to make the Better Air army

[Brother_Fatiswon]

hello brothers, I've been haunting the index, UM and tactical forums for the most part, but thoughts of working on an Air army has led me to wonder which book makes the better Air based/styled SM army:

DA Ravenwing vs 5th edition Codex:Space marine

would love some input or links to treads regarding this subject.

thank you all for any path to can shine a light onto.

[small_dog]

I assume that you plan on using Jump Infantry as your troop selection? If so, i would hate to deter you but perhaps blood angels might be better and least more fluffy. Otherwise stick with Ravenwing.

[breng77]

NO air armies rely on mobility so that could be Jump infantry or Bikes. His question is in regards to Codex biker army VS Ravening. Both are good armies with different builds and different play styles.

 

Lets look a little at both armies

 

Ravenwing:

 

You need to take Sammiel as your HQ on either speeder or bike, this allows RW attack squads to be troop choices. These squads are made up of 3-6 bikes, 0-1 attack bike, and 0-1 speeder. Ravenwing bikers have the scout special rule, are fearless and can carry 2 special weapons in each squad. In addition RW attack squads can combat squad into 4 separate scoring units lending to the possibility on 24 scoring units. A RW army can also take speeders in squadrons of up to 5 as a fast attack choice, however only 1 speeder in each squad can take a typhoon launcher (old style s5 ap5 TL) and one additional speeder can take either an Ass cannon or a Heavy flamer. You can also upgrade one RW squad with a banner and apoth, to make a pseudo command squad (banner gives +1 A to the squad, and re-roll morale to any squad within 12" , apoth allows a squad within 6" to ignore a failed save once per player turn, conditions apply)

 

Codex Marines:

 

You need to take a captain on a bike (which includes Kosarro Khan), to unlock bikes as troops. However, in order for the bike squads to count as troops they must number at least 5 models (Which can include one attack bike). The bikes have combat tactics, (or outflank if you take Khan, you could also opt for other special rules if you field a bike captain and another special character not on a bike) Sm bikes cannot combat squad unless they number 10 strong and the attack bike is always part of a 5 man group (counts as 2 bikes). The space marine bikes have ATSKNF and can take 2 special weapons in the squad. A SM bike army has options for Attack bike squads (1-3 AB) and Land speeder squadrons (1-3 speeders, each speeder can take 2 weapons, they also have the new 2 shot Typhoon ML with Frag and Krak) You can also take a command squad on bikes for each captain in your army this squad has FNP thatnks to the new apoth and can be kitted out to be quite strong in CC (especially when accompanied by Khan who gives them Furious charge and Hit and Run).

 

 

Comparing the Two armies

 

IMO Ravenwing is a better shooting bike army, while CSM is a great deal better in the assault. The fact that RW can field many small squads with 2 Special weapons and separate attack bikes means that they have a lot of options on how to bring their firepower to bear against the opponent. Having a pregame scout move also helps this as Attack bikes can be in melta range on turn one. However, fielding this many small units make KP missions tough to deal with, in fact KP missions are the only missions that I have lost with My current RW list. Fearless also helps the army in shooting, as losing a bike or 2 will not cause the squad to turn and run (if a 5 man SM bike squad takes 2 wounds in shooting it will run 3D6" which if you are not at the halfway point on the board could very well be gone for good, it also means that if you need your bikes to sit on an objective for a turn they will not be knocked off unless they die) RW is however Terrible in the Assault, even with the best setup they can take (with a bike chaplain and the banner) they just don't do enough damage to take out squads, and fearless means that should they lose they will either be stuck in the assault, or die to fearless wounds ( I drew an objective game once by Failing 3 fearless saves removing my unit that was contesting an objective). The SM bike army does not suffer the same in the assault, they have ATSKNF so they will run and will only take wounds should they be caught, they also have the Command squad option which can be quite powerful in the assault with T5 and FNP and the ability to take 4 power weapons (though this can get expensive), they can also bring more numbers to bear in general with the option for 10 man squads. This also gives them an edge in KP missions as they do not have as many easy KP with larger squads. Taking larger squads however costs them Special weapons as no matter how large the squad is it can only take 2 (though a squad of 4 bikes with an attack bike is 5 points cheaper than a RW squad of 3 bikes w/ AB armed the same way, assuming the AB is taking a Multi-melta, if HB is chosen the SM squad is 15 points cheaper). Sm speeders are also cheaper, and are better in small squadrons than RW speeders.

