Creating a new Dark Angel Codex.

[chaplain belisarius]

I agree...lets not go crazy...just make the "normal" DA cost as much as codex marines and maybe tweak the deathwing and ravenwing slightly?

 

im interested in where this goes...

[Arioch]

I think we need to give our other units some focus, not just death and ravenwing. Giving them intractable is a good way to make them more special, like BA and Spacewolfs got some specialrules for their tacticals. Something that sets them apart from the rest. As to plasma I agree that we should not focus to much on this, but a small hint to previous use of this could be nice.

[schad1974]

OK the Plasma Idea is out there..... you are right.

 

I still Support my idea for the Deathwing Sarg. to have something a little extra and make him stand out. All terminator Sarg for that matter. An extra attack? An extra Weapon or Wound? We do have this in the way of our Captain But something just a few steps below. An upgrade to a "Hero" option for the Deathwing would work. This give the Player the option to keep things "as is" or to add a little extra to there deathwing squad with out having to get a Chaplin.

Deathwing Armies keep your Troops limited and your points very restricted. That left over 5 or 10 points could be used for an extra punch in you Sarg rather than a chainfist.

 

No Plasma eh???? then what about the Powerwepon or plasma pistol for the Sarg in Tactical squads? that Might make a difference for the Points in a Quick fix.

I never have a problem with our troops being a little more than regular Marines. Keeping our 5 or 10 man squads is also fine. I can live with it. I was Just suggesting something different for them that no one else would have access to.... I don't even have a problem with not having some of the new models in our army. The Landspeeder or Bike scouts just dont fit with the Dark Angels. Our current Codex and how our scouts are is fine with me.

I just invision A Dark Angel Sarg as a Somber, Removed, Quiet, leader. A Monk with power armor. With Battle ragging all around, our Dark Angels have no problem taking time to say there prayers assess the battle field and the next moments jump into battle with out a second thought or word. How can our Army list reflect this???? Intractible was a good thing. Fearless is overkill for the boys in Green.

[publius]

As I said before, one of the first things we would need to do in Project Unforgiven before getting anywhere near actual rules is to clarify exactly what we think the Dark Angels are. We'll probably put some threads in the rules development sub-forum to do just that, once everyone is happy with the overall direction of the projects.

 

I wholeheartedly second and third this. In my opinion this is how you keep a project from getting too schizophrenic. The Dark Angels should have some specific direction, and this is something that has been especially difficult with our chapter, and with all of the divergent opinions.

 

Plus it helps people stay focused and stay away from "I want Azrael to have a str 8 powersword and a 2+ invulnerable save and always hit on a 3+ because he's like so awesome!" lines of thought. Perhaps a ground rule should be that for each and every non-balance/updating related change, you need to state clearly why you think it should be a good change, and why it will fit with the Dark Angels theme and background? Said justification needs to be better than "so and so unit needs more omph and should be awesome!"

 

 

Anyways I'm glad we're doing this, it gives us Dark Angels something to move onwards from, instead of wallowing in despair over the state of the official codex. I actually came up with a bunch of ideas some time ago for two different Dark Angels revisions, one a simple "faq-like" fix to the current codex, and one that went further and made substantial changes. Maybe I'll dig it out if I'm able to.

[breng77]

publius, I completely agree all too often this type of thing gets out of hand where people want every unit to be the best ever unit and also the cheapest. While I do think Azrael needs a boost so that he is an option worth taking, I also think that it should be within reason.

[chaplain belisarius]

Ive been thinking and how about-

 

bring points values of greenwing in line with CSM

 

All characters are in the deathwing, so are fearless.

 

Deathwing and ravenwing are ok...maybe tweak them a bit, but i reckon they are fine how they are...

 

All Dark angels get this-

 

INTRACTABLE-all dark angels are stubborn (except the inner circle who are fearless)

 

Any thoughts on this? It sums up the DA and isnt too over the top...

[HsojVvad]

I have a few ideas I like that is fluffy, but think most will hate it, but I will leave it till we start making ideas. As for the poll, I like it so we can see what the majority likes or dislikes, but it should never ever be a majority rules codex. We will have to have a commitee or Inner Circle who makes the final judgement. For example say 98% of people want DA to be a plasma army. The inner cirlce will have the final say and if they say no to plasma army then it's no and no more debate over it.

 

Yes we will not be able to make everyone happy here, but before we get into this project, we should all agree to, if our idea is not used we agree with the inner circle and not quit and storm out. Even if 99.9% of the people disagree with what the Inner Circle says, we have to agree to it and accpet their judgement.

