Creating a new Dark Angel Codex.

[con-fusion]

My Watcher in the Dark with helmet counts as a Demon Prince... Hmm...

[krewl]

Because the Chaos codex was designed in the same mindset as the current DA one, so it would just be as bad, unless you add typically Chaos units, or powers like Lash.. And even to me that would feel wrong.

[DAG42]

Well considering we have an element that fell to Chaos. Maybe we should get preferred enemy rule added when playing them.

[Drachnon]

I'm a blood angel player but since I'm always interested in developing rules and calculating stuff let me give you some ideas at least. I'll try to use Codex Space Marines and Codex Blood Angels as a baseline in most cases.

 

First to comment on an earlier post suggesting that giving a captain terminator armour should grant it the same rules as Belial in that terminators count as troops.

I'll have to say a big no against this. I don't know all codices but I'm pretty sure that most characters that make all of any type elite, fast attack or heavy support choice count as troops is a special character. We could borrow an idea from orks though that 1 squad of death wing counts as troops.

Using the Blood Angel codex as a base I can see this making captains a viable choice for you guys unlike with Blood Angels where Captains are considered crap since they don't have any synergy with other units making Reclusiarchs a far better choice. Limiting it too one squad makes sure that Belial isn't suddenly useless since from what I can tell his ability to make death wing troops was the primary reason to field him.

 

Now for the basics:

Personally I think it is best to take the Codex Space marines and copy paste that for 90% of the units and wargear, after all this is how most space marine codices seem to be build.

 

The we move on to the different parts.

Dark Angel special rules, I've see people list a large amount of universal special rules that can represent this sometimes even suggesting the dark angels would need them all.

I'm going to say stick with one, maybe two if it's not a very powerful special rule. Keep in mind that us Blood Angels only have a 1 in 6 chance per squad to benefit from our red thirst, which grants fearless and furious charge. Fearless as well as furious charge but you can't make a list and expect the squads that really benefits from them to have these rules. Making it hard to find an equivalent for the Dark Angels but stubborn seems to be a good choice (I personally think that stubborn is a better ability then fearless since it prevents no retreat rolls)

Our best rule with 5th edition however is the decent of angels, which fits well with the blood angels as jump pack specialists. Now the Dark Angels while angels are not really into the jump pack thing but instead you have something else that can deep strike, the Death Wing, though it would be kind of copying the Blood Angel codex I personally think decent of angels would work well on all Dark Angels in Terminator Armor if we want to make a slight difference perhaps the reroll for reserve rolls can be replaced with the options to start rolling from turn 1 (just if you feel the need to be different though).

 

Dark Angel differences with Codex Space Marine units:

Indepent Characters on bikes

All get the scout rule instead they pay quite a bit more for their bikes then normal marines do (perhaps 10 points more) since they get the possibility of charging first turn thanks to scout move (which is really scary).

 

Command Squads

I would personally like to see the Dark Angels get the option to field something more compliant with the Death Wing and Raven Wing units as command squads. Like Blood Angels have the option for jump packs in the honour guard Dark Angels should have the option to terminator armour and bikes.

 

Now to make the honour guard different from the normal Death and Raven Wing they should have options the other two don't have. Most prominently I think this should include the Chapter Banner giving +1 attack to the squad (note that it seems that with the BA codex the +1 attack banner is limited to 5 men squads so your command squads might need something similar) and perhaps some other rule (I'm not the most familiar with the Dark Angel so I'll leave the discussion on what's appropriate to you guys).

Perhaps an other option would be more allowance for heavy weapons on the terminators (perhaps up to three?)

Either way they should be fearless in my opinion.

 

Next up the Death Wing

First of all I think the Death Wing should get upto 10 models in a squad and are a combination of assault terminators and normal terminators. Having free choice in their equipment (good for wound allocation). With the exception of the heavy weapons of course.

Every new terminators model should cost 43 points at least. I heard some suggest 40 points but since death wing are better then normal terminators (thanks to their fearlessness and more flexible options, also the decent of angels rule I suggested) I think the increased cost is justified and perhaps should be rounded to 45 points.

