Creating a new Dark Angel Codex.

[Alys Dwr]

- Add the option to include up to 5 more Terminators for 43 points per model

Isn't GW were moving away from awkward numbers of points? If we keep with that then 45 ponts wouldn't be too over the top, especially considering the boot load of special rules they would have.

*Feel no Pain on Ravenwing*

The Feel No Pain is to represent the shot hitting a part of the bike, or the model manuvering out of the way just in time.

I think this might be a bit much and the name of the rule doesn't fit the justification all that well. I like the concept though... so maybe a 6+ inv save or something like that instead?

 

 

Al

[FerociousBeast]

I like your idea, Grubbslinger. See the Battle Council link in my sig for something very similar.

[Tomevans]

I have been mulling over some ideas for awhile. Here are some quick thoughts while I post at work.

 

To me, the main unique factor of the DA is the Hunt for the Fallen. I think we can come up with some really unique ideas based off of that. For example, I was thinking about the Space Wolf codex and I remembered that the Lone Wolf almost made me play them instead of DA. I really liked the idea of a single unit with one sole purpose in mind. Hunting the Fallen is the same sole purpose as finding a good death in combat.

 

What if, when you took a interrogator chaplian, you were allowed to take a five man squad of Hunters. These were specially trained to find and pursue the Fallen. I know that the Ravenwing usually do this but it makes sense to me that there might be a some special dudes to hunt high priority targets or something like that (say a squad always looking for Cypher). The squad could be given special rules, such as primary target allowing them a bonus against one unit on the enemys list chosen by the player, and maybe even some special wargear. This would help out Greenwing as this adds in another elite choice that isnt Dreadnought/Deathwing. Just a thought of how hunting the fallen could be turned into a play movement.

 

I totally agree with synergy ideas that have been put up. I esp. like the idea of the Deathwing assaulting from Ravenwing teleport homers. Might be possible to take this one step further and develop a sort of Chapter Tactics based off of the character you take. IE Take Deathwing master, can assualt from homers, take Chaplain get some sort repent you fallen fools you! rule, etc.

 

This is a very good idea, but we have an entire successor chapter hunting for Cypher. :) Off the top of my head I think it is the Disciples of Caliban. However, the rest of your post is spot on, single mindedness and the hunt for the fallen are our main unique selling points and focusing on them is essential. As the Greenwing do not know of the Fallen their rules could be tailored to the tactical acumen side, whilst the DW/RW can focus on the Fallen hunting. This would give all parts of our army an interesting and unique part to them whilst still keeping them as a coherant force. I especially like the idea of the DW assaulting from RW teleport homers.

[Vandiyan]

- Add the option to include up to 5 more Terminators for 43 points per model

Isn't GW were moving away from awkward numbers of points? If we keep with that then 45 ponts wouldn't be too over the top, especially considering the boot load of special rules they would have.

*Feel no Pain on Ravenwing*

The Feel No Pain is to represent the shot hitting a part of the bike, or the model manuvering out of the way just in time.

I think this might be a bit much and the name of the rule doesn't fit the justification all that well. I like the concept though... so maybe a 6+ inv save or something like that instead?

 

 

Al

 

I agree on the points cost for Deathwing could be at 45 points per model.

 

Also I agree that rather then Feel No Pain it could be a 6+ Inv. Save provided they moved at least 6 inches.

 

I also agree that the Hunt for the Fallen needs to take priority in some situations. I remember there being a Mission in 3rd Ed. where you rolled off on all of the squads you killed in battle. If you rolled a 4+ they had Fallen in them or information about the Fallen from one of the guys in the unit (be is an item or getting one of them to talk before killing them). It would be cool to have this get incorporated into the army as a whole. Yet I feel with the way 5th Ed. is that might be too over powering.

 

I need to find my Angels of Death codex again and re-read through it and see if I can find anything that would help out with some brainstorming.

