Wolves of Fenris

[ironking]

Just a question:

 

I have only read one SW novel and it seemed to indicate that the wolves on Fenris were not really wolves (canids) but something akin to a wolf, only more vicious, monstrous and intelligent or perhaps cunning is the better word. With that in mind - why are all the thunder wolf models based on enlarged wolves, why are all the fenrisian wolves (other than the converted chaos hounds) based on wolves.

 

In the wolf dex on page 31 there is an awesome pic of fenrisian wolves... if i had ANY skill at sculpting I would be making those. Then there is page 34 - what a disappointing thunder wolf - it looks too small and not nearly as dangerous / potent as they sound.

[Kassill]

I dont care too much for the ones on 31 myself...I like the one on page 4 though!

[Vash113]

Yes the Wolves of Fenris are really wolves, that's why they are called wolves. Abnormally large and powerful wolves with strange hints to possibly being werewolf type things thanks to some nonsense or other in A Thousand Sons, but still wolves. Again that's why they're called Fenresian wolves and the Chapter is called the Space Wolves and wolves appear on most of the Chapters iconography as well, not mutant bears or some such.

[Sharpsilver]

No offence Ironking, but I'm not quite sure if your pulling our tails with that post!

 

Fenrisian Wolves not being Wolves? Sounds to me like somebody is intoxicated! :P

[TheLastHuzzah]

I agree that they are wolves, but the fluff speaks to Canis' ability to speak the wolves' "guttural tongue". That makes me think they are closer to wargs as we know them in high fantasy (tolkien, DND); my $.02.

 

-Huzzah

[Grey Mage]

A large furry wolf is still going to look like a large furry canine no matter what planet you find it on.

 

If it was scaly and had three eyes theyd probly call it a cold drake...

 

Thus, no matter if the origins were terran wolves of one species or other, or a convergent evolution, or heck super-changed humanoids as some theorise.... they look like wolves because they are Fenrisian Wolves.

[Valerian]

"The wolves of Fenris are amongst the most vicous predators in the known universe. They are massive creatures easily as large as a horse. Legends tell of creatures larger still, whose jaws are capable of crushing steel and whose teeth are as huge as tree trunks. These creatures roam the wastes of Fenris. They are numerous in the vast lands of Asaheim that lie around the foot of the Mountains of Fangard upon whose peaks stands the Space Wolves fortress of the Fang. The Wolves of Fenris are more intelligent by far than ordinary wolves. It is said that they are led by a great king of their kind, a wolf black as the night as big as a mountain who is called Kjarg, King of Wolfkind."

 

- Codex Space Wolves, 2nd Edition

 

Valerian

[CommissarStone]

After reading "A Thousand Sons," I couldn't help but get the impression that Magnus' boys were implying the Fenrisian wolves were somehow akin to the warp creatures the 1KSons kept as "guides" and only the Sons knew it...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

After reading "A Thousand Sons," I couldn't help but get the impression that Magnus' boys were implying the Fenrisian wolves were somehow akin to the warp creatures the 1KSons kept as "guides" and only the Sons knew it...

 

 

The current "wolves" were of the original people who discovered Fenris, before Old Night. In order to survive on this deathworld called Fenris, they performed experiments to genetically modify themselves. This is why their sentience is superior to a regular wolf. They are not just super-wolves.

Whatever they did to perform these experiments is in the DNA of all Fenrisites, and contributes to them having some immunity to warp-powers and also has something to do with Space Wolves turning into Wulfen.

They may be all but wolves, but they are not wolves.

 

 

Cows = bovine

Horses - equine

Dogs = canine

Cats = feline

Foxes = vulpine

 

Wolves = lupine

[Beef]

Its does not openely state that the Wolves are what Marshel Wilhelm claims. As for the mention of Fenruision being slightly warp resistant like the above poster mentions its not said anywhere I can see, Yes the transformation in wulfen can be as a defence mechanism to chaos but fenrisions do not have that gene as standard. The wulfen gene is part of the canix helix which was given to the terran humans that became SW. They were not exempt from the curse of the wulfen. Its part of Russ's DNA.

