Creating a new Dark Angel Codex.

[Gillyfish]

One of the things that has come out loud and clear from recent threads is that there is a keen desire to bring our Codex up-to-date. What is equally clear is that whilst some people would be satisfied with a Codex that brings us in line with Codex Space Marines and (to a lesser extent, Codex Blood Angels), others would like to go further and look at creating a Codex from the ground up – a true, new Codex: Unforgiven.

 

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. Bringing us in line Codex Space Marines will resolve a number of the issues with wargear and stat lines, but it doesn’t address the things that makes the Dark Angels unique. The ground-up approach is altogether more radical (and indulges our creative sides), but is going to take longer to do and opponents may be reluctant to play against it unless we playtest it rigorously. Instead of trying to find a middle-ground between the two, we are going to tackle each one separately, but concurrently.

 

Neither one of these is going to be an easy undertaking and we are going to need to plan these properly. If we are to succeed we will need some agreed criteria for the objectives and goals of the projects, not to mention a shared design philosophy. This is one of the reasons for keeping them separate – they inherently have different end points – one is about updating an existing book and the other is about creating one from scratch.

 

With that in mind, this is the proposed approach:

 

Project Redemption: Updating the Codex

 

We will use the material generated during the Codex Levelling Project as a starting point for further development. Examples of key issues that still need to be resolved are the inclusion of units that are currently in Codex Space Marines, but not Codex Dark Angels and the use of larger Deathwing squad sizes with updated wargear that may affect balance and require playtesting.

 

Project Unforgiven: Creating a 5th edition Codex

 

This will adopt a blank page approach. Although Codex Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Space Marines will be important points of reference, this is about creating a distinct Dark Angels army list, based on the background. This project will probably take longer that Project: Redemption and so will need definite design criteria and comprehensive playtesting, which could result in major amendments or the jettisoning of people’s ideas. So this is not likely to be a project for the thin-skinned!

 

Both projects will require commitment from the Dark Angels community over a fairly lengthy period of time (our initial thoughts are to allow for a timeframe of six months - say end of February 2011).

 

We will use the rules development sub-forum for these projects and (primarily to avoid clutter and confusion) we will shortly be locking all open threads in that forum and only allowing mods to start new threads. The idea being to help us all focus on each stage of the projects as we go along.

 

We’ve posted this thread to let you know that this is (broadly) what we intend to do and to get some preliminary feedback on the approach.

 

Please let us know what you think.

[Tanhausen]

On one side, I think "nice, brushing up the codex is certainly needed".

 

On the other side "but this won't be official... AND we will be doing free work for a company that is profit geared".

 

Those are my thoughts at the moment :)

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

I'm totally for it. I see home-brewed Dark Angel codices pop up all the time, and I think it would be a good thing for us to do as a community seeing as how it's such a popular subject. With the guidance of the community leaders, I think we can do something positive and maybe develop ideas that GW will take notice of.

 

On the other side "but this won't be official... AND we will be doing free work for a company that is profit geared".

Wrong way of looking at it, IMO. If GW does take even some of what we develop as inspiration for a new codex, we haven't done free work for them. We've done work for ourselves as a community so that we can better enjoy the hobby when our codex is released.

[Maxamato]

Yeah, to create an update for the current dex will be nice. Is it planed to transmit the suggestions to GW too?

 

... AND we will be doing free work for a company that is profit geared".

In principle I agree with you, BUT we are he customer from this company (GW) and if we give them feedback, then they have to give us any response. And in the past, GW has react of the suggestions form B&C forum (see 3rd edition update). And why should GW not react ( in any ways) of any comments, improvements from the B&C Forum IMO?

 

Regards

Maxamato

[Gillyfish]

Yeah, to create an update for the current dex will be nice. Is it planed to transmit the suggestions to GW too?

 

That's certainly my intention, but I'm willing to be guided by what the community wants here!

 

Tanhausen, you have a point, but, as the others have said I think the advantages may outweigh the disadvantages. it would give GW a sense of how we perceive our army and demonstrates that there is an enthusiastic fanbase, even three years after the release of what is now generally perceived as an under-powered Codex.

 

But this thread is to obtain feedback - do you think we shouldn't go ahead with it?

[Maxamato]

I say: Let's do it! :)

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail!

 

First of, I think it will be good effort - and one that might see me rekindle the gaming side of my Dark Angels, rather than "just" painting them, and waiting for better times.

 

I have always been drawn to the background of the Dark Angels, and still consider them to be one of the coolest Chapters around this part of the galaxy. First Legion and a mirror of the Emperor/Horus-betrayal.

 

Therefore, I am certainly willing to give it a try and a helping hand.

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas

 

Hail!

 

First of, I think it will be good effort - and one that might see me rekindle the gaming side of my Dark Angels, rather than "just" painting them, and waiting for better times.