 

Also I do know there is another couple of books coming out that talk about the Dark Angels (One is Dark Angels VS Night Lords, the other is a Horus Heresy novel).

[Belial212]

I agree with Tomevans, most of the Greenwing don't know what's going on, so it would be more logical to make them more like codex marines, while keeping the Ravenwing and Deathwing more independent and different.

 

When I suggested deepstriking off a Ravenwing homer, I recognize that would make a powerful combination, but at the same time, to make that effect happen, you need the Ravenwing to get in position and survive. You are putting the Ravenwing in a vulnerable position to maximize the effectiveness of the Deathwing Heroic Intervention. Considering how easy it is to kill off a deep striking Deathwing squad with massed firepower when they deep strike because they are clumped together, it would be nice to find a way to make their assualt onto the board more effective without having to pay for Landraiders to put them all in. If that feels too powerful, what about Assualt droppods, i.e. they count as assualt vehicles and they have to target a Ravenwing homer? Forces the player to invest additional points in order to be able to use that ability and GW will be happy because now you have to buy 3 kits every time you want to use this tactic.

 

I also think Feel No Pain is sadly lacking from Deathwing lists, particularly since I fight a lot of Chaos and Blood Angels and both lists are jam packed full of it. Apothecaries should grant FNP in my opinion, in line with Codex SM, but I don't see any reason why the Army has to fight with only one. Same thing as banners. The Command squad carries the Company Standard, but why not allow other Squads to take Sacred Standards, particularly if accompanied by a Chaplain? That might be the advantage of taking a Chaplain as a Second HQ, having a Chaplain or maybe better an Int-Chap allows any Deathwing/Ravenwing/Veterans (For the Greenwing players) squad to take a Sacred Standard for xx points. There are 4 Sacred standards I believe? So max of 4 of these in the army, each potentially granting an additional attack or a slightly different bonus relating to the standard itself, sort of the way Space Wolf sagas are different? That might be very cool too, and we could make them as expensive as they need to be.

[pueriexdeus]

Been following this and other threads on the re-vamp DA Codex for quite some time. And now I feel that I actually have something to say.

 

Since most people are complaining the we (DA) don't have. I decided to map out several lists DA, UM, BA, SW to see what the real difference is.

 

After doing so I can concur that we do pay more for practically everything compared to all the other Codi. And what I discovered is that we consistently have a higher BS, A, W, and I compared to most all of the rest of GW's IC's. We only lack in WS, and/or Ld. So I will caution the Frater about asking for parity with UM/BA/SW. Two of the three have lower BS, W, A, and I, than our IC's. So are we (DA) really over priced???

 

After crunching the #'s the real only major points discrepancy is in the FA slots. Our Assault Sqd's, and Bikes are ridiculously more expensive than the rest, with The exception of the BA who can only field a VV Sqd as a FA option at 100+ points more than anyone else. Though our Bikes do get the free Beacon.

 

Since we seem to have agreed that DA will not have access to SG and VG. And GW has already confirmed our superiority with BS, W, I, and A... Lets use it to our advantage.

 

After looking at what we do have that is better than most I would concur with FB about taking it one step at a time.

 

I propose that we allocate each individual character, IC's, Troops, Elite, FA, and Devs to look at with a fine tooth comb, compare them against the other three (UM/BA/SW the newer Codi) instead of thrashing around within the whole FoC.

 

The things I would like to see is a parity with Wargear availability, stats and points. But not IC's in general, except for a higher WS and IW for the named DA Characters, and a return of Naman, and Ezekial

 

To demonstrate our supposed superiority in Strategy and Tactics;

 

Bring back the let them deploy more units than us rule,

Auspix's, and give Suspensors to our Tac & Dev's Heavy Weapons. Make em stubborn.

Counter Charge,

Heroic Intervention for the DW,

Skilled Rider, Jink (we had them before) and Hit and Run, for the RW. They really should not be in CC anyway.

Is it really too much? We are already paying a premium price anyway.