 

Hopefully this Innercirle will not be biased, and will know what the DA should be. Maybe we can vote for the people to become our Inner Circle. At least this way, they were voted in, by us.

 

Again, I don't want to see all these people become of the project and then someone quitting because they didn't have their rule used or what ever. Yes we all should agree but sometimes we just shouldn't have some stuff in their.

 

So when we creat the codex from the ground up, maybe we should have some Dark Angel Bible rules. Rules that we adhere to fluff. Also rules that DA will adhere to as well. Something like:

 

No allies,

no plasma, or yes plasma. (Is DA a plasma shooty army?) (Is DA a shooty army or CC army?)

DW, RW,GR do we have an IW (Iron Wing for fluff) or not?

[Arvendragon]

Who don't we simply make everything by vote. It is what the majority of the community wants.

 

And we could have a specially selected team to moderate and to keep us in line.

 

 

According to established fluff, we are the chapter with the oldest technology right? Besides the Deathwing and Ravenwing and the presence of the Inner Circle, we're otherwise a Codex chapter. We have no genetic failures like the Death Company and aren't too obvious like the Space Wolves. I think that our "special" units would probably have to be just more on the DW and RW, maybe something from the Inner Circle, or use "differing technology" as an excuse.

[Bringer of Redemption]

Who don't we simply make everything by vote. It is what the majority of the community wants.

 

And we could have a specially selected team to moderate and to keep us in line.

Actually, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. It would be as good a way as any to make it a community effort, and we have the mods to make sure that we don't create an overpowered codex.

 

--BoR

[Tomevans]

The problem with a straight vote is that killiness would almost certainly be the major consideration for what to vote for for a large number of members. Perhaps it may be useful to fully discuss multiple options for one particular unit/ special rule etc. and after 2,3,4 or however number of acceptable options have been thought of that fit with the background and fullf as well as being viable on the tabletop and only after this has been completed will the ideas be put to vote. This means that every single topic has the rose tinted glasses firmly taken off, stomped on and the remnants thrown out of the window before it gets too far out of hand.

 

The intractable rule is a good idea, but specific reasons why it should be/ should not be included need to be discussed. The DA are famous for well planned campaigns and tactics, perhaps this background is not best represented by having no negative leadership modifiers as this implies the unit is losing its personal battle, something that the DA rarely have to consider. Just a little thought.

[Shadey]

the things that makes the Dark Angels unique.

 

For the purposes of this project it might be a good idea to really determine exactly what is unique about the Dark Angels, both background and rules-wise. This idea was mentioned before but it is worth repeating.

 

Unfortunately there is very little that Dark Angels have that is truly unique anymore.

 

On one side, I think "nice, brushing up the codex is certainly needed".

 

On the other side "but this won't be official... AND we will be doing free work for a company that is profit geared".

 

Those are my thoughts at the moment

 

As long as we do a decent job of balancing probably the only place we won't be able to use an unofficial codex would be tournaments.

 

I also seriously doubt GW will take much consideration of any rules we develop so doing 'free work' is not really a consideration. Tbh, even if GW did take something from our work I'd be happy as long as it makes a good codex. Heck, I'd be honoured.

 

I would like it if the Dark Angels had a more competitive army list. Presently my Dark Angels have fallen by the wayside in favour of my orks and my DIY chapter (Dark Angels successor) but it would be nice to be able to use the Dark Angels rules for my DIY marines. Let me know if I can do anything to help.

 

Btw I have the old Angels of Death codex if anyone wants me to go over it.

 

Hey maybe we could have a rule, roll a d6 on a 1, your army packs itself up and buggers off after a fallen rumour :P.

[Hemal]

Uniqueness:

 

Guilt - unique amongst the loyal Astartes, DA are guilty that their Legion split...

 

The Fallen - the driver for their guilt

 

The Deathwing - the ONLY force that deploy en-masse in Termie armour

 

The Ravenwing - an elite amongst rapid response squads

 

The Sword of Secrets

[Belial212]

I agree with Zeke from earlier, no need to get carried away with Plasma. Our Primarch was famous for being a master tactician and the Dark Angels are still famous for that. We should look at increasing the options for synergy between units to allow the whole to be more effective than the sum of its parts. The age of our chapter should be reflected in a greater variety of combat systems and wargear options that may have fallen out of favour within the Imperium or the Forgeworlds. Like the Space Wolves, I think we should be able to field a greater variety of weapons and equipment.