 

As to the idea of Fenriosn wolves being old collonists before the long night well Its hinted and argued (but not proven). Personnaly I find that idea a bit over the top. as for the 1000 son idea i know that some cultures beileve animals like dogs/wolves can see the spirits of dead people or demons where humans cannot. Hell i have seen dogs growling at nothing in the dark. well nothing I could see anyway.

 

The wolves of Fenris are just bigger and more vicious then their terran cousins. This is probably due to the enviroment. The more space and food a preditor has and the bigger it can evolve over the centuaries.

[ironking]

I dont care too much for the ones on 31 myself...I like the one on page 4 though!

 

Page 31 shows Fenrisian wolves, page 4 I think shows the mighty Thunder Wolf

 

Yes the Wolves of Fenris are really wolves, that's why they are called wolves.

Fenrisian Wolves not being Wolves? Sounds to me like somebody is intoxicated! :D

 

Point well taken, I myself am not opposed to a couple of uisge's, although as Valerian and TheLastHuzzah commented they are more intelligent and have a guttural tongue - I like the idea that they are closer to wargs (in a sense).

 

Not knowing the fluff very well I got the impression that the "wolves" were native to Fenris - and that the settlers called the "wolves" because that's what they reminded them of - the terror in the dark and all that. Thanks Marshal Wilhelm for clearing that up - so they are actually genetically modified terran wolves - plus a couple thousand years to evolve and mutate.

 

But I think you've missed the point. What I was trying to get at is that the models that have popped up so profusely are generally enlarged terran wolves... I don't want big terran wolves... I want Fenrisian and Thunder Wolves - mountains of vicious snarling "steel-like" fur. Something that looks like it would tear a dreadnought a new hole, not a cute little puppy with a hello kitty space wolf a top. I want one of the "most vicious predators in the known universe"

 

But that's just me. ;)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Not knowing the fluff very well I got the impression that the "wolves" were native to Fenris - and that the settlers called the "wolves" because that's what they reminded them of - the terror in the dark and all that. Thanks Marshal Wilhelm for clearing that up - so they are actually genetically modified terran wolves - plus a couple thousand years to evolve and mutate.

 

But I think you've missed the point. What I was trying to get at is that the models that have popped up so profusely are generally enlarged terran wolves... I don't want big terran wolves... I want Fenrisian and Thunder Wolves - mountains of vicious snarling "steel-like" fur. Something that looks like it would tear a dreadnought a new hole, not a cute little puppy with a hello kitty space wolf a top. I want one of the "most vicious predators in the known universe"

 

But that's just me. ;)

 

 

I wasn't saying they were Terran Wolves. I am saying they were Terran Terrans! That is why Magnus says there are no Wolves on Fenris ~ because there are none!

The experiments were done on themselves!

 

 

+++

 

If you are talking about Canis, I understand. The resin pieces are not perfect, though I like them much better, but if the pros can't nail it, then the amateurs probably wont either ;)

 

If you want perfection, your in the wrong Legion :D

[Simo429]

I've got no idea which quote has led people to believe what the Marshel is saying

 

I was of the belief that they are actually Xenos creatures that look like wolves so when the first settlers got there they just said, yeah thats just a big wolf.

[Vash113]

And I just say they're Wolves. Over-thinking it just gets convoluted and I hold absolutely no credence to McNiell's ramblings in A Thousand Sons what so ever, not to mention even that is bare hints and nothing substantial.

 

Wolves are wolves, Fenresian Wolves are nasty but I don't see a need to make them look any different from "Terran" Wolves as I really don't think they would look any different just... bigger.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I've got no idea which quote has led people to believe what the Marshel is saying

I was of the belief that they are actually Xenos creatures that look like wolves so when the first settlers got there they just said, yeah thats just a big wolf.

 

*gasp* I don't have the book on me. So I will be working from memory and wont be able to make a good fist of it :yes:

Hopefully it'll be back in my hot little hands soon and I can quote from it for ye ;)

 

 

Magnus and the Captains receive Othere Wyrdsnakes Company and later

One of them talks about Wolves, Magnus says there are no Wolves on Fenris.