 

In the end I choose to run RW because I like having fearless so that I do not have to worry about running away and off the table. Also, I enjoy the tactical options granted to me by the Scout special rule (which the SM bikes can never have) I have won't many a game, using various scout moves, or outflanking.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i was thinking about using Lysander w/ a tactical Deep striking terminator squad for Bolter drill and to grant "stubborn" to all other Sm, if i was to use C:SM, in a Hammer and Anvil.. (non very Airy i know..)

but your points about Fearless and shooting have hit home.

the only way i would consider using Pa Jump infantry would be using C:SM Vanguards and only for Heroic Assault w/x5 melta bombs.

Ok so i have it right in my head.. RW can run MAXed squads of 7 bikes+ 1 AB+ 1 LS true or false?

do you have to take the Attack bike to take the land speeder in a RAS?

can the HQ LS "join" or "attache" to a troop unit or rw bikes/ab/Ls? or a FA squad of x5 LS? and are the dual Heavy bolters and dual assault cannons your only weapon options on the Master of Ravenwing Landspeeder?

Can you feild a 2nd hq Libby on a bike with RW?

and what if any thing can RW take in the Heavy supports slots?

 

Leaning towards Raven wing at the moment, least using the rule set for my invaders.

[breng77]

i was thinking about using Lysander w/ a tactical Deep striking terminator squad for Bolter drill and to grant "stubborn" to all other Sm, if i was to use C:SM, in a Hammer and Anvil.. (non very Airy i know..)

but your points about Fearless and shooting have hit home.

 

The issue here of course is that you are spending at least 335 points on HQ just to have that option, not that it is a bad Idea, I have considered using Vulkan for twin linked melta/flamer on bikes (with the requisite captain on a bike of course)

 

the only way i would consider using Pa Jump infantry would be using C:SM Vanguards and only for Heroic Assault w/x5 melta bombs.

yeah I did not figure you were, just answering small dog

 

Ok so i have it right in my head.. RW can run MAXed squads of 7 bikes+ 1 AB+ 1 LS true or false?

Maxed is 6 bikes + Ab + speeder (unless you attach an IC, the AB and Speeder always operate as separate scoring units, and cannot stay attached to the original squad.

 

do you have to take the Attack bike to take the land speeder in a RAS?

NO you do have to take a squad of 6 bikes, also the RAS land speeder can only take Ass Cannon and Heavy bolter. I usually go for 3 man bike squads with attack bikes in my RW list, though there are many schools of thought on this, I am not a big fan of 100 point land speeders.

 

can the HQ LS "join" or "attache" to a troop unit or rw bikes/ab/Ls? or a FA squad of x5 LS? and are the dual Heavy bolters and dual assault cannons your only weapon options on the Master of Ravenwing Landspeeder?

 

NO Sammiel cannot attach to a squad in either form as he is not an IC, and Yes his only option is for a TL HB and TL Ass can

 

Can you feild a 2nd hq Libby on a bike with RW?

Yes you can field another HQ on a bike, (or not on a bike depending on how much you want to stick to fluff, many people run Belial and take termis as troops as well as Bikes.)

 

and what if any thing can RW take in the Heavy supports slots?

Again it depends on how "fluffy" you want to be, My 1750 list has 2 predators in it and I am thinking of adding a vindicator at 1850, the extra armor helps keep the LS alive, and the extra range (from the preds) helps to thin out hordes.