 

The Raven Wing

I think the Raven Wing squad should lose the single land speeder option. It just seems rather odd to have them with the squad and adds unnecessary confusion (how does that work in melee combat?)

Next up it should get the option for up to 5 bikes added at the cost of 30 or 35 points each, and a single attack bike for 45 points. It should probably be 35 points because they'll now be able to charge first turn together with joined IC's.

 

New Unique unit ideas: (these are just some random ideas can be ignored)

Unique land speeders

Considering the Raven Wings specialism with land speeders perhaps a type of land speeder unique to the Dark Angels can be justified. This can be done in various ways, my personal suggestion is making front and side armour 11.

 

Interrogators/standard bearers

Not sure what these would do but considering the Blood Angels got the Sanguinary priests I think the Dark Angels could make do with something similar as well. Perhaps granting a special rule like mentioned with in some of the posts others made. Note that like with blood angels their stats will not be much more then a veteran sergeant and pay full price for any equipment they buy.

 

And last I think that the Storm Raven should be added to the Dark Angel arsenal since it fits very well with the Raven Wing.

 

Well that's all I got to say good luck with making your codex update ;).

[FerociousBeast]

For a Blood Angel, your feedback's not half bad ;) I think I agree with most of your points, and the rest is at least worth discussing.

[Drachnon]

Thanks, I guess.

Anyways I thought up another unique unit.

 

Veteran bikers

3-5 Bikers with veteran profile. Each models gets access to a variety of options in weapons such as plasma guns/pistols and power weapons/fists.

[publius]

I really should reply to the "Project Unforgiven" thread in the rules development forum, which I will in a bit. Most of what is proposed is probably fine, but first a few comments:

 

First to comment on an earlier post suggesting that giving a captain terminator armour should grant it the same rules as Belial in that terminators count as troops.

I'll have to say a big no against this. I don't know all codices but I'm pretty sure that most characters that make all of any type elite, fast attack or heavy support choice count as troops is a special character. We could borrow an idea from orks though that 1 squad of death wing counts as troops.

Using the Blood Angel codex as a base I can see this making captains a viable choice for you guys unlike with Blood Angels where Captains are considered crap since they don't have any synergy with other units making Reclusiarchs a far better choice. Limiting it too one squad makes sure that Belial isn't suddenly useless since from what I can tell his ability to make death wing troops was the primary reason to field him.

 

I'll have to disagree, as one of the main complaints people had with the latest codex is that they "had" to take a special character to field all Deathwing armies. Prior to the 4th edition codex, Dark Angels were special because they always had alternate options - in 3rd edition the DA alone could take Deathwing and Ravenwing armies. Then, as now, those armies were considered harder to win with, but people thought they were cool.

 

Some people like special characters, so Belial is fine. Others, however, like to customize their HQ characters, so that it feels like "their" character. I feel like a good codex should make both types happy.

 

A side note, I always was proudest when people said that the Dark Angels tended to be the most fluff-minded of the 40k players, and would rather field "cool" armies rather than armies that would win. This was of course during our heyday.

 

I think the Raven Wing squad should lose the single land speeder option. It just seems rather odd to have them with the squad and adds unnecessary confusion (how does that work in melee combat?)

 

The way it works in the current codex is that the Landspeeder is always detached from the Ravenwing squad, and thus always counts as a unit by itself. Thus it's a completely separate unit for close combat and shooting.

 

I believe it was meant to fill out a Ravenwing squad to a full 10 members: 6 on bikes, 2 on an attack bike, and two in the landspeeder tornado. I thought it was an interesting organization, even if few people took the landspeeder tornado because it was horrendously overpriced for what it did.

 

I always thought that Ravenwing Support squadrons should have the option to swap out their landspeeders for attack bikes, though.