The Wolves are generally irritable when not amongst their own kind,

Magnus looks into the Wolves genetic code,

Magnus gets wistful and talks about seeing people's past and how the future didn't work out how they planned it.

They Wolves know that the Tutilaries [sp?] are unnatural, this and other things [some interactions with Magnus?] leads me to believe they are psychically tuned....

 

If they were Xenos, the SW would have slaughtered them.

 

 

And I just say they're Wolves. Over-thinking it just gets convoluted and I hold absolutely no credence to McNiell's ramblings in A Thousand Sons what so ever, not to mention even that is bare hints and nothing substantial.

 

 

Just because you don't like McNeill, doesn't make it not 40K Canon. It's all there, if not in text book step 1, 2, 3 style. Mature writing doesn't always spoon-feed you, you need to close your eyes, grasp the threads and start linking them together into a coherent whole. As ATS is not smash-em-crash-em book, this is an entirely reasonable paradigm to read the book through.

 

McNeill would not, imo, put in something like that into the book just to be a clever-clogs. It has fluff meaning. It will, imo, be substantiated by Abnett.

Same with the Remembrancers. They weren't there just to pad the book out. They were there showing Magnus's want to spread the gift of Psychic powers training, etc. Then the float off on a ship pre-invasion.... why? They will be picked up in Abnett's book -> Lemuel for Inquisitor #1? ^^j

 

It's a two parter, don't shut down on stuff that you don't like just because you think it's silly. McAbs worked together, and the books will be entwined like a plaited beard.

 

 

That's my take on the whole shebang :)

[hmk17]

Meh, argument seen argument refuted.

 

Counter position... much more intriguing.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2439185

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;#entry2439772

[Beef]

hmk17 The first link is not really based on much evidence. while well though out and written it is just the poster opinion. Hardly any facts to back it up.

 

the second link with your post is very much what my opinion is about the tutelries being seen by the wolves (without them being demons or Nids themselves)

 

I guess the next book might clear it up Or not.

[Grey Mage]

If they were Xenos, the SW would have slaughtered them.

No, not really.

 

There are literally billions of 'xenos' species out there, unslaughtered- even by the BTs. Importing and adapting species from earth for every ecological niche on a foreign planet is not something we see the imperium of man doing in 40k, even if some of those that are found are incredibly intelligent for what they are- animals.

[Grimtooth]

My theory has been posted up before, but here it is again:

 

When the first colonist from Terra set out upon the stars, they more then likely took with them several genetically "pure" strains of animals to populate their target planets. Fenris not only has wolves, but also elk and mammoth. So bringing with them what would account for a micro-ecosystem (prey/predator/existing fauna of Fenris).

 

Now whether or not the original settlers genetically tinkered with these animals prior to settling Fenris is up to debate, but what is proven is that the animals adapted greatly to their environment once they were settled on Fenris. The wolves became the apex land predator of the planet, some even evolving into what are now Thunderwolves. I greatly attribute this to the pack mentality of all wolves. The wolves were not the only to evolve, mammoths grew even bigger, as did the elk with them now having "razor sharp antlers". I have hunted elk, they do not have razor sharp antlers.

 

As to Magnus and his "insight" into the Fenrisian wolves. Frankly he is full of crap. We know how well all his visions and portents of the past and future turned out for him and his chapter. He was wrong with everything and even in his tower now he is still trying to prove that he was right all along despite proof to the contrary. His captains were fearful of the Fenrisian wolves and in my opinion his conversation about them was to help alleviate that fear and remove some of the mysticism of the Fenrisian wolves by debasing them.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I am surprised my brothers are so adverse to letting out the spinicher and going with the wind.

I am confident that Fenris Wolves are not native, daemon, nor Xenos.

I believe that they are in fact GMed humans as suggested by all of Magnus's words.

Just because Magnus said it doesn't mean it is a lie.

Magnus didn't tell his Captains a fairy tale and warm milk to settle them down. These guys end Orks, etc. "Hey guys, they're just hyper-intelligent wolves, no biggy".... that would not have been anything ground breaking to guys who fly through the Warp, eh?