 

Leaning towards Raven wing at the moment, least using the rule set for my invaders.

[ValourousHeart]

From my POV there is one main acid test to determine which codex to use for your bike army.

 

1. Do you like lots of speeders?

 

If the answer is NO, then the follow up question is do you want your bikes to spend a lot of time in CC?

If this second question is YES the 8 points per bike that you save by using C:SM is a huge benefit, as more bodies is always beneficial in CC.

Although if you goal is to field an AIR army... It doesn't make much sense to me to gear them for CC... because if you are in CC you are not moving... and moving is the whole point of an AIR army.

 

If the answer to the "like lots of speeders" question is YES, then RW becomes the clear winner.

Sure C:SM can take 9 Tornadoes grouped into 3 squads of 3.

But RW can take 10 Tornadoes run INDEPENDENTLY... that is a huge boon.

 

The 9 speeders from C:SM can all be wrecked in a single round by 3 tactical squads in rapid fire range.

All your bolters need are 3 6s followed by 3 6s... anything stronger than S4 will have an easier time of it.

Sure that would be some lucky rolling... but luck happens, so what can you do about it... simple, remove it as a possibility.

 

The RW on the other had will require at least 10 units using a minimum of S5 weapons... S4 can at best immobilize the speeder, which if it didn't go flat out last turn means that it settles in and can continue firing ahead.

Sure its fire arc is limited... but at least it is still alive and firing... and I have had one settle in on an objective with a nice big unit of guants before it, forcing the player to divert other resources to deal with a the speeder that the guants weren't capable of wrecking... all the while I was thinning his scoring unit.

It can not be understated how effective it can be just eliminating the option of the basic troop weapon as a threat.

 

Now another poster mention that a 100 points is a lot to spend for a HB/AC speeder.

I disagree.

In C:SM the same HB/AC speeder is only 10 points less... 10 measly points for a scoring land speeder... the only non transport vehicle in the game that can control objectives... seems cheap to me.

 

But this really all comes down the that first question up there... do you like lots of speeders?

[breng77]

It is not that I think it is too much in comparison to C:SM it is that I think it is too much in general, I usually keep my speeders moving 12 inches a turn and so paying that many points for a weapon I may only fire a few times is too much. Also they die way to easily for 100 points. I prefer to run MM/HF as it is much cheaper.

 

Also, I disagree that the question comes down to how much you like speeders, I only run 3 in my RW army (I am considering a list with a good deal more speeders, but they would be in squadrons as FA.) As for controlling objectives with as many scoring bikes as I tend to run I don't need speeders to control objectives just contest. Also, you are unlikely to be able to run 10 tornados in most games as it costs a minimum 2425 points to run all of those speeders (with Ass Can) because you have to pay for 6 squads of 6 bikes, that total is with no upgrades. The advantage to squadrons of speeders is that they are only 1 KP if you run 10 individual KP that can go down to most types of weapons (even bolters if they rapid fire will get about 14 hits, so 2 glances which can possibly stop the speeder making it an easy target in the assault. Those same 2 glances against a squadron only a 1/6 chance each of bringing down a speeder and no chance of stopping them otherwise. They last thing you want is for your speeders to be stunned on turn 5 and unable to move onto objectives. I don't currently run my speeders in squadrons but I may in the future. Also, depending on the guns/ upgrades on the guants they most certainly can deal with a speeder (they most often have s 4 shooting, they can still glance it so that it cannot shoot, or they can blow off weapons, if they have adrenal glands they can hurt it in the assault as the would be St 4.

[HsojVvad]

Don't forget the RavenWing Assault (or is it Attack) squad with a speeder is scoring. That is the only Scoring Speeder in the game. So if the speeder is not a RWA then the speeder is not scoring.