 

I have always been drawn to the background of the Dark Angels, and still consider them to be one of the coolest Chapters around this part of the galaxy. First Legion and a mirror of the Emperor/Horus-betrayal.

 

Therefore, I am certainly willing to give it a try and a helping hand.

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas

[Tanhausen]

To be 100% honest: I'd LOVE to help develop, test and fine-tune our new codex.

 

If its just a "for fun" thing, then nothing else is needed: we are all in this for the fun! Except for Gillyfish who we know is in this for a hefty paycheck from GW and all the girls :)

 

If its "for serious", we lack information. Not just a bit or a part: we don't know squat about what strategic plan does GW have for say 3-5 years. Its also true that many companies (not to say most) don't even have a Strategic Plan.

 

If we knew what the Games Developing Department has in mind (please please please, lets hope they have something!), what the game-plan is for the 3 main games (WFB, W40k and LOTR), we could work in the same direction.

 

Just to give an example:

 

Lets suppose GW has decided that they are not that happy with the revenues regarding a particular range. Say... Necrons.

 

Obviously, they aren't going to tell everybody they are going to discontinue production or support for that line... they will just let it die and eventually just not re-stock retailers.

 

Example 2:

 

Say they are very happy with the margin they are getting with tactical marines. So they are gearing the future of 40k to a more troop based enviroment. Obviously, they won't do that NOW because so many people are mech'ing up and that also provides revenue.

 

Wrap up: in the dark grim present, there is only revenue B)

 

Any for profit company will be driven by what pays its 3.000+ workers and try to achieve again the 100 million pound revenue. Or even better, regain the operational profit figures from 3-4 years ago.

 

Bottom line: if we knew where GW is heading for 40k, we could work in the same direction. What do they want to emphasize?

 

Tanks? We all know how apocalypse went... how long did the 10 Leman Russ packs last, 6 months? Maybe it was a Gross Margin screw up.

 

Skimmers?

 

Troops?

 

Terminators?

 

Uber assault units?

 

Another great example of how they are showing their business: the new Daemons.

 

Can you guys imagine the cost cutting the new bloodcrushers and daemon prince will report to them?

 

A quick run: only 1 packaging needed for 40K and WFB. We are all so happy with a million spare parts in the Daemon Prince and GW is happy he now only has 1 tool for production, 1 box for packaging, 1 SKU for its warehouse... that is one SWEET decision someone/s made in the company.

 

They sort of do this with marines, where you get extra icons from a few chapters. Thinking of the Drop Pod and the door icons.

 

I'm pretty sure they are looking SO hard for synergies WFB - W40k... I wouldn't be surprised if they attempted another go if they can find a double sided race. Imagine Necrons and Tomb Kings? :P

 

Sorry for such a long post... but Supply Chain is a nasty hobby for me and I can't help thinking in those terms :D

 

Find out what GW wants in its future for 40k and we can work in that direction.

 

Obviously, just my thoughts.

[Hemal]

Sign me up. I'd think that perhaps BT and DA might get similar sprues - robes/tabards, monastic knights - just with swords and feathers for DA and maltese crosses for BT...

[Gillyfish]

Fair points. I think we can get a sense of where GW are going with marines from the more recent codexes. Blood Angels in particular are interesting as they are an apparently Codex Chapter, yet their book is different. Interestingly, the model used for the DA way back when still seems to apply - release a couple of Chapter specific box sets and upgrade sprues for the Chapter - most other models from the Space Marine range can be used as is.

 

Likely business decisions would need to be considered when developing the list. For example, a squadron of jetbikes would be extremely cool, but (if plastic) that is a substantial expenditure for GW which may not be returned. Unique vehicles in the past have been in the form of upgrade sprues to add to existing kits rather than completely new kits. That said, if Grey Knights were to get them (which now is seemingly unlikely) the cost could be spread across both armies and an increased profit achieved (more people would buy them).

 

That's not to mention that people will use a cool kit for their own army - I've seen many examples of robed marines in the PCA section of this board and they appear in armies as diverse as Blood Angel, DIYs and Templars. Similarly, people on this board have used Templar robed bodies for terminators and Sanguinary Guard wings for DA jump packs.

 

Ultimately, we cannot know GW's mind, but what we can try to do is give them an indication of what we'd like and think would be cool and some ideas which will hopefully fall in fertile ground and may actually appear within our army book!

[Tanhausen]

OK, trying to stay positive here :)

 

What new boxes/packs did the Wolves get?

- Battle Force (which is mainly a SM BF with some wolve specific sprues)

- Troops (normal SM with 1 or 2 sprues)

- Canis and other characters (thinking of Ragnar)... but that doesn't make that much profit.