 

And I will say if were not careful we might get exactly what we ask for.

[Shadey]

I also highly agree that we should bring the points costs for our troops in line with the recent codexes, and above all else do something about how inflexible our options are! In my opinion the overly draconian restrictions on how we're allowed to outfit our squad have most strongly led to the decline in the number of Dark Angels players since the last codex.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head there.

 

Might I suggest we make a title or acronym for the two seperate projects that will identify a thread as beloning to either at a glance.

 

Also it might be better to hold off on most rules discussion until we get a dedicated thread.

[Grand Master Neo]

how does everyone feel about counter attack on the deathwing?

 

they're supposed to be the kind of unit that gets stuck in no matter the odds and i'm sure this would help to show that?

[RayJ]

Counter-Attack on Deathwing makes them too much like Space Wolves (read: Logan Wing) in my opinion, and 45 points is too much to pay for Fearless and Deathwing Assault on a terminator. If you want a nice even points number, think hard about viable options that are not too over the top. The more elegant the solution, the better. I'm not convinced that the cost needs to change though. Wolf Guard in TDA with a powerfist come out to 43 points a model as well, and the 2 units should be fairly comparable once on the table.

 

We have a lot of ideas running around here, some of which are very good. Be sure to suggest these in the actual project threads once they get going. Spilling out ideas here is good to get the creative process running, but you're just gonna have to resubmit your ideas once things actually get started.

[Gillyfish]

RayJ is quite right. At the moment, I'm after feedback on how best to run the projects. That feedback will be used to shape them before we get down to throwing ideas out. Rest assured you will be able to state them again.

 

I really must finish the writing of the detailed project outlines...

[FerociousBeast]

Deathwing should incorporate Heroic Intervention into Deathwing Assault (heck, when 4th ed dex rumors were circulating, that's what we all thought Deathwing Assault was) and stay Fearless. I think that would just about do it to "fix" them, other than the obvious consistency things that need to be fixed.

[Grand Master Neo]

RayJ is quite right. At the moment, I'm after feedback on how best to run the projects. That feedback will be used to shape them before we get down to throwing ideas out. Rest assured you will be able to state them again.

 

I really must finish the writing of the detailed project outlines...

 

one good way to do it would be to take suggestions for a week but don't expand on them then each week discuss and expand on said suggestions. that way it runs like an official meeting and u have deadlines that everybody can follow. then once everything has been discussed list the pro's and cons and make judgements based on that

 

just an idea

[RayJ]

I like the idea of a council or 'Inner Circle' to lead discussion and development. I'm assuming that mods will take up a lot of those responsibilities, but they will definitely need a hand from a few others to make it work.

 

I also think that while focus should be on completing these projects in stages that there should be a team for each project to ensure that they all move forward throughout the process. You could have 2 people working on each one and then have a broader development team working with all 3 groups, made up of probably 2-4 people.

 

This process will do two things to help development move in a timely progression:

 

1) A larger development team will conjure up more ideas to draw from. While most of these ideas will have to be eventually set aside, more creative juices flowing will help find the most elegant and effective solutions. Developers should be people with strong analytical skills that are capable of separating themselves from their work.

 

2) A structured hierarchy will be able to adjudicate decisions based on which direction to take without having to spend too much time in drama about what belongs or is balanced. Regardless of the ideas set forth, it is the responsibility of those at the top to make sure 3 criteria are met: Dark Angels are represented properly, 5th Edition's design philosophy is maintained, and units are effective and balanced. Playtesting will be required for pretty much all of this, and questions of overpowered and over-the-top ideas really need to be stress tested to see if they cause as much of a problem as appears at first glance. A fourth minor goal is to advance the fluff slightly, and large changes to army structure and history should probably be avoided

 

When I worked with gaming companies in the past (mostly with Collectible Card Games), design and development teams usually consisted of 2-4 people. Our team will be a little larger than that, but that is to accommodate multiple projects working in unison. After the initial development stage, playtesters are given documents to work from and typically have a week to provide feedback. The process of revisions and corrections takes place over 3-4 months with a new revision coming every week.