 

So if you want a scoring RWA speeder then DA is for you. Just wanted to bring that up.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

i've been thinking about this subject so much it's got me thinking that maybe i should look into the DA codex for a mix of Green/Dark wings. I've got a pretty well put together template DemiCompany, using the C:SM. And i've seen other posters, use DA DW rules to "Count as" 1st company for Ultras, or Crimsons. i like most players, i feel are in the process of "gathering" models. Currently i have 5 bikes, 1 scout bike(which i'll convert to a SM bike) and 3 Land speeders.

i would still like to stick to an "Air" format, but maybe add a pair of nine man tactical squads in rhinos, joined by uber Hq's in PA. These Tactical squads would be geared for assault, or drive by shooting with flamers, plasma guns,stormbolters,or melta guns. then with the units i have run a x6 RWB squad + RWLS w/HB/AC, and then a Pair of HB/AC RWLS in my 2nd FA slot.

(other crazy thoughts were to add a FA PAGK 10m Squad, and a Elite DH =I= for the cheap long range Hood+Word of emperor) i really like the idea of a Pure Raven wing, but i keep looking at my cases thinking.. god how many more am i going to have to have??

[Bartali]

breng has it in his first post mostly, but just to go a little bit further :-

 

Ravenwing really don't want to get caught in cc, as they're rubbish at it. Multiple small units of three bikes + attack bike help to limit your losses if you do get caught, and Fearless ensures you don't run away in shooting.

 

Space Marine biker armies don't have Fearless, and thus need maxed squads to ensure they don't run off. They also need a command squad to help out if any of those big squads get caught in cc. Bike command squads are awesome sauce, but pricey - Captain and his kitted out command squad will run to around 500pts for six models.

[ValourousHeart]

@ breng77

 

I have hear that point of view a lot on this board... I guess it is just antithetic to the way my mind is wired. In 4th ed you had to move speeders over 6" to count as moving fast, but you could go as far as 12" and still fire everything. In the current ed you can move up to 6" and fire everything and up to 12" and fire 1 weapon. In the last ed I would move my speeders 6.1" and in this ed I move them a flat 6"... not really much change to my play style. Sure that fraction of an inch means that I am hit in CC on 4+ instead of 6+... but really, if you got into CC with my speeders they deserve to go down. And just because I am moving 6" most turns so I can fire both weapons doesn't mean that I am completely blind to that zergging unit that is going to reach me next turn... well they would if I don't move far enough... or kill the unit.

 

You mentioned that you didn't think the AC is to many points for a weapon that you will only be shooting a few times. Would it be any less than you are firing your HF now? You are moving 12" every turn, and you will start at least 24" away, so you won't be firing it turn 1 or possibly turn 2. My experience with HF speeders is if they do not wipe out the squad they are targeting they get assaulted and wrecked the following turn. My experience with the AC speeders is that they have a synergistic range with the rest of the army that enables me to apply pressure from every unit at once. This leads most of my opponents to misjudge which units are the greatest threat at the moment, and usually leads them to target my attack bikes which have already wrecked a LR, and so from my perspective are not likely to do much else this game. And after all, 1 shot did just pay for all 5.

 

You also mentioned that the MM/HF speeder is much cheaper than a speeder with an AC... 25 pts... at 2500 points that is 1% of my points... when you calculate in the 3 that I actually pay for (Sammy's doesn't really cost anything extra, and the ones from the RAS only have the one weapon load so take it or leave it) we are still only looking at 3% or 75 pts... I am sure that there are some good things that I could buy with those points. But not much, and not really anything that can provide the utility that the AC provides.

 

You can't think about speeders without thinking about their weapon ranges. A MM/AC speeder has a threat range of 30"... that means if you start a speeder dead center of the board there are only 4 places you can hide a land raider where it can't be within range in a 6" move. But from my experience the only time that there isn't something within 30" of my speeders is because I have tabled everything on this half of the board, and a meager 6" more still won't get me in range. The MM/HF speeder has a 36" range with the MM and a 17" range with the HF (likely to hit 3-4 models at this range, or 20" range to touch just 1 guy). Sure we both would like to get into the sweet spot extra D6 with our MM, but it isn't much of an issue when you add in the AC, that load out is more likely to get a damaging hit than just a single MM.