 

Another previous post I'd like to address. I disagree that the Space Wolves are more mysterious than the Dark Angels also. Most Dark Angels don't even know their chapter's history and when a member is considered for elevation the Deathwing, he sometimes disappears instead. Forever. The Dark Angels maintain control over their successor chapters and keep their own heresy a secret. They are the single chapter that the Inquisition SHOULD be eliminating from the Imperium. The Space Wolves are just insubordinate and hard to control, but the Dark Angels actually abandon campaigns to hunt the Fallen, putting their personal goals ahead of the Imperium at large. Our new codex should reflect the degree to which we are mysterious and self-serving, even though that service is what we perceive as a penance, it is more that that, it is also about selfishly safeguarding our own future.

 

I understand that we don't want to overpower ourselves and I agree, giving Azrael 12 attacks on the charge with a S8 power weapon and 2+ INV save is not the direction we want to go. But saying that Deathwing and Ravenwing do not need an overhaul I feel is also not true. If we had designed the Stormraven on this forum, people would say it is unfair. Do we want Terminators overhauled in our codex where that should happen or in the next Ultramarines codex? For instance, all the plasma lovers. What about a Termie plasma system shoulder mounted, like the Cyclone missile launcher? Any reason we couldn't have more Terminator options? And in terms of synergy, what about allowing Deathwing squads to assualt off the deep strike if coming in on a Ravenwing teleport homer? Tactics that combine multiple types of units promote their use and also increase the chances that people will buy different unit types, safe guarding the multiple revenue streams that have been talked about earlier.

 

My last point. We should be able to throw our ideas around, no matter how many and how ludicrous they may seem. We can shoot them down, and most probably will have to be, so we can decide on a set of rules that fit into 1 volume. But let's not be afraid to explore a lot of possibilities and have fun with it!

[Alys Dwr]

Just thought i'd chime in my support for this. While i haven't been playing much on the table or participating on the B&C much recently i'll definately try and keep up. I have got a few ideas which i think are modest and sensible but could go some way to making our army more individual. I'll get on with jotting them down and throw in my tuppence when the time comes.

 

Al

[mysideofthemirror]

Looking at the regular space marine codex there's something I think we should consider. The regular codex has the mounted assault rule for their captains, I think we should expand upon that.

 

Our captains should give a version of mounted assault, making Ravenwing squads troops, and another version making Deathwing Squads troops (if the captain has terminator armor).

 

This gives us something a bit different from the regular codex, and allows us more options than we have now.

 

It also allows us to make Belial a bit more exciting than he is currently, and allows ravenwing players to play with a cheaper HQ if they feel like it.

[Hemal]

Looking at the regular space marine codex there's something I think we should consider. The regular codex has the mounted assault rule for their captains, I think we should expand upon that.

 

Our captains should give a version of mounted assault, making Ravenwing squads troops, and another version making Deathwing Squads troops (if the captain has terminator armor).

 

This gives us something a bit different from the regular codex, and allows us more options than we have now.

 

It also allows us to make Belial a bit more exciting than he is currently, and allows ravenwing players to play with a cheaper HQ if they feel like it.

 

 

This is one of teh more frequently touted ideas - and takes the precedence opf teh Loganwing and the CSM Bikewing...

I actually like the idea of allowing DW to assault off a deepstrike when on a RW homing beacon - perhaps a limited version of Heroic intervention linked to the RW wargear item?

[Tomevans]

Looking at the regular space marine codex there's something I think we should consider. The regular codex has the mounted assault rule for their captains, I think we should expand upon that.

 

Our captains should give a version of mounted assault, making Ravenwing squads troops, and another version making Deathwing Squads troops (if the captain has terminator armor).

 

This gives us something a bit different from the regular codex, and allows us more options than we have now.

 

It also allows us to make Belial a bit more exciting than he is currently, and allows ravenwing players to play with a cheaper HQ if they feel like it.

 

 

This is one of teh more frequently touted ideas - and takes the precedence opf teh Loganwing and the CSM Bikewing...

I actually like the idea of allowing DW to assault off a deepstrike when on a RW homing beacon - perhaps a limited version of Heroic intervention linked to the RW wargear item?

 

Both of you come up with good ideas. Something that makes the DW/RW combo more effective would represent the fluff role they both play whilst also improving their role on the table. We would have to be careful not to leave the Greenwing behind by just upping the DW/RW however this would be a good start.

[Grand Master Neo]

Looking at the regular space marine codex there's something I think we should consider. The regular codex has the mounted assault rule for their captains, I think we should expand upon that.