 

 

I also agree with replacing "Combat Tactics" with something like the stubborn USR, or intractable from 3rd edition. Stubborn refusal to give ground has been a DA trademark up until the most recent codex got rid of it. However in terms of organization, the battle companies are stated to mostly follow codex organization: 100 men each, divided into Tactical, Assault, and Devastator squads.

[dynamicspartan]

Every new terminators model should cost 43 points at least.

I like all your ideas except this one. I've always been a fan of take 5 or take 10.

[mysideofthemirror]

First to comment on an earlier post suggesting that giving a captain terminator armour should grant it the same rules as Belial in that terminators count as troops.

I'll have to say a big no against this. I don't know all codices but I'm pretty sure that most characters that make all of any type elite, fast attack or heavy support choice count as troops is a special character. We could borrow an idea from orks though that 1 squad of death wing counts as troops..

 

The basic space marine codex already has this. The mounted combat rule for their captains makes their bike squads (a fast attack choice) into troops if the captain is mounted on a bike.

 

This means that the SM codex can field a 'ravenwing' like army list without a Special Character while we have to field a special character to do the same.

 

The big reason I'd love for their to be a rule that makes our captains change the army list is this one; in my area and in a lot of discussions I've seen there's a dislike about special characters, a feeling that they're overpowered. In fact the tournaments in my area all ban ALL special characters, which makes playing a pure deathwing or ravenwing, or even a black and white list impossible.

 

One of the things that's always been brought up when discussing what makes DA unique, is deathwing and ravenwing and alternate army lists. I don't feel that having captains change our army lists is overpowered. In fact, I don't believe that the rest of the Deathwing and Ravenwing sit around twiddling their thumbs while Belial and Sammael are out on missions.

[pueriexdeus]

The big reason I'd love for their to be a rule that makes our captains change the army list is this one; in my area and in a lot of discussions I've seen there's a dislike about special characters, a feeling that they're overpowered. In fact the tournaments in my area all ban ALL special characters, which makes playing a pure deathwing or ravenwing, or even a black and white list impossible.

 

You might want to get some special dispensation at your LGS. All the DA's special characters have lower stats and wargear than all other (well almost) basic Captians, etc...

[mysideofthemirror]

The answer I got was, I'd love to, but we can't make one exception, cause then other people will ask for exceptions etc.

 

So no dice, even though I haven't heard one person say that ours are on the same level as some of the other ones.

[Drachnon]

Tournaments that actually ban special characters... I've never had that. In fact if someone suggests to me that special characters are unbalanced I usually tell them to suck it up and play a different game if they don't like how games workshop created the game.

Special characters should really be seen as a unit (often single model) with a restriction of 1 per army. If they have a problem with that then they might as well ban the death company as well as some other choices in the game. If they think the model is too powerful tell them they can write a letter to gamesworkshop asking to errata the unit. Unless gamesworkshop errata's the unit claim the model is part of the game as much as any other unit and therefore completely legal.

BTW I didn't actually know about the whole captain on bike makes bike squads troops until you guys pointed it out. And after some reevaluation of the blood angel codex I think that making bikers troops standard like blood angels have assault marines as troops can be justified. Still not sure on the terminator armour though, I personally like the whole requiring a special character to make an elite choice a troop. I mean if sanguinairy guard became troops just by giving my captain a jump pack half of Dante's use would fall away.

[Interrogator Stobz]

In keeping with the 'ultra balanced' C:BA which has Tactical, Scout, Assault, Death Company and DC Dreads as troops I think that a new C:DA should have (at very least) Tactical, Scout, DW, RW and Devastator squads as troops if you take any HQ choice.

 

Seperate Rant:I'm a bit sick of getting tabled by C:BA. Anyone else faced Priest spam and Podding Furioso Dreads armed with all of these; magna grapple/Frag cannon/Hvy Flamers/Melta guns?

 

Stobz

[Shadey]

I like all your ideas except this one. I've always been a fan of take 5 or take 10.

 

Then you can take 5 or you can take 10. Some of us want the choice of taking between (inclusive) 5 to 10. Giving us that option does not preclude in any way, your choice.

