Lash vs Kharn or his squad

[Spear of Achilles]

Allerka and myself had a 1850pt game today of Chaos vs Chaos. I used Lash on a squad of berserkers that contained Khârn (to prep for a Vindicator blast). We had a debate about how this would work mid game. From the basic rulebook, a Independent Character's special abilities are not normally conveyed to a squad he joins. Khârn is not affected by psyker powers. So there are three possibilities: The squad is not affected due to Khârn's presence; The squad is affected normally, but Khârn is unaffected and remains where he is; Both Khârn and the squad get lashed, because the greater majority are not immune to this power. Against another player I play with, we simply had the 'zerks get lashed, leaving Khârn behind since he is immune. Allerka brought up the point that an independent charter cannot normally leave a squad during the shooting phase. We finally did the dice roll and Khârn got left while all the 'zerks got 'caught a twister to Oz' by a large blast. Does someone know if this problem has been answered without use of a dice roll? I remember reading something similar to this, where the Independent Character's Special ability gets trumped by the majority rule, but am not certain where to find this.

[Seahawk]

Khârn cannot be seperated from his squad except in the movement phase, so either it has to be ruled that since one member ignores the power it doesn't affect them at all, or his presence is insignificant and the power affects them all. Splitting them up would be a massive no-no.

 

Beyond that I thought GW had cleared it up in their FAQ but of course they didn't.

[Morticon]

I vote for option C.

 

Theres nothing preventing you from moving the squad, but not moving Khârn.

 

Just so long as you keep coherency and dont move Khârn, you can move the others.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I vote for option C.

Theres nothing preventing you from moving the squad, but not moving Khârn.

Just so long as you keep coherency and dont move Khârn, you can move the others.

 

So you want them incoherency with Special K. I guess they would be pretty incoherent hanging around with that frothing nutter! :P

[Grey Mage]

Id have to go with- They dont move.

 

The unit moves at the slowest speed of any model in the unit, since kharns move whilst under the effects of lash is 0, the whole squad is unable to move... no matter how much they might like to.

[caboosebe]

If Khârn is part of a unit that is hit by "Lash of Submission" what happens?

 

A: Khârn ignores the ability and since a unit always moves at the speed of the slowest model, his unit does not move. However, if the unit fails its pinning test, Khârn will "[Go] to Ground" with them.

 

just found this on internet

[Allerka]

Well, there ya go. I knew it didn't feel right. :)

 

I would have enjoyed a cover save and probably at least a few of my guys surviving then, which obviously would have changed things a bit at the end there. Ah, well. ;)

[JamesI]

If Khârn is part of a unit that is hit by "Lash of Submission" what happens?

 

A: Khârn ignores the ability and since a unit always moves at the speed of the slowest model, his unit does not move. However, if the unit fails its pinning test, Khârn will "[Go] to Ground" with them.

 

just found this on internet

where did you find this?

[Spear of Achilles]

http://www.frostreaver.net/downloads/FRAGF...GCSMFAQv1.0.pdf

 

Seems to be a tourney submission faq, not GW

 

The Throne of Skulls (yet another tourney) PDF:

http://www.spore-con.com/Downloads/FAQ%201.01.pdf

 

"121. Q: Khârn the Betrayer is immune to psychic powers. What happens if he is in a unit that is targeted by one, like the Lash of Submission for example? Does he confer his immunity to the unit? A: No, the unit will be effected but not Khârn himself. In the specific case of the Lash of Submission the unit is effect but Khârn is not so move the unit as per the rules for Lash of Submission except that the unit cannot break coherency with Khârn who cannot be moved."

[stinkenheim]

I'm in agreement with GM on this one. I would play it that the unit moves at the speed of the slowest, in this case 0". Therefore the unit isn't forced to move.

Imagine if you would they are more concerned about the possible reaction of Khârn rather than the beguiling visions of the enemy sorcerer

[caboosebe]

wikipedia warhammer FAQ, and checked some other forums aswell (to be sure). They all say the same thing:

Khârn can not be effected by psychic powers, but his unit can. This can mean that his unit can't shoot their guns (because of a psychic power) but he can.

This also means, any wounds allocated to Khârn because of a psychic power are therefor ignored.

In theory, the unit is indeed effected by lash of submission. But they need to move at the same speed as the slowest character. As Khârn doesn't move he is the slowest Character. But a pinning test must be taken.

Some guy on forum (think it was dakadaka) said he asked it to GW employees themselfs.

If this is true? Not so sure myself.

 

I'm just posting what i've looked up myself on internet. Just typed the question in google: unit with Khârn effected by psychic power.

Again I'm not sure if this is true... Khârn doesn't move ok, but that doesn't make Khârn a stationary character. His maximum speed is still 6" without running. He isn't locked in a block of steel (he would burst out anyway).

 

But he cannot be seperated from his unit because of the Lash. Only during movent fase.