 

And the Blood Angels?

- Astorath

- Dante? (not sure)

- Sanguinary Guard

- Troops (again, SM with a couple special sprues)

- Talon Dread?

 

And the Tyranids?

- Mawgloc/Trygon

Edit: Thanks to Master Ciaphas

- Plastic Gargoyles and Raveners

- Pyrovore

- Venomthrope

 

And the Orks?

- ??

 

And the Daemons?

- Daemon Prince redone

- Khorne Juggernauts redone

- Slaanesh fast attack creatures redone

 

Please: if any of you rememeber other additions to these armies, let me know and I'll edit (or a Mod if he wants) so we can have all the "new" developments together. If a list like this already exists and is easy to browse (so not the sprue thread), please share.

 

All this being said, what HUGE new models did they get?

 

Blood Angels got (or will get) Storm Raven, Sanguinary guard and that's about it. The rest are "simple" sprues, not scratch models.

 

Wolves... I guess they'll get Cavalry and that's about it.

 

Dark Angels... we have a Ravenwing specific Battleforce, plus a veteran box (not just a couple sprues).

 

If I had to ask for models, I'd ask either a 3 LS box or a 3 AB box. It's EXTREMELY costly to get only 1 LS or AB in a RW BF

 

I don't think 3 LS or 3 AB box is THAT much of a crazy idea.

 

Rules-wise, I'd try to go for a more extreme codex.

 

That means, just as FerociousBeast claims, it should hurt.

 

What about only RW and DW?

 

- Get rid of the tacticals!

 

- Keep the scouts Elite with a WS/BS 4

 

- Allow for designated transport LR

 

How does that sound?

[Gillyfish]

The BA got the following:

 

The Sanguinor

Lemartes

Astorath the Grim

Gabriel Seth

Death Company

Sanguinary Guard

Baal Predator

Furioso Dreadnought

 

Space Wolves also got new terminators, did they not?

 

The Daemons got most troops in plastic (in two waves though), a slew of new character and cavalry models.

 

The BA will also get the new Stormraven at some point.

 

Before we get into too much discussion about the business aspects (which will have to form one of our criteria for considering new units) are there any other aspects of what has been proposed that people wish to discuss?

[Tanhausen]

*sigh*

 

Post lost in the warp due to server crash I guess.

 

I'd go for new codex, going extreme and DW + RW only.

[Arvendragon]

As of now, there still is no "new" Furioso, and the Stormraven was said to be released to at least Grey Knights, maybe all the chapters.

 

And this is why I love the Dark Angels, community.

 

I'm in. Good luck and have fun all.

[Master Ciaphas]

Hail!

 

I would agree - the Dark Angels have many things that can serve to make them unique.

 

Besides the "obvious" Deathwing and Ravenwing, I think that one aspect in particular could be explored:

 

The fact that the Dark Angels are still, in reality, a Legion - and that it is only for appearances that we have abandonded the pre-Heresy and Heresy era force organization.

 

Though perhaps mostly a fluff issue, I am sure the bright heads in here can explore that nugget to some degree, rules wise.

 

Regards,

Master Ciaphas

[con-fusion]

I'm in for the overhaul, and agree with Master Ciaphas. We need to advance the fluff to where we think it should be and build the new units/rules accordingly. This will give us lots of fluffy playable builds, which is money.

[Tempuss]

Count me in please...

 

an idea to start debate:

 

I have always wanted a Deathwing "fire-support" squad, (similar to devastators perhaps taking a HS) with the options of four ass cannons or cyc miss per squad !

 

would add new element to the DW ?

[chaplain belisarius]

i think all we need is cheaper tactical, assault and dev squads, put scouts in troops too...make HQ choices fearless (plus option for 3 wound interrogator chaplain!)

 

Then we just take deathwing and ravenwing...

 

TA-DA! job done (relic blades would be nice for company masters too...)

 

I really dont want anything crazy...just codex with deathwing and ravenwing and inner circle...thats all!

[brennus]

Project Redemption (CLP) holds more interest for me. Since most of our units are standard Codex units, we should lift them wholesale from Codex: Space Marines. We should only brainstorm for special rules regarding a select few units - remember the KISS principle (No, it has nothing to do with Gene Simmons). Only our HQ choices, Ravenwing, and Deathwing need to be treated seperately.

 

Basically, use existing material as the basis, flesh out only a select handful of units, and be sure to balance out any special unit advantages with disadvantages.

[schad1974]

Been a long time writing on the B&C and even longer since I Have Played... Sad really. (Family comes first and Blood is thicker than Acrillic Pants)

 

Codex Format = Great.

Dark Angel Heros = So So but we can live with them.

Bella Should Be a little better with his S of S. like a strength 6 attack.