 

This should be our goal, but it will take us longer to pull off if we keep the same intensity of testing done in CCGs. This mostly comes from our games taking 2-5 times longer to play. I will think about ways to speed up playtesting by setting up unit tests to see how the rules interact under certain conditions. Another idea is to play 3-turn games to see the impact of the army in what are usually the deciding turns.

 

I'm sure I will have more ideas as things progress.

[publius]

Looking through my Angels of Death codex again (wow this brings back memories), it seems like the 3 standards (Standards of Devastation, Fortitude, and Retribution) were part of the Dark Angels from the beginning, until they were somewhat unceremoniously removed from the latest edition.

 

To go along with the "streamlining" theme of recent codexes, it may be possible to have them just grant a USR to the squad holding it. Say the Standard of Fortitude grants "Relentless", the Standard of Devastation grants "Counter-Assault", and the Standard of Retribution grants "Preferred Enemy".

 

This way, the people who are like "I want X squad to have Y special rules" can be satisfied, without at the same time going over the top and having even more expensive Deathwing squads. Also there is a precedent for this.

[RayJ]

That is a very elegant solution to that situation, publius, and definitely something I can get behind. The next step is how to grant access to these banners. I'll have a look over my 3rd Edition codex when I get home, but it seems to me a special character unlocking them would be the best solution (and just include the cost of the banner in that character's points). Asmodai and Azrael seem like the best choices in my mind, and this would look sort of like Sicarius's rule in its implementation. Definitely bring this up in the development discussions!

[FerociousBeast]

Since this is where we're talking about it... sacred standards should come only with Brother Bethor (also somewhat unceremoniously dumped), who is perhaps a squad upgrade to the chapter honor guard. (Or Battle Council, as I suggested elsewhere.)

[mysideofthemirror]

I like a lot of the brainstorming going on, and I was thinking about how to incorporate the 'tactical/strategic' aspect of the DA. An easy way to do it would be to include something that's already been printed before. I think the Damocles Command Rhino would be a good fit, perhaps as a dedicated transport option for a command squad?

[JeffJedi]

All I ask is that we don't get any units with the word "Guard" in it.

 

Honorguard, Sternguard,Vanguard, Wolfguard, Sanguinuary Guard.

 

There's just too much guard in the Marines right now. Keep it Command Squads and Company Vets, etc.

[RayJ]

oh come, on. You don't wanna see how awesome the Dark Guard or the Guardian Watchers can be? :)

[Brother Degas]

just an idea for increasing mixed forces, as they are instantly recognisable chapter vets DW grant a bonus to normal marines.

[Bringer of Redemption]

I like a lot of the brainstorming going on, and I was thinking about how to incorporate the 'tactical/strategic' aspect of the DA. An easy way to do it would be to include something that's already been printed before. I think the Damocles Command Rhino would be a good fit, perhaps as a dedicated transport option for a command squad?

Or perhaps certain special characters--company masters, belial, sammy, and Azzy (as they have command of full companies, rather than a task force under a chaplain ect.)--have a version of the rule that keeps cropping up in other codexi--a bonus to reserve rolls, since they've planned out a whole campaign, and know exactly when reinforcements will be on hand.

 

--BoR

[Arioch]

Publius, I agree with the standards: Each should give a special rule. And relentless and preferred enemy fits fortitude and retribution very well, perhabs devastation should be something that has to do with shoting instead. I think your idea will fit a new codex very nicely. And as to what others have said about Stern and Vangard I also agrees: We dont need them and they do not fit the chapter, let the other chapters have them, our 1. company fights only in terminator armour.

[Belial212]

This is essentially what I was talking about when I suggested the standards could potentially have different bonuses on my last post. I kind of like the idea that you need a Chaplain or possibly an Int-Chaplain to gain access to them and then you can buy them and distribute them to specific units, like Deathwing, Ravenwing and maybe Veterans/Command Squads?