 

 

I can understand why so many say that the lash doesn't work because of the rule of slowest character, but on the other hand, why do psychic wounds effect your unit? Then the lash should work aswell, and as Khârn isn't slow and purposefull he remains a maximum cruising speed of 6". In my opinion, your unit can move up to 6" but has have one unit holding Khârn's hand.

 

For the Third time. I'm just posting what I found on internet.

 

 

 

PS. the moderati should make it a general rule to be a member on the forum :mellow: If you want to be a member of this forum, you'll have to accept that Lash does/doesn't effect the unit with Khârn :P:p (just kidding)

[Grey Mage]

Because, unlike some psychic protections, Kharns rule states the HE is immune to psychic powers, and make no mention of his squad.

 

Thus, a psychic power cannot give him a wound, but can wound his squad.

 

However, movement has some clear rules on what happens when members of a unit are moving at different speeds- you always use the slowest. Nothing in lash of submission or blessing of the blood god changes that.

 

Lash also forces a pinning test. In this case this is also irrelevant, as Khorne Beserkers and Khârn are fearless, and thus will auto-pass their check. If Khârn were in a non-fearless unit of normal CSMs however, he could be pinned with the rest of the unit, as he would no longer be fearless. He is immune to psychic powers, but hes not immune to the rules for pinning- if an IC is attached, they have to stay with the squad, even if theyre being a bunch of cowards.

[Spear of Achilles]

As Throne of Skulls is a official GW-sponsored tourney, and they write teh FAQ answers to said tourney, I'd tend to take that FAQ over others. I think moving his squad as long as they stay in coherency with him (who would not be moved at all) is a fair compromise between letting them become unjustifiably immune due to a power he alone enjoys, while keeping the unit all together, since he is unable to leave them in the shooting phase. The rules say he cant confer immunity. They also say the squad moves at slowest. Since both dispute each other, a reasonable interpretation is what we are left with.

[Grey Mage]

It doesnt make sense though, and worse it seems to give the ol guy the short end of the stick.

 

He can be pinned by a psychic power, because the main rules say so, but his squad will move in though those same rules say no?

 

Sorry, I dont buy it.

[Allerka]

As Throne of Skulls is a official GW-sponsored tourney, and they write teh FAQ answers to said tourney, I'd tend to take that FAQ over others. I think moving his squad as long as they stay in coherency with him (who would not be moved at all) is a fair compromise between letting them become unjustifiably immune due to a power he alone enjoys, while keeping the unit all together, since he is unable to leave them in the shooting phase. The rules say he cant confer immunity. They also say the squad moves at slowest. Since both dispute each other, a reasonable interpretation is what we are left with.

Except the ToS tournament is run entirely by the staff of Warhammer World, i.e. just a few red and black shirts (who aren't exactly known for being any better with the rules than any given player), and is specifically marketed as a casual event. Meanwhile, the INAT FAQ, written by an entire council of players from across the US (and widely considered just as official as the actual GW FAQs because of its comprehensiveness and the effort put into it) says no.

 

So we're still at an impasse I think on "reasonable interpretations". By strictest RAW, nothing happens because it moves at the slowest model speed. All the rules for Lash says is the unit makes a normal move at 2D6". That's it. Since Khârn is immune, he doesn't budge, and is therefore the slowest model in the unit, so no one budges.

[dswanick]

My question here would be about the assumption that the unit may only be moved at the speed of the slowest model. Lash is pretty clear that it moves models 2d6", regardless of the models movement speed (ie. being Slow and Purposeful doesn't change how far the target is moved). So the "Khârn has a movement speed of 0" argument pretty much falls apart on that alone. I agree that Khârn would be immune, but his squad can still be moved, which also brings up the question of unit coherency. No Khârn can't be moved, and yes I believe that the squad can be moved. The rules are pretty clear that ICs can't join or leave squad during the shooting phase, but it does allow for squad coherency to be broken during this phase with the caveat that the squad must move to restore coherency during it's next movement phase (which implies to me that the squad could be moved 11" away from Khârn, he still counts as part of the squad, just out of coherency, and will have to either move to regain coherency the next movement phase or leave the squad during his movement phase).

[Grey Mage]

Except, since Khârn is immune, the slowest speed is 0- Khârn cannot move during the opponents shooting phase normally, so neither can the squad he is with.

 

The shooting rules allow a squad to lose coherency from casualties... not movement. And lash doesnt allow you to move a squad out of coherency as per the FAQ.

[Legatus]

I dunno. It is not like Khârn's movement is somehow inhibited, that he himself is unable to move or is too slow. It is just that the enemy player has a special permission to move a few of the other player's models, but he did not get the permission to also move Khârn.

 

This situation is closer to a case where a player moves only some of the models in a unit, but not all of them, because they perhaps already are in a good position. The stationry models fo not move because they don't want to, not because they are unable to, and some of teh models not moving does not then deny the other models their movement. In the case of the Lash, all the models in the unit now "want" to move (the enemy sorcerer makes them want to), only Khârn does not want to.