 

Not to mention it's harder to get close to your point limit when being so restricted.

 

I have one question, are we going to make some art or miniatures for these projects? I know few pics would really spice things up and break up the text nicely.

[FerociousBeast]

That would be fantastic, Shadey. If you have examples of any art assets that could be employed (remember copyright and stuff...), post them somewhere by all means!

[Hemal]

As for minis - there's a thought...

[aeren]

Every time I look at the sternguard entry, I cry a little that we don't have them available. Not from the pod in and combi-melta spam standpoint most armies do, but for the idea of extra shooty veterans in a traditionally shooty army. For extras, maybe they could have a bubble effect, like Longbeards do in WFB, where they provide a LD reroll...handy for combat squads sans seargent that get picked apart from range.

 

My other wishes would be geared toward DW...a descent of angels type rule, since the entire first company rolls in TDA a majority of the time and should have a pretty good grasp of "I want this squad to go two feet to the left of that bush" and BAM done. (Even with the fickleness of teleportation, etc.)

That or giving Belial's squad a heroic intervention style rule, where he can assault the turn he DS's. That one might be a bit much, but figured I would throw it out there.

 

 

Edit: Guess I should have read page 5 in its entirety before posting...my bad

[HiveFleetEzekial]

but for the idea of extra shooty veterans in a traditionally shooty army.

 

We already sorta have this as is. It may not have all of the same options available to it that sternguard have, but out Vet squad did get FAQ'd so that 'any model may take' the listed options, not just three. So we can get fairly sloce to 'shooty vets'. (provided you need your vets to be more shooty than a possible mix)

[skawolf]

These are just a few ideas that popped into my head whilst reading this thread, keep in mind that these are off the top of my head and as I have not read the 4th ed. DA codex some things might be redundant..... awwww my blissfull ignorance :tu:

Deathwing and ravenwing:

I belive that playing a deathwing/ravenwing army (i.e deathwing/ravenwing as troops) should remain how it is. What other captain would be leading the first/second company besides the named captain? (though I do understand that this isn't true for successors)

As far as the feel no pain rule that some have sugested goes, I would say no. It seems like every army coming out has an option for feel no pain and DA should do something to differentiate themselves from the others. I have no sugestion yet as to what that should be, just an opinion that they shouldn't get feel no pain.

 

I belive that deathwing terminator squads should be split into their respective sternguard/vanguard squads, just because they are wearing termie armor doesn't mean that they are different than the vets in C:SM. The units should have the option of 4-10 termies per unit. Still have fearless.

 

Sternguard deathwing should run along the lines of the medium range firefight and come standard with stormbolter + powerfist (sgt. w/ powersword and + 1 Attack), they would have the combi-weapon option for the entire squad, with two members, regardless of the total number of squad members, being allowed to upgrade to heavy weapons, including the following, ass-cannon, cyclone launcher, heavy flamer, lascannon, plasma cannon, heavy bolter and multi-melta. All of these weapons would be at a slightly higher price than if a tac squad were to take them due to terminators being relentless.

 

Any number of Sternguard terminators can take a landraider of any pattern for a dedicated transport aswell as being able to be packed into drop-pods (<--could be nasty combined with relentless, maybe make pods a bit more costly for them) This (the land raiders) could represent how ancient the Dark Angels are and how much wargear they have accumulated over the millenia. Plus I think with a chapter having so much TDA at it's disposal that they would also have a greater number of land raiders available than others.

 

Vanguard Deathwing should come equiped with paired lightning claws with a sub out for thunder hammer + stormshield just like their C:SM contemporaries, and also get their wargear updated to match aswell. I belive that the Sgt. of a vanguard terminator squad should be allowed to take digital weapons or be upgraded to a lower level one wound chaplain who is there to oversee the hunt for the fallen (I know that this is the ravenwings job, but the ravenwing don't really know why they are hunting the fallen, doesn't make sense to me.... this will be seen to later down the post).