 

Our captains should give a version of mounted assault, making Ravenwing squads troops, and another version making Deathwing Squads troops (if the captain has terminator armor).

 

This gives us something a bit different from the regular codex, and allows us more options than we have now.

 

It also allows us to make Belial a bit more exciting than he is currently, and allows ravenwing players to play with a cheaper HQ if they feel like it.

 

 

This is one of teh more frequently touted ideas - and takes the precedence opf teh Loganwing and the CSM Bikewing...

I actually like the idea of allowing DW to assault off a deepstrike when on a RW homing beacon - perhaps a limited version of Heroic intervention linked to the RW wargear item?

 

Both of you come up with good ideas. Something that makes the DW/RW combo more effective would represent the fluff role they both play whilst also improving their role on the table. We would have to be careful not to leave the Greenwing behind by just upping the DW/RW however this would be a good start.

 

this is a damn good idea but as you just said the gw would become somewhat left behind and end up just giving firing cover when necessary or just become a second line of defence if emperor forgive the dw and rw should fall (not that that is very likely but u need to plan for these thngs)

 

if the there was an option to upgrade the teleporter home used by the rw (at an additional points cost) then this should go someway to levelling out the possible overuse of this system (let's face it, everyone will jump on the bandwagon of rw+dw and forget about gw otherwise)

 

i definitely feel that there should be a mch closer link between the ic and libbys as well. there is nothing tying them together other than in the stories of libbys assisting in interrogations

 

i don't necessarily think there should be a no allies rule (as good as that was) but obviously no allying with the obvious (codex, ork eldar etc.) we should be able to ally ourselves with any force in the imperium but have some rule of randomness as such where things may be discovered and we need to deal with it

 

thats my 2 cents for now anyway

 

forgot to mention i'm trained as a web developer and computer graphics engineer so when it comes to finalising the whole thing i may be of some use to you all there

[Tomevans]

Perhaps when an Int Chappie and a Terminator Librarian are taken together the librarian gains access to another psychic power or special rule that represents the weakening of moral or mind under interrogation. Perhaps every action involving units which contain either the Int Chappie or Librarian gives an additional -1 to the ld modifier role. E.g. Chappie's unit fires on Unit A and causes a morale check. Unit A take that morale check with an additional -1 modifier to represent the influence of the Int Chappie and Librarian working together.

[Grand Master Neo]

Perhaps when an Int Chappie and a Terminator Librarian are taken together the librarian gains access to another psychic power or special rule that represents the weakening of moral or mind under interrogation. Perhaps every action involving units which contain either the Int Chappie or Librarian gives an additional -1 to the ld modifier role. E.g. Chappie's unit fires on Unit A and causes a morale check. Unit A take that morale check with an additional -1 modifier to represent the influence of the Int Chappie and Librarian working together.

 

thats sounds really good. i've started working on costings of troops to make them more in line with the c:sm. i won't put them up yet coz i wanna see what else people come up with that might effect the points of da marines etc.

[publius]

Voting on changes seems like an interesting mechanism. I personally would like to wonder how that turns out.

 

I like the idea of characters (i.e. members of Deathwing) being fearless, as well as the "stubborn" universal special rule being granted to intractable tactical squads. There is precedent for this, before it was removed in the 4th edition Dark Angels codex. Plus it has the nice side effect of adding to the "tactical" nature of the army; with less of a risk of failing morale checks a Dark Angels player is better able to ensure his/her units will do perform as expected.

 

I also highly agree that we should bring the points costs for our troops in line with the recent codexes, and above all else do something about how inflexible our options are! In my opinion the overly draconian restrictions on how we're allowed to outfit our squad have most strongly led to the decline in the number of Dark Angels players since the last codex.

 

----

 

As for the more drastic changes, as usual there are plenty of new rules being proposed, but very little about the background motivation for each change. So far, the themes behind the Dark Angels currently suggested (plus a few of my own) in this thread are:

 

1. Dark Angels are very tactical minded, stemming from their Primarch

2. Dark Angels don't give up easily, in the face of steep odds. This "stubbornness" stems from their primarch.

3. Dark Angels today are driven by the guilt and the shame of their fallen

4. Deathwing and Ravenwing companies (knightly theme?)

5. Dark Angels are very ancient, and thus have lots of mysteries and lots of festivals

 

Extraneous stuff (part of our identity, but not as central as the above): Plains World, access to lots of artifacts, stemming from point 5.

 

What else can people think of? Perhaps if we nail down what exactly it means for the Dark Angels to be Dark Angels, that will better guide future rules brainstorming, which is currently a little spotty.