 

Relentless I agree fits well with Fortitude, but what about Furious Charge instead of Preferred Enemy for Retribution? Devestation for shooting could be good, but the romance and power of a Standard has always been in melee where people die to protect it as opposed to from a hilltop overlooking the battle, so I'm thinking it should grant a short range bonus, rather than a long range one. Maybe something like rapid fire weapons fire an extra shot when firing within 12 inches? Or make them twin linked within 12 inches?

[HsojVvad]

I know my words don't mean much, but lets take this into consideration. I just missed about 20 posts becasue I got tired of how over powering the rules are and people then still saying, SS as SM are.

 

forget about Codex Ultramarines or Space Marines [/] We are Dark Angels. We are the Unforgiven. All I have been reading is too many buffs, (while they do cost alot) but I haven't read any draw backs. Is this all Dark Angels going to be? So many buffs no weaknesses but they cost alot? Nobody is going to take this serious. There is too much 4th edition mind set going on. Maybe I am stuborn in sticking with the DA codex, but buying extra termies for 6-10? All this does is min max things wich we all hated. Make it 5 or 10 man squad. OR, no nothing extra can be bought unless it's a 10 man squad so it's maxing and no mining.

 

I think before we go on having the DA buffed, lets get some weaknesses in first so we can work from there. Then when we have weaknesses, the Lion would see what hour weaknesses are and then make shure we become stronger.

 

Just an idea. Lets not get all gung ho on how great we can be, because I don't see us balanced. So lets gets some weaknesesses ideas now.

 

*edit*

 

finished reading the rest of the post. Just to reitriate, we are Dark Angels. If we want to this codex to be considered not a joke, then forget about SM. If we are to guess where GW maybe go then thats one thing but to just be on par with SM, people will just say, take Sammy, Belial, and Azzy and use the SM codex then. We take pride in that we have a seperate codex.

 

 

Just a reminder, if GW sees this codex and if it's too much like C:SM (or C:UM depending on how you view that codex) GW might just forgoe a 5th edtion DA codex and just throw us in the 6th edtion SM codex, so Please be careful for what you are asking for. Show GW we want to be different, we are unique and we don't need what the SM or UM have. So please keep this in mind other wise, you may have your wish.

 

Dark Angels may have the same SM point costs and wear gear but it will be in the 6th edtion codex and not a seperate DA codex. So I see some good suggestions for a seperate codex but as soon as I see point costs like SM, just screams of a DA in the SM codex. So what if we pay more for things, keep us different.

[Shadey]

This is essentially what I was talking about when I suggested the standards could potentially have different bonuses on my last post. I kind of like the idea that you need a Chaplain or possibly an Int-Chaplain to gain access to them and then you can buy them and distribute them to specific units, like Deathwing, Ravenwing and maybe Veterans/Command Squads?

 

Relentless I agree fits well with Fortitude, but what about Furious Charge instead of Preferred Enemy for Retribution? Devestation for shooting could be good, but the romance and power of a Standard has always been in melee where people die to protect it as opposed to from a hilltop overlooking the battle, so I'm thinking it should grant a short range bonus, rather than a long range one. Maybe something like rapid fire weapons fire an extra shot when firing within 12 inches? Or make them twin linked within 12 inches?

 

I thought that was pretty much implied. All the banners I can think of only apply to the squad they are attached to or all squads within 12 inches.

 

HsojVvad, your not taking into account points cost, which no one has really started talking about, and for good reason. It is one of the specifics that will have to be tested, but points cost will be the main drawback and the main balancer, just as it is with all the armies.

 

Also, C:SM is a good starting point, it gives us a point of reference and examples. No one has even suggested we follow it to the letter, we will distance ourself naturally from it but it remains a good starting point. We may be Dark Angels, but we are still Space Marines.