Imperial guard tactics

[Rottimus]

I'm playing a game soon and i'm stuggling to fill out my list.

 

I have the following conundrum..

 

I have 200-230 points to spend and the following models to choose from:

 

2 Ass can dreads

10 Assault marines (with pf)

10 Sternguard with 5 combi meltas(no spare rhinos)

 

and I'm running 3 tacticals 1 full assault squad and a full dev ML squad, 2 dakka preds and a chaplain. (2 rhinos and a razor)

 

 

This might need to go in the army list section but it's more of a tactics questions so i figured it goes better here.

 

thanks!

[Koremu]

The important thing to realise about the Imperial Guard is that there is absolutely nothing in their army list that can't be killed by a sensibly used Tactical Squad. Likewise, the few things that actually threaten marines aren't that threatening if you handle them right.

 

They have some tricks and stuff up their sleeves, but the solution to most IG lists is to just hand them a straight up fight - you'll win.

[Myxx]

Pie plates!

[Vaktathi]

First thing, above all else.

 

DO NOT TRY TO BEAT THE IMPERIAL GUARD IN A SHOOTING WAR

 

I see this so painfully often it bears repeating in ridiculous huge red text here. Don't take it to be directed at any particular person or anything, however I see Marine armies quite often that try to win their games primarily through firepower, against *the* firepower army, without taking adequate advantage of all the other options Space Marines have. Don't try and line up your rifleman dreads and vindicators to shoot me to pieces, my Hydras, Leman Russ Demolishers and Vendettas will win that fight every time. Get close, get into everything, your shooting is there to support assault elements, not to win by themselves.

 

As someone with 2, almost 3, IG armies, I can tell you that what is going to be the biggest kick in in the pants for the IG player is having a bunch of dudes amongst my lines carrying multi-assaults against everything. A Tac Marine is capable of killing every single unit in my army. Now, that said, the en masse Deep Strike to try and get in close very quickly doesn't tend to work well, even without Mystics. You come in, and have to hope to god the IG player didn't castle properly. If they did, your alpha strike is likely to do minimal damage and you're suddenly in perfect melta/plasma rapid fire/template range of everything and there's going to be little in the way of LoS issues. Dropping a few units is fine, but not the whole army.

 

The lists that scare me the most are those with a ton of tac squads in rhinos. I can deal with your bajillion point Deathstar TH/SS unit of DOOOM or your Land Raider spam. What I have a problem with is dealing with 60 power armored bodies in protective metal boxes. The Big killy CC units are not worth it against IG. A combat squad is more than sufficient to ensure the doom of most IG units, and a big blob platoon that such units can't deal with is going to eat your big killy CC units anyway. My IG don't care about your powerweapons or lightning claws, they are totally and completely a waste of points as we die anyway (pfists are good for AT though), and if I can at all help it, I'll generally want my units that have been caught in CC to die so I can shoot at whatever killed them off. Hitting 2 or 3 units at a time however and collapsing a flank can work brilliantly, so long as it's done right and well and you haven't dumped a 400pt unit into killing off 200pts of guardsmen in front of a couple Leman Russ tanks and a bunch of Plasma Guns. Multiassaults will be your best friend against Imperial Guard. Don't hit just one Chimera with Krak grenades, hit two. Don't just assault one unit in that Ruins, hit all 3, you'll still probably win handily.

 

 

Of the options you have listed, if you are tailoring to beat IG, I'd immediately toss out the Dreads. Assault Cannon dreads aren't putting out enough firepower by themselves at a long enough range to matter, and aren't going to live long enough against the plethora of IG AT weapons to really be worth it in CC, or they may just get tarpitted by worthless weeny units.

 

I can't advocate enough the advantage that simply more bodies will bring you against IG. The Sternguard will probably be your best bet, but you really need to get them either a pod or a rhino. The assault marines additional killyness over a tac squad is meaningless against IG, I'd just take another tac squad in that case.

[Rottimus]

alrighty! thanks for the great reply....

 

I've managed to scrounge another rhino so... .1 tactical + rhino it is then...

 

 

thanks!

[Chengar Qordath]

Does anyone have much practical experience using Typhoons against Guard? I would think that their mobility would let them stay safe from the worst of the IG shooting and their ability to put kraks into vehicles' side armor would be useful against Guard Mech-spam, but there's often big gap between what should theoretically be effective and how things actually work out on the table.