 

You are right about not likely getting to have 10 independent land speeders in a list. But 9 is very doable for DA at 2500 pts. Sure you discount the scoring aspect of land speeder... or at least you will until you realize that 40/44 models in my army are scoring... which means you will need to table me in 2 objective missions. And as for the 1 KP mission the number of KP i have in my list isn't that much higher that most of the players I face. I have 19 KP at 2500 pts, and my experience is that most armies are going to have 15 to 25 at that point level.

 

I guess our experience is the key factor here. You haven't used speeder squadrons so only have mathhammer to go by, whereas I did used to run my speeders in squadrons. I used to run 3 squadrons of 2 speeders with MM/AC + MM. I figured they could always move 12" and fire to the same effect as just the one moving at 6". The problem really came in with the upgrading immobilized to wrecked. Sure immobilized sucks for a speeders, but so does wrecked. The question is which sucks more? If the speeder is wrecked it is useless... if it is immobilized at least it can still shoot. When you are talking about an army that is in essence a gun line (a very mobile gun line, but still effectively a gun line) still being able to shoot is key to success. The people I play against don't want my speeders immobilized, they want them to stop shooting. If my speeders are not shooting that means that my opponents are not picking up handfuls of models at a time. The damage table is already not friendly to the speeder with only 1 of the 6 options that still allows you to shoot, does it really make sense to take an option that changes that ratio to 0 of 6.

 

I think you have a flaw in your example which proves my point. Lets assume that you are comparing 2 single speeders vs. 1 squadron of 2 speeders. In your example, with 2 glancing hits I would have 1 speeder that is immobilized they may also be stunned or with a weapon destroyed. The worst I am looking at is either 2 weapon destroyed (taking both guns) or 2 immobilized (taking my speed and one gun). But as I said above, I am not blind, so why would I willingly let you get your marines within rapid fire range. Now we take your squadron.. those 2 glances are applied one to each speeder. Now we haven't rolled for the damage results yet, because just like with infantry you assign the wound, not the failed armor save. I don't know if your group was playing that right or wrong, most people do get that wrong, and that is I believe because vehicle squadrons were really rare before the IG codex. So the one you put on the HF gets immobilized... opps that now is wrecked, the other gets stunned or weapon destroyed, you really hope that they don't get a second immobilized. So now it back to our turn... I have 1 fully functioning speeder, and 1 immobilized one that may or may not be able to shoot. You have 1 wrecked speeder and the other is either unarmed, can't shoot, or wrecked. If there is a flaw in my logic please let me know... Now I understand that when you said no chance of stopping your speeder I know you meant stopping them from moving, but maybe the goal isn't to stop you moving, it is to stop you shooting.

 

Now consider if we add a little to your example. You have taken a squad with 10 bolters. Why didn't you take any special weapons? A melta gun would be in range. And the results wouldn't be much different, I would have one messed up or wrecked speeder and one not touched at all and you would have 2 messed up or wrecked speeders. Sure we both lost a kill point but I still have a second speeder to exact retribution.

[breng77]

@ ValourousHeart

 

You mentioned that you didn't think the AC is to many points for a weapon that you will only be shooting a few times. Would it be any less than you are firing your HF now? You are moving 12" every turn, and you will start at least 24" away, so you won't be firing it turn 1 or possibly turn 2. My experience with HF speeders is if they do not wipe out the squad they are targeting they get assaulted and wrecked the following turn. My experience with the AC speeders is that they have a synergistic range with the rest of the army that enables me to apply pressure from every unit at once. This leads most of my opponents to misjudge which units are the greatest threat at the moment, and usually leads them to target my attack bikes which have already wrecked a LR, and so from my perspective are not likely to do much else this game. And after all, 1 shot did just pay for all 5.

