Dual claws needs to be cheaper

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Everybody loves dual claws. They look amazing, and the whole idea is just awesome. But they have what I call Plasma Pistol syndrome - they are totally cool but are never, ever, worth their points. The problem is this: It will always be better to have 2 models with 1 claw each than 1 model with 2 claws.

 

This is because the second claw costs the same amount as the first. Consider the unit that we'd all love to be giving claws: Vanguard Veterans. It's even in their artwork. They have 2 attacks base, +1 for a second weapon. So if you spend X pts to give 1 a lightning claw, you are getting 2 claw attacks for X pts. If you give him a second, you are getting 3 attacks for 2X pts. But if you give 2 members 1 claw each then you are getting 4 attacks for 2X. It becomes worse when charging, as it is the choice between 4 and 6 claw attacks.

 

The only time you'd double up on claws is if every member of the squad already has one and you are still putting more points into the squad. But nobody is going to do this, because having that much wargear on a VV squad is already a terrible idea.

 

Dear GW. Please give a discount for doubling up on weapons like LCs. This is one of the only things the Chaos Marine codex got right.

[daboarder]

HA I hadn't realised that.....though it mayb be said that you way be better getting the 3 regular attacks and 3 claws ones to 4 claw ones

[Drudge Dreadnought]

HA I hadn't realised that.....though it mayb be said that you way be better getting the 3 regular attacks and 3 claws ones to 4 claw ones

 

Well unless you are fighting units that either have a bad save or low toughness I doubt it. Against MeQs, 3 regular attacks averages .25 wounds. 1 claw attack averages .375 wounds. When charging the difference is a lot larger.

 

Whatever small advantage having those extra normal attacks would convey when fighting hordes is outweighed by the advantage of having the wargear spread across 2 guys instead of all risked on one (especially in a small squad.)

[Muras]

HA I hadn't realised that.....though it mayb be said that you way be better getting the 3 regular attacks and 3 claws ones to 4 claw ones

 

Well unless you are fighting units that either have a bad save or low toughness I doubt it. Against MeQs, 3 regular attacks averages .25 wounds. 1 claw attack averages .375 wounds. When charging the difference is a lot larger.

 

Whatever small advantage having those extra normal attacks would convey when fighting hordes is outweighed by the advantage of having the wargear spread across 2 guys instead of all risked on one (especially in a small squad.)

 

Whether that's better or not depends on how many wounds you're taking in many situations. Having more differently armed models is usually better in this current rulset, so having 1 guy with dual claws and another couple with one and some other armament and others perhaps with no claws limits how many wounds you might take in some situations and can shield the important guy(s).

[Arkio]

meh 5 man VV squad with 2x claws each is less then a 5 man dc sq with power weapons i have used 5x TLC vv's to extreme effect when dropped within proximity of a priest.

[Brother_Dan'l]

Unless they do discount pairs of Claws (Even slightly, you are giving up your shooting attack after all. Well on most models you would and on the exceptions you wouldn't discount.) I'll stick with singles for my squads that can take them on non-sergeants. I'd rather have 4-6 claw attacks with 2 wounds than 3-4 with only 1 wound. The lone guy with a pair might be slightly harder to kill in the shooting phase but I'd rather have the chance to get some no save, rerolled wounds than none.

 

Now if I actually had the oportunity to field a 10 man jump VAS I might have a couple of twin claw Veterans. But since that unit comes in at 315 before any upgrades that's not real likely anywhere short of APOCALYPSE. :o

[BrotherMoses]

Maybe our chapter just doesn't use that many lightning claws? I will say they look cool though. I like to have one and a storm bolter on my captain. It looks cool AND its cheap.

[Redo]

meh 5 man VV squad with 2x claws each is less then a 5 man dc sq with power weapons i have used 5x TLC vv's to extreme effect when dropped within proximity of a priest.

 

Arkio; Not so sure what you getting here. You have virtually sold me on the DC.

Even though the VV squad is cheaper with 2 pairs of claws, it only has 8 power weapon (re-rollable wounds) attacks on the charge. Compared to the DC's whopping 20 power weapon attacks on the charge. You also need to consider that with WS5 the DC will hit many opponents more often.

 

Getting that VV Squad near a priest is all good but that can be tricky. On the other hand the DC can just include a chaplin for 50 points more and hey presto that unit now has re-rollable wounds and attacks which is far more deadly.

 

I am going to have to agree with the original poster. Claws for PA marines are too expensive. Indeed I think there are a lot of things that are too expensive for PA marines, such as the Plasma Pistols you mentioned. I also think that 20 points a Storm Shield is a bit steep. Still at the moment I would rather have a Storm Shield and a lightning claw than 2 lightning claws. Even though the first combo is a bit more pricier I believe that it gives you more bang for your buck.

[Skraal]

meh 5 man VV squad with 2x claws each is less then a 5 man dc sq with power weapons i have used 5x TLC vv's to extreme effect when dropped within proximity of a priest.

 

Arkio; Not so sure what you getting here. You have virtually sold me on the DC.

Even though the VV squad is cheaper with 2 pairs of claws, it only has 8 power weapon (re-rollable wounds) attacks on the charge. Compared to the DC's whopping 20 power weapon attacks on the charge. You also need to consider that with WS5 the DC will hit many opponents more often.

 

Getting that VV Squad near a priest is all good but that can be tricky. On the other hand the DC can just include a chaplin for 50 points more and hey presto that unit now has re-rollable wounds and attacks which is far more deadly.