[Seahawk]

I absolutely love Typhoons, and field one in every single game. Have been since they came out, but they're even better now. I like it vs Guard because you can rip up a command squad, heavy weapons/special weapons squad, or even an infantry squad with the three heavy weapons, and their speed and range gives them easy flank shots on weak side armor of the chimeras.

 

The key is target saturation with landspeeders. You need to have more and scarier things on the table to make sure he'd rather target them than your landspeeder.

[Fatuous]

I'll wiegh in here as I've played guard up til about 2/3 months ago when my fear of dreadnaughts made me decide I WANTED SOME!!!!!!

 

Vaktathi hit pretty much every nail on the head.

 

Multi assaults is where you will win against guard, and tac squads are pretty much all that you need to do it. Forget power house units, guard will just bog them down. Sure you get some kills, but there is no guard equiv to a 400 point death star unit, even a maxed out guard combined squad is 250, so unless they decided to throw in a commissar to every unit (they prob wont, 1 is plenty), they will just take the casualties on stubborn units, and tie them up all game.

 

Tac squads are a must. to the OP, I would also encourage you to take those stern guard. The ap4 rounds are really useful in case carapace vets or storm troopers turn up, but ignoring cover saves is where it is all at.

 

Obviously take as many flamers and heavy flamers as possible. Dreads in pods with MM and DCCW and HF are ideal for tackling guard. Can turn it's hand to either troops or heavy tanks. 2 heavy flamers on a dread would prob work, but over all, I wouldnt bother.

 

Speeders........ Now this does all depend on the guard list you are facing, but getting a side armour shot on a chimera...... tbh who cares. Sure it will give you better odds, but the chimeras are not the things you have to be worrying about, a tac squad can get the shootin gon the side, or even just assult them. Rifle man dreads, or missile launchers to the front are just as effective, and a cunning guard player will have a battle tank on their flanks of the chims anyway. It can work, I'm not saying it wont, but if you send a squad of speeders like that, they can fairly easily be countered by a far cheaper option that the guard bring with them.

 

And I'm talking about vendettas or valkyres. A vendetta has a reasonable chance of popping the entire squadron in 1 round of shooting with 3 twin linked lascannon shots. a valk wont have quite the same impact, but god knows what it will be carrying, vets with melta guns most likely.

 

the point I guess I am trying to make is that the range will not be an issue like it might be with other armies, you won't be able to hide away from return fire, almost no matter where you go, they will have something to hit you, be it outflanking valks/vendettas or just the good ole plain battle cannon, and one of these babies has a reasonable chance of crippling a unit of speeders if they get the hit (which of course isn't a certainty) they will likely hit 2 of them. the direct hit is pretty much just dead, the second will get hit at half strenght so good odds at surviving cos they need a 6 right? well yes, but its ord so they'll still get 2 dice, giving them 1/3 of a chance now, and maybe they packed a lascannon, maybe they didnt but a heavy bolter can still get the job done. if you intend to take speeders, the MM HF is superior IMO, it can frag anything, much better.

 

best advice, leave all the fancy toys at home, take as many tac and sternguard as you can, get up close, combat squad if objectives, and get as many multi assaults in as possible.

 

there is of course the vet mech or aircav to potentially deal with too, and these are a bit trickier, but down their transports and hit them with a heavy flamer.

 

Last but not least. Always save a heavy weapon to take down chem hounds!!!!!!!!! they will ruin your day!!!!!

[Resv]

The one thing I rarely ever see used, except in my own army, is the Thunder Fire Cannon. Its cheap and comes with its own Tech Marine with a full Servo Harness. Against Guard I think it is one of the best options around as you can set it up in hardened cover and it has the second highest range in the Vanilla Codex. The 4 small templates a turn can tear up guard formations and even light vehicles like Chimeras! The best part of the TFC though is the different ammo you can use with it which adds quite a bit of utility.

 

Air Burst are the bread and butter ammo to use against guard since it denies cover saves. This is absolutely brutal against guard as they are usually relying on cover saves to keep them out of harms way. It is also a great way to flush out heavy weapon squads that might be hiding in ruins and such.