 

This Depends on the army I am facing, I may only fire the HF 1 or 2 times, but usually will combine a few speeders or a speeder and some bikes to wipe out a squad when I do, against horde armies the MM does not do that much and although the AssCan might kill 4 models that is only in a best case scenario. While my opponents also tend to target AB after they start blowing up vehicles that is not always the case, and if all they did was pop a couple rhinos (no LR were on the table) then they may not have paid for themselves just yet, so the speeders can be a distraction.

 

You also mentioned that the MM/HF speeder is much cheaper than a speeder with an AC... 25 pts... at 2500 points that is 1% of my points... when you calculate in the 3 that I actually pay for (Sammy's doesn't really cost anything extra, and the ones from the RAS only have the one weapon load so take it or leave it) we are still only looking at 3% or 75 pts... I am sure that there are some good things that I could buy with those points. But not much, and not really anything that can provide the utility that the AC provides.

 

Yes at 2500 points 75 points may not be much, but the only times I have played at that point level were at Ard Boyz, most tourneys (at least where I am) run at 1000-2000 points usually landing between 1500-1850 points, while 75 points is still not a lot of points other choices limit the number of points available to spend. I also don't run full RAS (only 3 bikes) so I cannot take the speeder option in this case.

 

You can't think about speeders without thinking about their weapon ranges. A MM/AC speeder has a threat range of 30"... that means if you start a speeder dead center of the board there are only 4 places you can hide a land raider where it can't be within range in a 6" move. But from my experience the only time that there isn't something within 30" of my speeders is because I have tabled everything on this half of the board, and a meager 6" more still won't get me in range. The MM/HF speeder has a 36" range with the MM and a 17" range with the HF (likely to hit 3-4 models at this range, or 20" range to touch just 1 guy). Sure we both would like to get into the sweet spot extra D6 with our MM, but it isn't much of an issue when you add in the AC, that load out is more likely to get a damaging hit than just a single MM.

 

All true but again I don't have the points in my list to spare.

 

I guess our experience is the key factor here. You haven't used speeder squadrons so only have mathhammer to go by, whereas I did used to run my speeders in squadrons. I used to run 3 squadrons of 2 speeders with MM/AC + MM. I figured they could always move 12" and fire to the same effect as just the one moving at 6". The problem really came in with the upgrading immobilized to wrecked. Sure immobilized sucks for a speeders, but so does wrecked. The question is which sucks more? If the speeder is wrecked it is useless... if it is immobilized at least it can still shoot. When you are talking about an army that is in essence a gun line (a very mobile gun line, but still effectively a gun line) still being able to shoot is key to success. The people I play against don't want my speeders immobilized, they want them to stop shooting. If my speeders are not shooting that means that my opponents are not picking up handfuls of models at a time. The damage table is already not friendly to the speeder with only 1 of the 6 options that still allows you to shoot, does it really make sense to take an option that changes that ratio to 0 of 6.

We differ in our thoughts about the role of a speeder in our army, for me speeders are utility, but mostly I use them to contest objectives late game, so keeping them moving is more important than keeping them shooting. If you are relying on them as the firepower for your army then your example is correct. For me I would rather have a speeder with no weapons that can move than a speeder with no movement that can shoot (assuming an objective based mission)

 

I think you have a flaw in your example which proves my point. Lets assume that you are comparing 2 single speeders vs. 1 squadron of 2 speeders. In your example, with 2 glancing hits I would have 1 speeder that is immobilized they may also be stunned or with a weapon destroyed. The worst I am looking at is either 2 weapon destroyed (taking both guns) or 2 immobilized (taking my speed and one gun). But as I said above, I am not blind, so why would I willingly let you get your marines within rapid fire range. Now we take your squadron.. those 2 glances are applied one to each speeder. Now we haven't rolled for the damage results yet, because just like with infantry you assign the wound, not the failed armor save. I don't know if your group was playing that right or wrong, most people do get that wrong, and that is I believe because vehicle squadrons were really rare before the IG codex. So the one you put on the HF gets immobilized... opps that now is wrecked, the other gets stunned or weapon destroyed, you really hope that they don't get a second immobilized. So now it back to our turn... I have 1 fully functioning speeder, and 1 immobilized one that may or may not be able to shoot. You have 1 wrecked speeder and the other is either unarmed, can't shoot, or wrecked. If there is a flaw in my logic please let me know... Now I understand that when you said no chance of stopping your speeder I know you meant stopping them from moving, but maybe the goal isn't to stop you moving, it is to stop you shooting.