[dswanick]

Except, since Khârn is immune, the slowest speed is 0- Khârn cannot move during the opponents shooting phase normally, so neither can the squad he is with.

No, Khârn's movement is 6", the owning player only has permission to use that during his own movement phase, the opposing player never has permission to use it by the basic rules. Lash gives the opposing player a special permission to move his opponents models 2d6" after a successful psychic test. Khârn's special rule gives the owning player special permission to ignore anything caused by psychic powers in regards to Khârn only.

 

The shooting rules allow a squad to lose coherency from casualties... not movement. And lash doesnt allow you to move a squad out of coherency as per the FAQ.

Was unaware of the FAQ. This goes a long way towards settling the argument in favor of the "move a squad, but not Khârn, and maintain coherency with him" solution, when coupled with his not giving an attached squad his psychic immunity.

[Grey Mage]

This situation is closer to a case where a player moves only some of the models in a unit, but not all of them, because they perhaps already are in a good position. The stationry models fo not move because they don't want to, not because they are unable to, and some of teh models not moving does not then deny the other models their movement. In the case of the Lash, all the models in the unit now "want" to move (the enemy sorcerer makes them want to), only Khârn does not want to.

Emphasis mine.

 

Their speed isnt limited. Just because a model hasnt moved up to X" doesnt mean it cant. In this case Khârn CANT, not wont, not doesnt want to, but simply CANT move.

 

Thus, neither can his squad.

[Legatus]

My point is that the model is not unable to move. He just isn't put under the control of the enemy player.

[Grey Mage]

My point is that the model is not unable to move. He just isn't put under the control of the enemy player.

However, he is unable to move.

 

Because models are normally unable to move during the opponents shooting phase. Lash changes this, however it is unable to change this for Khârn, and thus his speed for all intents and purposes is 0 during the enemy shooting phase, and so must be his squads.

[Legatus]

I still disagree, based on the fact that there are instances when it matters whether a model is able to move or not even if it is a different phase. One example would be Tank Shock, where models that would end up under the Tank are moved out of the way. There are occasions for every phase from the game where a unit might be asked to move. During the enemy phases that will usually be fall back moves, which can happen in the opponen's movement phase, shooting phase or assault phase, but there are other occasions such as moving out of the way during a tank shock or consolidating after a won combat. In all of those instances it would matter imensely if a model was somehow unable to move (though I cannot think of examples where that might be the case, as even if gone to ground a unit can usually fall back or consolidate after combat. Well a Tyranid spore perhaps.)

Khârn is not unable to move at all. If he was with a non-fearless unit and the unit would suffer enough casdualties in the same shooting phase he was targeted with the Lash (and the unit would then fail their morale test) he would be able to fall back just fine. He is not restricted in his movement capabilities. The enemy player is just not normally allowed to move him. With the Lash he get's permission to move enemy models, but Khârn is exempt from that.

[Grey Mage]

But he is- all of the things you list are exceptions where a model is asked to move. The base rules for movement state you move in your own phase. You run in the shooting phase, wich is a form of movement that is an exception to this. You can make an assault move- only during the assault phase, but not for instance in your opponents assault phase.

 

Without a set of rules to give Khârn an exception, he cannot move during the opponents shooting phase.

 

Tank shock might give him such an exception, but lash certainly does not.

[Legatus]

Without a set of rules to give Khârn an exception, he cannot move during the opponents shooting phase.

He cannot be moved by a player. But Khârn is perfectly capable of moving. If he was with a non-fearless unit that suffered casualties and failed it's morale test in said enemy shooting phase, for example. The model is capable to move if the game requires it (or often rather "permits" it).

 

If it is the enemy shooting phase, that means that both the owning player as well as the opposing player are not normally allowed to move Khârn. Khârn, the game model, is not "unable to move", there is just no possibility for his player (or the opponent, usually) to do so at the current time. The model itself is not inhibited by anything.

 

If the enemy uses Lash on Khârn's unit, then he gets permission to move that unit, with the exception of Khârn. Khârn will not be moved, not because he is not able to, but because the opponent cannot control him. Effectively, all his squadmates suddenly decide to move (motivated by the enemy sorcerer), only Khârn does not decide to move and stay in position instead.

That is why I gave the example of moving all the models of your own unit except one. That model does not move because it decided not to (i.e. the player decided not to move it). It was not incapable to move, and it deciding not to move is not then inhibiting the movement of the rest of the unit.

 

If a Space Marine Captain in Terminator armour was attached to an Assault squad with jump packs, that unit would only be allowed to move 6", because the Captain is not capable to move any faster, and his squad is staying with the slowest model. Here you have the situation where certain models of the unit are incapable to move at a faster rate. Khârn is not "incabable" to move, he is just not persuaded by the enemy sorcerer to do so.