 

Impact Shells are perfect for catching guard out in the open since you can one shot kill most everything in the codex. It makes for a great way to kill off Command Squads in one turn if you can put enough shots on it. This is also a great way to take out Chimera units solo or in squadrons. It does take a bit of luck I will admit but it when it does it is spectacular.

 

The Tremor Shells are my secret weapon to use against Blob Platoons or anything units that you don't want to move very far each turn. This can be life saving as you can really limit where you opponent can go giving you a bit more command of the battle field.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

thunderfires airburst that ignores cover is only ap 6, so guard still get their armor save vs it. and how long do you think a thunderfire will last if you have line of sight and range to them? one turn maybe 2

[Resv]

thunderfires airburst that ignores cover is only ap 6, so guard still get their armor save vs it. and how long do you think a thunderfire will last if you have line of sight and range to them? one turn maybe 2

 

I'll take a 5+ save any day of the week over a 4+ save simple as that if I can have it. This really becomes of value if you have line of sight at a command squad or a unit that is being screened by something cheap.

 

Also, my TFC survives just fine, better than fine in most cases. The model itself is quite small and it fits into cover easily along with the Tech Marines ability to harden ruins is a no brainier. Like I said above it have a HUGE range of 60 inches which can keep it out of the way. If my opponent is going to toss a lot of fire power to take my TFC out then that is also fine by me, the less fire at my other models. In the world of Target Priority a TFC doesn't stand very high.

 

Like I said range and cover are the deciding factors.

[Vaktathi]

Doesn't take too much firepower to get rid of though, A single chimera is probably going to be enough to keep a Thunderfire occupied, with up to 9 shots each turn with a 36" range that can potentially destroy the gun, and the TFC can only glance a chimera unless it's got a side shot.

 

TFC's are great units, but really moreso against Tyranids and Orks than against IG. They can put lots of wounds on stuff, but they also aren't the hardest things around to get rid of unfortunately.

[Resv]

Again Range, cover mate, and model size save the day, mine last just fine and have done some big damage. If a single Chimera needs to get pretty close to a TFC to even engage it which means that your placement of the gun is probably not the best. Put the gun high up and at the very back of your deployment with a good view of the entire field. I love mine and have frequently taken 2 in some of my builds, even over a Vindicator which sadly has some serious limitations against Guard. It is a great weapon that can get out a few turns of serious hurt on your opponent. For every battle cannon shot your TFC takes that is one less template directed at your troops or other expensive units. Sadly, I think most everyone has the same opinion as the one above an never take it. Most players I know gloss over the entry and then turn to other options in the Heavy Support section. Anyway, regardless, I highly recommend it!

 

I also have a soft spot for SM Bikes which are great against static and Mech Guard. Numbers can be a limiting thing but they don't lack for Fire Power. Twin linked relentless bolters can swiftly mince up a foot unit. Also being able to take two special weapons makes them a potent choice against Vehicles.

 

Also, it is time to face facts here, NOTHING in the SM Codex is hard for a Guard Army to take out.

[Vaktathi]

Again Range, cover mate, and model size save the day, mine last just fine and have done some big damage. If a single Chimera needs to get pretty close to a TFC to even engage it which means that your placement of the gun is probably not the best.

36" is not close, and there's usually enough to on the board to cover anywhere you'd put a TFC (my 2k list fields 9, I can guarantee you at least a couple chimeras will have range). Even with a 3+ cover save, putting a Multilaser, Heavy Bolter and a Heavy Stubber into it isn't going to make the TFC very happy, that's a 50% chance of kill off the TFC between the techmarine and the gun, whereas the TFC only has about a 29% chance to even simply glance a Chimera from the front between its 4 shots (assuming a hit rate of 44% with a BS4 scatter weapon against a target the size of a Chimera needing the template hole over the vehicle).

 

Put the gun high up and at the very back of your deployment with a good view of the entire field.

Again however, there's probably at least a chimera or two that can probably hit it. If the chimera's are 10-12" up and on the same side of the board, they'll be able to hit it.

 

It is a great weapon that can get out a few turns of serious hurt on your opponent.

Against infantry, they are amazing, totally. No argument. But against a mech IG army, they just won't have the staying power, even with the 3+ cover, or high enough Strength, to truly be useful. After playing with the IG codex for a year and a half now almost, I've never had a TFC do anything significant against my mechanized guard. I've seen them be exceedingly effective in many matchups, just not mech IG.