 

Now consider if we add a little to your example. You have taken a squad with 10 bolters. Why didn't you take any special weapons? A melta gun would be in range. And the results wouldn't be much different, I would have one messed up or wrecked speeder and one not touched at all and you would have 2 messed up or wrecked speeders. Sure we both lost a kill point but I still have a second speeder to exact retribution.

 

Your example holds true for squadrons of 2 speeders (which I would never run) nor would I run 1 squadron in place of 2 or 3 individual speeders. Also, if a tactical squad is mounted it can be difficult to keep them out of rapid fire range unless you are moving over 6 inches a turn, or destroying/immobilizing their ride.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

so not to prove how daft i am, if you DONT take the master of Raven wing, then all Ravenwing units are taken from the FA of the FOC, and do NOT count as scoring?

Can you still take a unit of five land speeders in a green-raven force?

[breng77]

Yes they are fast attack and yes you can still take 5 speeder support squads.

[FerociousBeast]

Not to appear like a complete dunce, but what's an Air army? I'm somewhat familiar with Water armies since Ravenwing players often refer to the concept. But I'll admit I don't have a good grasp on either. Water armies react, etc etc, so need mobility and all. What does an Air army do? Float like a butterfly, uh, ... float like a butterfly?

[Bringer of Redemption]

Not to appear like a complete dunce, but what's an Air army? I'm somewhat familiar with Water armies since Ravenwing players often refer to the concept. But I'll admit I don't have a good grasp on either. Water armies react, etc etc, so need mobility and all. What does an Air army do? Float like a butterfly, uh, ... float like a butterfly?

I'm not that strong on the concept either, but here's an article from the librarium that discusses all three, though the focus is on water: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showarticle=40

 

--BoR

[krewl]

The idea is in broad lines: (Though most lines are purist ideals, and army's tend to have a mix of 2 or more even in their units.)

 

Air;

Fast armies, like to use thier speed to create local superiority, as they spend less points on hitty shooty and toughness. Examples are Biker army's like SM bikes or RW, or all jumpacks (Can be air but tend to prefer CC also so blend between Air and Fire)

Earth:

They outlast your army, usually coupled with a bucket full of dakka. Bulked up Space marines in rhino's with dakka predators, rifleman dreads, plenty of shooting in a hard core to kill. E.g. Nurgle chaos marines, either plenty of wounds or hard saving/fnp/multiple wounds. Take punishment and lose not so much while whitling you away. Usually they shoot you but can have a counter charge unit in there.

Fire:

Assault close combat killers, often need a bit of air for speed to get there, but also mass orks are this. Want to run up and stop you. Points go to either a lot of guys hitting you or a few guys hitting you a lot.

Some nids builds do this, horde orks play with this, Blood angels have recently gotten very good at this aswell.

Water:

The generalist type. Pretty good shooting, pretty good CC. playstyle is to outshoot assaulty units and outassault shooty units. Pure grey knights are the example in the topic linked above. The idea is to be flexible in waht role you chose depending on the situation. GK against genestealer, back up and shoot it, GK against Tau suits, run up and chop it.

 

In general the speedy movement of ravenwing (pure) makes it an air army, while most builds of SM bike army's tend to favour at least one hammer unit meant for strong CC. (Decked out command squad with character)

That they spend so much on CC power makes it more of a fire army with some air to get into CC where they want. That's all just theorycrafting, there are no hard devide lines where you say, left of me is 100% air, right is 100% fire.

