Creating a new Dark Angel Codex.

[Bringer of Redemption]

I'm a fan of this idea. Not sure how much I can do personally, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to get things done.

 

If you need a hand writing decent sounding fluff, military history and writing are hobbies of mine, but otherwise...

 

--BoR

[Tomevans]

This is definately a good plan, I would love to help with unit creation. I tend to get a little far fetched and fluffy with my ideas so perhaps Ferocious Beast and a few others could keep me grounded. This may be a way off, but some official input from GW would be nice too. Just a little nudge as to what they are thinking about in regards to a new 'dex and what focus we should aim for.

[Grand Master Springemann]

I do not believe that GW has anything planned for the DA for I say at least a year. I am all about new units but I would be carefull as to not make them overly powerful. I would like to see a special rule for our plasma weapons see as our fluff states we have the most exstensive collection of it.

[Gillyfish]

Thank you all for your comments so far.

 

It's clear that there is some support for both projects (which is good) but that there are a wide range of ideas about what could/should go into a Codex.

 

As I said before, one of the first things we would need to do in Project Unforgiven before getting anywhere near actual rules is to clarify exactly what we think the Dark Angels are. We'll probably put some threads in the rules development sub-forum to do just that, once everyone is happy with the overall direction of the projects.

 

RayJ raises a good point about ensuring that we do proper playtesting and we will also need to think about how we make decisions, particularly if there is a split in opinion between members.

 

As ever, your thoughts about how we should run the projects are very welcome.

[ZeussS]

With that in mind, this is the proposed approach:

 

Project Redemption: Updating the Codex

 

Excellent.

This is where I think energies should be directed first... anything to help level the playing field while the new dex is in development. :P

[Hemal]

Indeed - and probably less effort as well.

[Arioch]

Im all in for Project Unforgiven, and Redemtion also sounds nice. But we will have to show some care when it comes to fluff. We could try to bring up some new stuff, but lets stick to what we know, at least as a start. Not that we should stay conservative (that seems to have been the fault of our present codex) but I have heard many ideas that simply cant be done, because it strays to much from the original concept. We are spacemarines, and we are Dark Angels, but how to get the correct blend will be difficult. But I say lets go for it! For the Lion!

[Hemal]

You've got a PROPER Space marine to keep you honest....

[krewl]

With that in mind, this is the proposed approach:

 

Project Redemption: Updating the Codex

 

Excellent.

This is where I think energies should be directed first... anything to help level the playing field while the new dex is in development. ;)

 

I whole heartedly agree with the split into an update (think PDF codex like the old blood angels PDF.) and a new 5th edition expanded codex.

No new units or characters but fixing things like all wargear which should be the same. (I disagree strongly that because we are DA we are different so we should have 1 shot CML's for example, a bolter is a bolter is a bolter, and so should it be for all standard SM gear.)

 

So I would suggest just taking our codex and going by each entry with the suggestion on what we should change and where.

E.g. Dreadnoughts should split into 2 entries like CSM (normal and venerable), but no ironclad as that would be adding units.

 

That would be the good with the bad when we "normalise" with codex SM, so also the good things like a 5 points stormbolter on a rhino should change to 10 points even if that is to our disadvantage. This would be to avoid fandex overpoweredness and would promote acceptance.

 

So I would suggest starting with and index of wargear we have that is different, and fixing that to current stats, then going through all FOC sections of the armylist and fix options and point costs there.

[FerociousBeast]

I'm glad to see this project starting, and I offer my whole-hearted support!

 

I am also glad to see that this project will be led, worked upon, and completed by Dark Angel players since the DA mods will be participating. One of the problems with the Codex Levelling Project was that it was led and worked upon primarily by people who had no real vested interest in most of the armies they were looking at. This was also a strength of sorts, in that it prevented anything from getting too wacky, but it ultimately scuttled the project in my opinion.

 

That said, I would propose that the strategy we employ be varied a little bit. I've stated this elsewhere, but I will repeat it here with further explanation.