 

I am going to have to agree with the original poster. Claws for PA marines are too expensive. Indeed I think there are a lot of things that are too expensive for PA marines, such as the Plasma Pistols you mentioned. I also think that 20 points a Storm Shield is a bit steep. Still at the moment I would rather have a Storm Shield and a lightning claw than 2 lightning claws. Even though the first combo is a bit more pricier I believe that it gives you more bang for your buck.

 

Erm, you both may need to do your maths again.

 

A 5 man VV squad each with twin Lightning Claws has 20 attacks on the charge (2 basic + 1 extra ccw + 1 charging * 5 men) and costs 300 points including jump packs.

 

A 5 man DC all with power weapons and a pistol also has 20 attacks on the charge (see above) and costs 250 points.

 

Generally I use both.

But I run a 7 man DC with TH, 2x PW and a Rhino for 250pts and sometimes they get a Chaplain if I have the points to spare.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like to take a lightning claw and stormshield on my Vanguard. Since you don't get the +1A it's the perfect combination and makes them much more resilient as well.

 

0b :D

[Arkio]

i tend to use my vv as a glass hammer. and i am one of the few that still use jp's on my dc so it works out cheaper for the 5 man vv what i like is that fact i can drop in and get stuck in right away. the re rolled wounds from the claws help. when going up against t5 + and i generally target a unit with no invul save and come out the other side with gore hissing from the claws.

[Mudpuppet]

I know this may sort of be thread hijacking but it is sort of related but i have been tryign to figure out how far VV and indeed all jump troops can charge? If they have a long charge range then surely 2 x lightning claws is gonna be more valuble than lightning claw and pistol? But if theres a risk of not making a charge then pistols may be better to at least do something on the turn they arrive?

[JamesI]

I know this may sort of be thread hijacking but it is sort of related but i have been tryign to figure out how far VV and indeed all jump troops can charge? If they have a long charge range then surely 2 x lightning claws is gonna be more valuble than lightning claw and pistol? But if theres a risk of not making a charge then pistols may be better to at least do something on the turn they arrive?

Charge range is still the normal 6 inches for jump infantry. Beasts and cavalry have a 12 inch charge.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If your VV are not charging the turn they arrive via deepstrike then they aren't doing what they are intended. I take one melta pistol in my squad in case they drift out of charge range or survive the initial assault.

 

0b ;)

[Brother_Dan'l]

If your VV are not charging the turn they arrive via deepstrike then they aren't doing what they are intended. I take one melta pistol in my squad in case they drift out of charge range or survive the initial assault.

 

0b :lol:

I assume you mean so that they can shoot at something else later? Since the Infernus has a range of 6" and Charge range is... Not to mention that just declaring HI prevents you shooting that turn. :)

 

That's an awfully expensive "just in case" kind of weapon though.

[Grey Mage]

Maybe our chapter just doesn't use that many lightning claws? I will say they look cool though. I like to have one and a storm bolter on my captain. It looks cool AND its cheap.

Pretty much everyone is in this boat though.

 

The thing is, without changing the way theyre doing wargear again, its difficult to change the pricing on things to much. Ive never thought of it as paying more for the 2nd claw- because its the same price it always was- but rather getting a discount on just having the one.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Maybe our chapter just doesn't use that many lightning claws? I will say they look cool though. I like to have one and a storm bolter on my captain. It looks cool AND its cheap.

Pretty much everyone is in this boat though.

 

The thing is, without changing the way theyre doing wargear again, its difficult to change the pricing on things to much. Ive never thought of it as paying more for the 2nd claw- because its the same price it always was- but rather getting a discount on just having the one.

 

The way the Chaos Codex does it works, actually. Single claw is the same price, but double claw is cheaper. Single claw replaces just the CC weapon, double claw replaces all weapons. If BA double claws were priced the same as chaos double claws, then they would be worth using in some situations but would hardly be the obvious choice. It'd make things a lot more interesting.

[Grey Mage]

Good point, Id forgotten about the in-between pricing of the chaos dex.

[Midnightmare]

Double claws for the VV sgt is cheaper; first one is free replaces PW, 2nd is 15 points replacing bolt pistol

[Grey Mage]

But, since a PW is 15pts.... your not actually getting a discount eh? After all the price of the squad is the same as buying 5 VV and a PW.

[Redo]

Double claws for the VV sgt is cheaper; first one is free replaces PW, 2nd is 15 points replacing bolt pistol

 

Kinda true but not really. If you look at the cost of the VV you are already paying for the pwerweapon at 15 points as a squad of 5 costs 115 points...each additional VV is another 20. So once again you are left with a 30 point pair when you equip the Serg. with another Lightning Claw.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

But, since a PW is 15pts.... your not actually getting a discount eh? After all the price of the squad is the same as buying 5 VV and a PW.

 

Correct. The sergeant doesn't get any discounts. You are just getting forced to take at least 1 pw.

[Midnightmare]

After all the price of the squad is the same as buying 5 VV and a PW.

Or the same as a naked HG (with its priest)

 

'tis horses for courses!

 

EDIT what I'm trying to say is when compared to HG (and is priest with FC and FNP), the VV (with its HI and power weapon) does the PW come slightly reduced price, thus making duel claws cheaper?

[Grey Mage]

.... nope. 30pts paid, either way.

[Midnightmare]

:) oh....!