 

I belive that the "vanguard" terminators should get the heroic intervention rule, but only if they deep strike via locator beacon. I belive that would represent the Lion's tactical knowledge in his proginy, working together in unity to deliver crippling blows to the heart of the enemy forces, or an important flank. I think this wouldn't be as easy to pull off in a real game as it seems on paper and would balance out fine.

 

 

Ravenwing:

 

I belive that the Ravenwing is one of the coolest forces ever, and should, when used in concert with the rest of the chapter, just beat on the battlefield. I haven't many sugestions for them as I don't know their exact rules as of now, but I think it would be cool to be able to upgrade your Bike SGT. to be a low level(1 wound) chaplain just as in the vanguard terminator squad. I also belive that due to the heroic intervention concert rule with the vanguard termies you should have to pay a token price for the locator beacon. I am hearing that they are more expensive than the C:SM bikers, which if they are on the same level as them I would say bring the points into alignment with them, or give them the locator beacon for free still or discounted upgrades for special weapons.

 

 

Greenwing:

 

I don't think that giving these guys stubborn would work out well to represent the "tactical nature" of The Lion, I think that it actually represents a very non-tactical aproach to a fight. It's not always a sound tactical decision to stick around, though noble it may be. I think something more akin to this: "insert name of rule".. For every unit with this rule that you take you may add 1 to your dice roll to steal first turn to a maximum of 4+. That plus the traditional ATSKNF and combat tactics/squads should bring these to 17 points each for the tactical marines.

 

Their wargear options should bring the price of a plasma gun down to, or closer to, a meltagun plus free flamer sub out for bolter. I like C:SM prices for their heavy weapons in squads and I would just follow that.

 

Assault marines: (see C:SM)

 

Devastators: only change I would do from a codex space marine dev squad would be to add the option for the Sgt. to carry a special weapon and probably only a plasmagun at that.

 

Scouts: ( See C:SM)

 

Transports:

See C:SM, one exception is for the Razorback to be able to take a twin linked plasma cannon or twin linked multi-melta, but I think all space marine codexes should get this with their Razorbacks.

 

Fast:

Speeder squadrons:

maybe add some weapons to the typhoon that are not available in C:SM, Lascannon, plasma cannon, ect........

 

Bikes:

I say be able to take company bikers and not just ravenwing bikers, So taken as C:SM bikes

 

Add in Storm raven, though I am hesitent about that as I would like for it to stay chapter specific to blood angels, but hey! we still have baal preds that are chapter specific to us.

 

Heavy support:

See Codex: space marines, maybe add the option of multi-melta sponsons to predators, it would make people play them more agressive as they should be.

 

 

Just a few tid-bits to add to the discussion, and also, please don't publicly flay me for saying "sternguard terminators" or "Vanguard terminators", I was using those names to refer to the type of unit, not the actual name I think they should be called.

[Zakkiel]

If you take a look at the new Deathwatch rpg you 'll notice in the Dark Angel rulings and psychic powers many nice ideas and a return of old powers. Maybe those could be of use when designing the updated codex (Even GW could use them!) <_<

[FerociousBeast]

Any chance you could provide a summary of those items, Zakkiel? Wish I could justify buying such an expensive book for the fluff alone, but I don't role play, so I can't...

[Hemal]

All - I've not disappeared, we're going to do a quick collaborative document on Google docs to provide colour around Unforgiven..

[Lord_Edgimus]

dunno if i'm allowed to do this, but if not lemme know and i'll delete the post.

 

dark angels powers from deathwatch that aren't in the codex are

 

Mask of shadows: Covering his thoughts in darkness the librarian hides his mind from sight, confouding the efforts of enemy psykers or fearsome foes to psychically engage

 

true strike: deadly against those with the psychic gift, the effects of a true strike can smash an enemy psykers mind to pieces

 

Weaken Resolve: the dark angels librarian forces his way into the minds of foes robbing them of their will to fight and eroding whatever resistance they possess.

 

i've left out the actual rules