 

Would Like to see an added Hero from some of the other unforgiven. The Good old Fortress of the Unforgiven web page could help with that.

 

Ravenwing = Good very happy with how Ravenwing works and the points $ is about right.

 

Deathwing = was Great till the Space puppies got there own twist to the Mixed squad.

I would Like to see our Deathwing Sarg get an extra Attack or an extra wound. Has always been a problem with Terminators that the First model you remove is the Sarg with his power sword. This Hero should stand out above the other members of the Deathwing for a reason. Something is needed to make him standout and justify all the extra ornate wargear on his armor and Keep that model from being pulled from the table. Yes we can arm him with lighting claws or a thunder hammer But I still think there needs to be just a Little more to make him the Leader of the Best.

 

Scouts = Great don't Change a thing!

reason why our Scouts are so good.. Due to potential encounters with Fallen our scouts already have been made Full marines. The only thing that they lack is Induction into a company and Power armor. They have been screened by the Chapter and the risk of Corruption is much less.

 

Tactical Squads == Idea to bring ever thing even with Regular marines. Give all our Sarg Power weapons and Give us back Plasma Goodness. I.E. Cheep Plasma guns and Cannons. (don't want to get to greedy but with a Ten man Squad give a Plasma Cannon Free )

 

Devistators === same as the Tactical Plasma, Plasma, Plasma, Cheep Cheep Cheep.

 

Beating a dead Chaos worshiper here but Plasma is a double edged power sword. Great Firepower vs Risk of the Marine getting his face melted off. In my mind it is a Fare Trade off for keeping the points the same.

 

 

We might Get what we wish for...... word of warning.

We saw it with the last Codex. GW did a fair job reading what the Dark Angels players wanted. With the Change over to the new rules We were on top of the world. Problem is that EVERONE else got to see what we got first and wanted the same plus more.

 

Example Dark Angels and there Plasma Cannons. They were cheeper for us and many of us took advantage of that rule. If you go back fair enough on Bolter and Chainsword i'm sure you will still find All the other Chapters winning about us having cheep Plasma. THERE were a lot of postings!!!!.

GW payed attention to this and we lost that edge.

Was it unfair that we had this in our rule book????? I don't think so. I made up for us not having outer things and did lend its self to the Dark Angel FLUFF and style of Play.

[con-fusion]

(primarily to avoid clutter and confusion)

 

I don't know about this "clutter" character, but there really is no need to avoid me...

 

By the way, if we intend to share with GW, I suggest we send both projects in together. That way GW can see what the community thinks should be in an "update" vs an "overhaul" at the same time.

[Grand Master Springemann]

I am game for helping write a new codex and/or an update.

 

I took a long break from posting and gaming with my DA. I have recently been doing both because I like to show that even though our codex is under-powered it still has teeth. I gotta say how fun it is when I beat a BA army or a SW army with my DA. The look on their faces is priceless

[RayJ]

I am all for playtesting and brainstorming ideas on both fronts. I've got some friends in the gaming industries that I've helped out over the years with similar needs, and my local group is quite open to trying new things. I've got some scheduling issues to deal with to make it run smoothly on my end, but once it's all figured out you have my full support.

 

The biggest thing to do on both accounts is remember that simpler is better. Universal Special Rules) USRs are better than brand new rules, especially when the two are similar. Tweaking and reusing known ideas is better for immediate game balance and ease of use. Also, redesigning or rewriting 25% or more of the fluff as we know it in order to make new rules will lead down a dangerous path.

 

Also, while a few of the updates will be almost trivial in working them out, a clear definition of each unit in the codex should be set up BEFORE rules are designed. Not only that, but similar should be done with the other 3 SM codices to ensure divergence is applied correctly and continuity is also applied correctly.

 

The people heading up these projects should have a decent amount of experience with playtesting and/or designing for exception-based rules systems.

[HsojVvad]

I would love to be part of this. I don't really care much for Project Redemption, (while I love the name though) I am here for Project Unforgiven. One thing I must insist for Project Unforgiven, since this will be building from the ground up, is that.

 

We are Dark Angels. We are not Space Marines or Ultra Marines. We are Dark Angels. Once we stop worring about what the SM have we can focus clearly on what we have. Again, so what if we only have 1 shot for Cyclone Missles, lets not get hanged up that SM have 2 shots. Maybe we have one shot but we have something else that will make us truely Dark Angels instead of DA Green Ultra Marines.

 

I like the idea that was posted about what did SW, BA, Tyranids get in their codex that was new so we can guess what new stuff will come out. I guess we will have a better idea once we see the new Dark Eldar codex comes out in October/Novemeber.

[breng77]

I'm in to help on either or both.

 

Giving it some further thought what I would like to see in a new codex are some rules for playing the fallen (as they are not really in the current chaos codex).