 

I think that this project should come in three phases, with three distinct outputs:

 

Phase One — Codex Redemption, Part 1: Update all unit stats, point costs, and rules to correspond to those in Codex Space Marines, only where the stats, costs, or rules in Codex Dark Angels are clearly out of date. For example, the stats, cost, and rules of the drop pod.

 

Phase Two — Codex Redemption, Part 2: Add to the Phase One document those new units created in Codex Space Marines that seem like they should clearly also be in Codex Dark Angels. For example, the Land Raider Redeemer.

 

Phase Three — Codex Unforgiven: Add to the Phase Two document a few new units and rules of the community's devising.

 

My Phase Two and Phase Three are pretty much the same thing as the proposed two projects, though in my model Codex Unforgiven builds upon Codex Redemption rather than being a completely separate project. (I don't really see any conceivable way that something we decide belongs in the codex in one project we would decide does NOT belong in the codex in another.) But of course my main difference is in the far, far more conservative Phase One.

 

I believe we need a Phase One as I've described it. Primarily because, hopeless idealist that I am, if I take part in a project like this, I want to see it bear real fruit. And, while Games Workshop may be influenced by this forum in their design of a future codex, I do not believe that they would release an update to our current codex based on either Codex Redemption or Codex Unforgiven as described in this thread's OP. I am frankly more than a little skeptical that the GW of today would consider an update to the codex along the lines of my Phase One either, but I firmly believe that that would be the best shot we have at getting an update NOW rather than simply influencing the design of the next codex in the FUTURE.

 

In summary, I see the currently proposed projects as possibly influencing a future Dark Angel codex, but not having any real benefit to our official codex situation right now. In order to maximize our chances at the best possible outcomes, I believe creating all three of these documents will not only influence future Dark Angel codexes, but also give us a fighting chance at spurring GW on to release an update to tide us over in the meantime.

[Tomevans]

You've got a PROPER Space marine to keep you honest....

 

Crimson Fists, PROPER Space marines? You can't even handle a few measly Orks, never mind re writing such a hallowed tome as Codex: DA. You aren't even first founding, silly young whippersnapper. Respect your elders and betters :D

[Gillyfish]

Thanks for the feedback FB.

 

Project Redemption may well lead to your suggested Phase One - that is up for debate at the beginning of the project (as I said, we need to have clear and agreed goals to work towards).

 

I would actually like us to do something a little more radical than Phase 2 and 3 - the Space Marine and Blood Angel codexes are good examples to bring up here - near identical units may be available in different parts of the book. Assault squads and Dreadnoughts are obvious examples. I see this project as being about not only the units and their rules but the structure of the army as well. But, like everything else, that's open to discussion and debate.

[Hemal]

Lol touche' !!

[chaplain belisarius]

who are the dark angels?

 

Basically the DA are codex except for the deathwing, ravenwing and all characters are members of the inner circle (fearless?).

 

Thats how i see the DA, we dont need to go silly here...lets just use KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid!)

 

:)

[Deathwing]

KISS is good and all to start with, but once the points and stats are updated, then you can start going over the top with unique units and rules (see Space Wolves & Blood Angels).

 

This is certainly interesting and I'll do what I can to help. I remember the Dark Angels forum here initiated the Codex 3.5 change a few years back so I don't see why it couldn't do so again.

[chaplain belisarius]

Something similar to the old codex...take assault, tactical, devastators, scouts, tanks from CSM. HQ will be different (perhaps make them fearless, option to take a 3 wound reclusiarch/interrogator chaplain)

 

Then take deathwing and ravenwing (who are what define the DA along with the fearless hq).

 

I dont think we should be able to take sternguard, vanguard, ironclad dreads or thunderfires (the Codex marines need their special toys too...)

 

Id be happy with something like that....wouldnt you? :)

[Okidus]

is there enough wrong w the current codex to warrant this?

cant you just update the points for new gear and call it a day?