[Tomevans]

Personally I would focus more on our mysterious side and less so on the warrior monk side. Obviously still keep robed HQ's etc but focus on other things, as the warrior monk thing is more to do with the Consecrators then the DA as a whole. Focus should be shifted to our single-minded nature and our determination to fulfill our mission, as well as out tacitcal acumen. Warrior monkness cannot be easily represented on the table top but tactical acumen and determination can.

[Grand Master Neo]

one thing that definitely needs to be bought back is cypher and the story behind him. gw started to get somewhere with him but then just removed him altogether from aspect of the game. some updated rules and a more indepth yet not revealing styoryline shoud be worked on to bring back the tie between ourselves and the fallen/chaos

[Vandiyan]

This post does not go over every unit, just a few that I had the time to think over last night.

 

Just to start I feel this would work the best for the increased points cost of Dark Angels plasma weaponry.

 

Plasma weapons DO NOT get hot! Yet retain the points cost from CDA.

 

This is to show that they still retain some information that has been lost by the Imperium, yet still keep things somewhat balanced.

 

Here are how I feel the rules sets could/should be for some Dark Angels units. NOTE these are all additions to the current rules in CDA.

 

Deathwing

- Fearless

- Feel No Pain

- Relentless

- Counter Attack

- Combat Tactics

- Add the option to include up to 5 more Terminators for 43 points per model

- Add the option to include up to 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 Terminators

- Storm Shields work like CSM

 

This is to represent that they are the best of the best. They are incredibly hard to kill, but still can be killed. They are the most skilled of all the chapters and I

feel these rules (if added) will reflect that. Yes it does seem a little overboard, I will admit, but it does fit the fluff quite well.

However for game play balance I would be willing to admit that "Feel No Pain" may be going a bit far. So I would be willing to remove that. As far as points costs are concerned they are fine as they are. Comparable to even CSM. Just unit size and equipment options have been upgraded.

Maybe have the option to get Plasma Cannons?

 

Greenwing

- Stubborn

- Combat Tactics

 

-Tactical Squads

I feel with the current points cost for this unit is justified if "Stubborn" is added in. Add in Combat Tactics and even in combat squads they can be nasty. Just update the points costs for their unit size and equipment to be comparable to CSM and I feel that this unit will be equal if not better.

 

-Scout Squads

Upgrade options to reflect CSM, make it a Troop choice, and this unit now is on par with it's points cost reflected in CDA.

 

-Assault Squads

Upgrade options to reflect CSM and this unit is worth it's CDA points cost.

 

Ravenwing

- Stubborn

- Feel No Pain

- Counter Attack

- Skilled Rider

- Combat Tactics

 

At least for the bikes this would make sense. They are up there if not equal to the White Scars in skill for using bikes. The Feel No Pain is to represent the shot hitting a part of the bike, or the model manuvering out of the way just in time.

 

As for Land Speeders upgrade the options to reflect CSM, give them the ability to Deep Strike (in place of Feel No Pain), and this unit is now worth it's points cost.

 

These are just some of my thoughts. Nothing solid yet. I would like to hear some C&C on these ideas.

[Grubbslinger]

I have been mulling over some ideas for awhile. Here are some quick thoughts while I post at work.

 

To me, the main unique factor of the DA is the Hunt for the Fallen. I think we can come up with some really unique ideas based off of that. For example, I was thinking about the Space Wolf codex and I remembered that the Lone Wolf almost made me play them instead of DA. I really liked the idea of a single unit with one sole purpose in mind. Hunting the Fallen is the same sole purpose as finding a good death in combat.

 

What if, when you took a interrogator chaplian, you were allowed to take a five man squad of Hunters. These were specially trained to find and pursue the Fallen. I know that the Ravenwing usually do this but it makes sense to me that there might be a some special dudes to hunt high priority targets or something like that (say a squad always looking for Cypher). The squad could be given special rules, such as primary target allowing them a bonus against one unit on the enemys list chosen by the player, and maybe even some special wargear. This would help out Greenwing as this adds in another elite choice that isnt Dreadnought/Deathwing. Just a thought of how hunting the fallen could be turned into a play movement.

 

I totally agree with synergy ideas that have been put up. I esp. like the idea of the Deathwing assaulting from Ravenwing teleport homers. Might be possible to take this one step further and develop a sort of Chapter Tactics based off of the character you take. IE Take Deathwing master, can assualt from homers, take Chaplain get some sort repent you fallen fools you! rule, etc.