 

For every battle cannon shot your TFC takes that is one less template directed at your troops or other expensive units.

Realistically, only a very poor IG player is going to be wasting Battlecannon shots at a TFC if there's anything else on the board it can target. TFC's die through weight of fire, not quality of fire. IG have no problem spamming S4/5/6/7 shots across the board at something like that.

 

Sadly, I think most everyone has the same opinion as the one above an never take it. Most players I know gloss over the entry and then turn to other options in the Heavy Support section. Anyway, regardless, I highly recommend it!

For an all comers army, I might as well, I just don't think it's a good investment against mech IG.

 

I also have a soft spot for SM Bikes which are great against static and Mech Guard. Numbers can be a limiting thing but they don't lack for Fire Power. Twin linked relentless bolters can swiftly mince up a foot unit. Also being able to take two special weapons makes them a potent choice against Vehicles.

Bikes can be useful, however the big problem is that their small size often means they end up destroyed unfortunately quickly.

 

DA Scouting bikes have proven to be rather scary, although they are rather overcosted I think in general :(

 

Also, it is time to face facts here, NOTHING in the SM Codex is hard for a Guard Army to take out.

Lots and lots of marines in lots of rhinos. Play to the attrition game and the IG won't like it :)

 

 

EDIT: However, above and beyond all else, the most pressing reason why I avoid recommending the Thunderfire Cannon is the model itself. I have never in my life had more trouble assembling a model than with my TFC. More bending, shaving, and filing than I ever thought possible, even after assembling multitudes of Chaos Obliterators. Seriously. to hell with trying to get TFC's put together.

[Rottimus]

I'd like to say thanks to everyone who replied.

 

I played my game on sunday and it was great fun. A Good, hard fought Victory for the Space marines! woot!

 

 

I took 4 tactical squads with rhinos in this 1500 pt game.

 

Tactical Squads RULE! they are so effective....

 

rapid firing bolters, flamers, assaulting, taking objectives.

 

 

they even took out a demolisher with krak grenade. I've never thought of tacticals as being great but agains the guard, very little can stand up to them!

 

We played with 4 objectives and come turn 6 the game enden with the entire left flank annhilated by my tacticals 2 objectives in my control. 1 contested and 1 in control of the imperial guard.

 

 

so... in summation: Tacticals squads with rhinos are AWESOME against guard.

[Koremu]

they even took out a demolisher with krak grenade. I've never thought of tacticals as being great but agains the guard, very little can stand up to them!

 

We played with 4 objectives and come turn 6 the game enden with the entire left flank annhilated by my tacticals 2 objectives in my control. 1 contested and 1 in control of the imperial guard.

 

 

so... in summation: Tacticals squads with rhinos are AWESOME against guard.

Told you so :P

 

The Krak Grenades are fantastic against guard vehicles, because the guard (pretty much alone of all 40k forces) have heavy tanks that like to remain stationary. 9 auto-hitting Kraks vs. AV10 or 11 is no fun at all for the IGies.

[Vaktathi]

I'd like to say thanks to everyone who replied.

 

I played my game on sunday and it was great fun. A Good, hard fought Victory for the Space marines! woot!

 

 

I took 4 tactical squads with rhinos in this 1500 pt game.

 

Tactical Squads RULE! they are so effective....

 

rapid firing bolters, flamers, assaulting, taking objectives.

 

 

they even took out a demolisher with krak grenade. I've never thought of tacticals as being great but agains the guard, very little can stand up to them!

 

We played with 4 objectives and come turn 6 the game enden with the entire left flank annhilated by my tacticals 2 objectives in my control. 1 contested and 1 in control of the imperial guard.

 

 

so... in summation: Tacticals squads with rhinos are AWESOME against guard.

 

See :(

 

A tac marine presents a lethal threat to anything in the IG army. Yes some things are more powerful but you don't need anything more powerful and the more of these guys you have the harder it will be for the Imperial Guard player to deal with, as opposed to taking a small number of expensive powerful dudes the IG player can deal with easily. Compete on that attrition basis and it becomes far easier to compete with the Imperial Guard.

 

Good to hear it worked out.