 

Ravenwing can have an absurd amount of special weapons and as suchs are a shooty army. The funs do the killing, you STRONGLY dislike CC unless you are in the following one unit that CAN do CC in our RW list.:

 

Chaplain on bike.

RW squad with 6 guys, apothecary with plasma gun, banner bearer with plasma gun, sarge with fist, 3 normal bikers (abblative wounds.).

 

These are about as good as a 6 men Assault squad supported by a chaplain, and a bit harder to wound in return. So this is a pretty good CC squad, don't through them into hammer units like Thunderhammer stormshield termies or nob bikers and expect them to win. Nob bikers and TH/SS termies and their friends should meet the business end of your 2 plasmaguns, 1 plasmacannon, 7 multimelta's and 6 meltaguns. (that's my 1700 point RW list, see what I mean with plenty of special firepower?)

 

SM bikers tend to be with the command squad of doom, all powerweapons, storm shield on 4, meltaguns etc. they and a commander on bike can easily reach 500 points for 6 guys. Thats a hammer unit, if you see it with RW, shoot it, don't try CC unless you have no other chance :lol: (Slight is better then none right?).

Their troops are less able to split their firepower as RW comes in smaller blocks, they can put less specials in a list then we can. That is if you build your RW list like mine with plenty of 3 men units with an attack bike, going for maximal special weapon saturation, and a lot of fireing options. SM bike squads start at 3, with an attack bike and an extra biker it's 5 the mininum for them to count as troops.

 

RW speeders have the tornado pattern which I would stay away from (to little damage aoutput for 100 points). For 75 I'd take the MM/HF anytime.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Seems to me, that i would, at least in theory, like to use an Air/fast bike/speeder Marine army to Act like a scalpel, Swift and deadly to a target of choice. This of course, at least the idea of it, would need some sort of target selelction, ie like KILLHAMMER target theory. But for me, i wonder, if DA raven wing can wield and bring to bear the Raw fire power needed for this kind of army design. 500pts for 20 Str 6 rending at 24"+ 15 str 5 ap 5, is of course nothing to sneeze at or turn my nose up at either. (x5 LS w/AC+HB) + x2 Mg shots+x1 MM+x3 HB/x4Ac shots from a small RWA squad...x3? so that's 30 dice..plus the 20 from the FA squad of five LS... so like a total of 50 (+24 str4 bolter shots)dice a turn before your 1st losses

but i ponder the idea of running From the SM 5th Dex X2 commmand squads on bikes w/ x4 plasma guns and Stormshields or melta guns with dual Capts on bikes bearing plasma pistols + hellfire shells. Back this up by x3 LSS w/ Assault cannons (x12 Rending shots) and x3 five man scout squads, armed accordingly....maybe run a ChronusCrusader with a Elite DH inquisitor w/ x2 mystics+hood and word of the emperor...(more water based but could be like the house that feLL on the Witch! Abor the WITCH!!! sry...i feel better now.

so 74 dice ranging from str 4-8, or 50 shots ranging from str4-8 (+19 shots if you include the LRC with Chronus+MM+SB)

Thoughts? C&C

i can see how fearless would be required but a double edge sword for RW.

[IanSturrock]

The real benefit RW have over C:SM bikes isn't Fearless -- it's the ability to Scout forward if you get 1st turn, or Outflank if you get 2nd, with both our bikes and our attack bikes.

[HsojVvad]

The real benefit RW have over C:SM bikes isn't Fearless -- it's the ability to Scout forward if you get 1st turn, or Outflank if you get 2nd, with both our bikes and our attack bikes.

I thought SM bikes can scout forward. Why else are people pissed that DA can't turbo boost during the scout phase while SM can?

[Uguai Stormseer]

I thought SM bikes can scout forward. Why else are people pissed that DA can't turbo boost during the scout phase while SM can?

 

You may be thinking of C:SM Scout Bikers. They have Scout and Infiltrate.