Lord leader, actually. Having that the Night Lords code has failed, this Lord realises that chaos (small “c” again) provides real, fair and unbiased justice. I picture the Lord teleporting into a governors palace with his terminator honour guard and flicking a Nostraman coin (or something more convient for terminator armour and a little more original but you get the idea). “Heads, you live… Tails… Your world burns…”

[Legatus]

Not saying you're wrong, but you're placing a lot of trust in the words of a Chaos-corrupted, insane Daemon Prince there, compared to someone who only just lived through the events. Are you really going to trust Acerbus over what Night Haunter was really like? Sure, Sahaal is possibly insane, but Acerbus has been twisted by 10,000 years of Chaos worship, so we can't trust his version either.

No, absolutely not! I am not just deciding to go with what a daemon character at the end of a novel says over what the main protagonist had been saying throughout the book. I am going with what the previous Night Lords fluff had been in their Index Astartes article. Sahaals accounts is contradictory to the description in the Index Astartes article, so the reader would (or should, if he had read about the Night Lords before) already wonder throughout the books why Sahaals account is so much different. At the end, Acerbus then does not give us some kind of new information. He merely explains that Sahaals account was wrong, the Index Astartes background was true, and he explains that Night Haunter had deliberately told these lies to Sahaal.

 

Index Astartes background: "Night Haunter cracked and went on a rampage, then the Emperor sent Assassins after him."

 

Sahaal's belief: "The Emperor had sent Assassins after Night Haunter all the time, even when the Night Lords were still fighting for him. Night Haunter told me personally."

 

Acerbus' explains: "Nope, he was just using you. Night Haunter cracked and went on a rampage, then the Emperor sent Assassins after him."