[FerociousBeast]

I'll count that as a vote for my "Phase One" :P

[HiveFleetEzekial]

Tactical Squads == Idea to bring ever thing even with Regular marines. Give all our Sarg Power weapons and Give us back Plasma Goodness. I.E. Cheep Plasma guns and Cannons. (don't want to get to greedy but with a Ten man Squad give a Plasma Cannon Free )

 

Devistators === same as the Tactical Plasma, Plasma, Plasma, Cheep Cheep Cheep.

 

Beating a dead Chaos worshiper here but Plasma is a double edged power sword. Great Firepower vs Risk of the Marine getting his face melted off. In my mind it is a Fare Trade off for keeping the points the same.

 

Example Dark Angels and there Plasma Cannons. They were cheeper for us and many of us took advantage of that rule. If you go back fair enough on Bolter and Chainsword i'm sure you will still find All the other Chapters winning about us having cheep Plasma. THERE were a lot of postings!!!!.

GW payed attention to this and we lost that edge.

Was it unfair that we had this in our rule book????? I don't think so. I made up for us not having outer things and did lend its self to the Dark Angel FLUFF and style of Play.

 

 

Just... NO. 'cheap plasma' is not an 'edge' we were ever supposed to have in the first place. 'Plasma' is not our mainstay weapon. It is not who, nor what, Dark Angels are! If you go back further into our history in the game, nevermind threads on a single message board!, you'd see just how completely 'left field' that was of them to put into our codex back then. We have it in no more, or less, quantities than any other chapter. Being 'older' hasa no significant bearing on that. The only time it seemed to be our 'thing' was durring the pamphlet-dex known as 3rd edition. When they stripped away alot of our original unique options, and 'threw us a bone'. Nothing more. All that dex did was make us out to be no more than a 'point and click', Stand and shoot army that used nearly nothing but plasma weaponry. Remember who our primarch was. The master tactician. He'd be rolling in his grave... err tomb, now, seeing people suggesting we ignore his teachings for tactical flexibilty in favor of a single weapon type.. simply because 'we're older'.

 

 

Keep plasma weaponry at the same cost and availablity as standard Codex Space Marines. We are not 'uber shootie plasama freaks'!

 

If anything, the only 'preference' for plasma weaponry ever shown, in images or fluff, has been for the pistol varient by our various characters. If there's to be any show towards that, maybe make it a standard side-arm instead of the regular bolt-pistol. But that'd still be pushing it.

[Grubbslinger]

I am really interested in the ideas behind making new units for the DA. Project Unforgiven gives us a chance to decide what we want to be rather then GW saying what we are (though since they created DA and you know Warhammer, I suppose they have the right to do what they want with them. :lol: ) Anyways, I'll be happy to define what I think DA are. Im pretty new to the Unforgiven but I'll help as much as I can.

[roachvan]

I like the way things are going so far.

 

Here are some of my thoughts on this

1. a good way to let everyone have a say on the units, might be to do a poll so everyone can vote on it.

this way everyone can have a say in it and the majority wins. Everyone will have units they like in the book and some they dislike.

2. If you look at how everything's been written for 5th ed, it looks like they're looking back at 2nd ed.

So, we should be asking, What defined the DA in 2nd ed and bring that forward.

[Dedecus]

I'm with Zeke, even though I loves my plasma. This is just a thought though, but since the new blood angels codex gives all their units a chance to get the red thirst, what if ours did the same, only with intractable?

 

**edit for typo**

[Gillyfish]

Thanks again for all the suggestions guys and please keep them coming. I'll leave this thread to brew over the weekend and then try to draft some more detailed outlines for each project, taking into account the feedback so far. We can then discuss those with the aim of coming to an agreed point about the way forward within the next week or two.

[chaplain belisarius]

im interested to see how this goes...i just want cheaper tacticals! :huh:

[Tomevans]

Yes, same point tactical squads are essential and will bring the Greenwing back to wider use. Rules to represent our tactical acumen would also be useful and help give us a USP over the other chapters. Perhaps 1 or 2 extra special units on top of the DW and RW, but as many of you have said there is no need to go any further than that. We are not as deviant as the Space Wolves so we should not have so many special units, just a couple to give our armies a unique touch.