 

McNeill has left clues along the pathway. It seems to me that people have blown off the clues because they don't like McNeill, don't like the dots not being connected for them, don't like Magnus, don't like Tzeentch, don't like a Thousand Sons, don't like fluff changes, don't like changes to their favourites fluff or something else I've left out.

 

I guess I cannot say much more about it. People seem to have dismissed it out of hand from where I am sitting. We'll just have to wait until Prospero Burns comes out. But I speculate that Abnett will also not hold our hands and do all the thinking for us, and so people will still not see it in front of them....

 

I do wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Abnett's [who no one dislikes and most like] book about the Primarch and Legion you love [so it must be from the correct perspective and truth....] came out first?

Then when ATS comes out after, you are already receptive to those ideas, keen for them to be fleshed out and you wouldn't be as negative about the book coming from McNeill about Magnus....?

 

But at the moment, this speculation on my behalf is waiting for PB to form a more rounded argument.

Maybe I am wrong and I have come up with the wrong conclusions.

I guess that is the beauty that art has over science ~ freedom to interpret and fantasize. :)

 

Anyway, I've got a forum's worth of Templars to batter into submission, so I'm off to the cage for some routines ;)

[Ranwulf]

I am surprised my brothers are so adverse to letting out the spinicher and going with the wind.

I am confident that Fenris Wolves are not native, daemon, nor Xenos.

I believe that they are in fact GMed humans as suggested by all of Magnus's words.

Just because Magnus said it doesn't mean it is a lie.

Magnus didn't tell his Captains a fairy tale and warm milk to settle them down. These guys end Orks, etc. "Hey guys, they're just hyper-intelligent wolves, no biggy".... that would not have been anything ground breaking to guys who fly through the Warp, eh?

 

McNeill has left clues along the pathway. It seems to me that people have blown off the clues because they don't like McNeill, don't like the dots not being connected for them, don't like Magnus, don't like Tzeentch, don't like a Thousand Sons, don't like fluff changes, don't like changes to their favourites fluff or something else I've left out.

 

I guess I cannot say much more about it. People seem to have dismissed it out of hand from where I am sitting. We'll just have to wait until Prospero Burns comes out. But I speculate that Abnett will also not hold our hands and do all the thinking for us, and so people will still not see it in front of them....

 

I do wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Abnett's [who no one dislikes and most like] book about the Primarch and Legion you love [so it must be from the correct perspective and truth....] came out first?

Then when ATS comes out after, you are already receptive to those ideas, keen for them to be fleshed out and you wouldn't be as negative about the book coming from McNeill about Magnus....?

 

But at the moment, this speculation on my behalf is waiting for PB to form a more rounded argument.

Maybe I am wrong and I have come up with the wrong conclusions.

I guess that is the beauty that art has over science ~ freedom to interpret and fantasize. :)

 

Anyway, I've got a forum's worth of Templars to batter into submission, so I'm off to the cage for some routines ;)

 

That was the most PARANOIC THING I HAVE EVER READ.

 

But it wouldn't be a Warhammer 40000 post if there was no paranoia! So gratz on that.

 

Now, I think a lupine giant, rabid, more intelligent beast, is, indeed a Wolf(or a Hyena). Besides, if the Space Wolves consider them Wolves, whoelse better to say what the hell is a Wolf?

 

Ran

[Vash113]

Just because you don't like McNeill, doesn't make it not 40K Canon. It's all there, if not in text book step 1, 2, 3 style. Mature writing doesn't always spoon-feed you, you need to close your eyes, grasp the threads and start linking them together into a coherent whole. As ATS is not smash-em-crash-em book, this is an entirely reasonable paradigm to read the book through.

 

So a lack of solid evidence is excused as writing style? That's not going to convince me and no, Black Library books are not made equal to reliable canon sources. Black Library and GW have said so numerous times. If you want to treat all of Black Library as canon, be my guest, but by that token I suppose you believe the Soul Drinkers are a 2nd Founding, the Blood Angels have multi-thousands of Marines that parade around for no reason and can be duped by a mutant, the Deathwatch help fight of Dark Eldar on Ulthwé Craftworld, the Ultramarines promote a Captain who disregards the Codex and everybody on Fenris is a mutant... oh wait...

 

McNeill would not, imo, put in something like that into the book just to be a clever-clogs. It has fluff meaning. It will, imo, be substantiated by Abnett.

Same with the Remembrancers. They weren't there just to pad the book out. They were there showing Magnus's want to spread the gift of Psychic powers training, etc. Then the float off on a ship pre-invasion.... why? They will be picked up in Abnett's book -> Lemuel for Inquisitor #1? ^^j

 

It's a two parter, don't shut down on stuff that you don't like just because you think it's silly. McAbs worked together, and the books will be entwined like a plaited beard.

 

Except that argument flies in the face of the first three novels of the Horus Heresy series, which included both Abnett and McNiell and there was nothing so blatantly left undone or absent in each book. Each was a nicely contained story that linked together very well, but they didn't leave such glarring omissions or badly laid plot points. I even thought the Mechanicus and Titanicus tie ins better. I suppose I may re-evaluate my opinion after Prospero Burns comes out, but I'm not really holding my breath.

[Grimtooth]

I am surprised my brothers are so adverse to letting out the spinicher and going with the wind.

I am confident that Fenris Wolves are not native, daemon, nor Xenos.

I believe that they are in fact GMed humans as suggested by all of Magnus's words.

Just because Magnus said it doesn't mean it is a lie.

Magnus didn't tell his Captains a fairy tale and warm milk to settle them down. These guys end Orks, etc. "Hey guys, they're just hyper-intelligent wolves, no biggy".... that would not have been anything ground breaking to guys who fly through the Warp, eh?

 

McNeill has left clues along the pathway. It seems to me that people have blown off the clues because they don't like McNeill, don't like the dots not being connected for them, don't like Magnus, don't like Tzeentch, don't like a Thousand Sons, don't like fluff changes, don't like changes to their favourites fluff or something else I've left out.

 

I guess I cannot say much more about it. People seem to have dismissed it out of hand from where I am sitting. We'll just have to wait until Prospero Burns comes out. But I speculate that Abnett will also not hold our hands and do all the thinking for us, and so people will still not see it in front of them....

 

I do wonder if we'd be having this discussion if Abnett's [who no one dislikes and most like] book about the Primarch and Legion you love [so it must be from the correct perspective and truth....] came out first?

Then when ATS comes out after, you are already receptive to those ideas, keen for them to be fleshed out and you wouldn't be as negative about the book coming from McNeill about Magnus....?

 

But at the moment, this speculation on my behalf is waiting for PB to form a more rounded argument.

Maybe I am wrong and I have come up with the wrong conclusions.

I guess that is the beauty that art has over science ~ freedom to interpret and fantasize. :)

 

Anyway, I've got a forum's worth of Templars to batter into submission, so I'm off to the cage for some routines ;)

 

I never said they were native. Just as the population of Fenris is not native to the planet. They are wolves brought from Terra along with the other species I mentioned. They have just evolved. Of course you can cling to someone that is a proven liar and destroyer of his own Legion based upon his inability to handle the warp and all its powers.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

be nice boys, Marshal Wilhelm is a fanatic*, and should be treated as such. Just let him rant and slowly get ready to taze him for promoting such heresies...

 

*havent called you that in a few days, have I? :P :lol:

 

WLK

[Marshal Wilhelm]

be nice boys, Marshal Wilhelm is a fanatic*, and should be treated as such. Just let him rant and slowly get ready to taze him for promoting such heresies...

*havent called you that in a few days, have I? ;) :D

WLK

 

Oh no, that's okay. I realise that me saying that SW are missing things on SW fluff will always get some kind of reaction [though I am not doing so for troll's sake]

 

We'll have to wait for PB, and then I'll be back with a vengeance. ;)

 

I didn't know paranoic was a word either :P so that was nice to learn. I am talking about the thrust of the naysmiths ideas, so remember that my claiming the adverse reaction only applies to some of the people, some of the time.

 

Taze me?! el to the ohel², I'm from the Pain Glove dearest. I have a taze with my coffee :to: