Assaulty Vanilla?

[The Smiling Bandit]

Howdy folks.

 

The Dawn of War games finally convinced me that I really like the WH40K setting, so I've decided to start getting into the hobby. Picked up a bunch of models and a bunch of paint, as well as the rulebook at the vanilla codex. My army's going to end up primarily as a display piece, I guess, just something to work on in my free time, but I may take it for a spin on the tables once in a blue moon, so I don't want it to be totally useless. Trouble is, I like the idea of close combat Space Marines more than gunline Space Marines.

 

I understand this is difficult to do with the vanilla codex. Is it at least possible? From lurking about I get the impression that everyone either takes one token unit of TH/SS terminators in a LR as a counterpunch unit or skips dedicated CC units entirely. I'd be aiming for between 1500 and 1800ish points, and everything that's not TH/SS termies and is actually worth something in CC seems like it gets prohibitively expensive very quickly. Should I just double down with two units of assault terminators and two Land Raiders and have the rest of the list basically be gimped, or is there a way to cram more CC focus into smallish lists that I've overlooked?

 

Thanks for the help.

[minigun762]

Assault marines with a librarian or chaplain are a good start. So are command squads with a captain. Dreadnoughts are another option but work best.when supported by troopers.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Theres plenty of CC in the codex a rough run down:

 

Captain/Chapter Master

Command Squads

Honour Guard

Terminators (all varieties)

Assault marines

Vanguard Veterans

Dreadnoughts (All Varieties with DCCW)

 

Each fill different roles depending on how they are equipped. Using basic Tactical squads or scout squads you could use them to soften troops up and open up vehicles and use the assault units to rip into the enemy. We're not the best in CC so you'll have to make clever use of the tacticals or support units to work in your favour, but i reckon we pack more than enough CC and resilience to be more than a match!

 

My best advice would be not to go mad with any assault unit, 200 points for a base TH/SS (or Lightning Claw) should be your benchmark to measure your squads, i would take a CC leader such as Lysander or maybe Kantor (for that +1 attack) to make your units all the deadlier :lol:

[Brother_Fatiswon]

not to mention that the Cost of 2 LR and 2 CC terminator boxes, at MSRP is ball park $125+100+your local sale taxes. but that's off topic :to:

Personally for an Uber Assault focused Codex marine strike force (1500-1850) i would look towards

Scouts w/ccw and bp (x2 10 w/ sgt w/pf, in LRC)

a full tactical with plasma cannon/flamer/+stormbolter in the 3rd LRC

2 Chaplins in PA, both with Power fists

-----this is 1495 or pretty close.. it's in your face.. the scouts are fearless and wicked with battle lust due to the chappies the tactical is used for close range fire support. only trouble with this CC focused lists.. is, NO range weapons to speak of, and little to no AV13/14 minus the 4 front line Power fists doing all you heavy lifting.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Ok coming from a purely Codex player who is a power gamer. This is what does and does not work, in competitive settings:

 

Command squads do not work, if you insist on taking them keep it simple and cheap. otherwise you will be dissapointed

TH/SS terminators do well, ten work the best with a chaplain :)

vanguard do not work

assault squads are a waste of time

Relic Blade and stormshield captains do well

Ironclad dreadnoughts do well

 

those are the facts have fun

 

edit: I wouldnt bother with scouts either

and Librarians are very effective as long as you give them TDA and stormshield. run your HQ's with terminators not command squads

[Jackelope King]

Brother-Chaplain Gaius mostly has it right. Just don't bother with the chaplain. It's a wasted 100 points. I mean, really... how much more killy do you need TH/SS Terminators so be? Get the Librarian instead and get some psychic defenses and Null Zone.

 

Also, Command Squads can be plenty killy, but they need to be mounted on bikes. I wouldn't bother with unmounted command squads.

 

And if you go with Ironclads, make sure you have at least 2 in your army and send them up largely unupgraded. They get expensive fast. Run them on foot across the field with other threats like 10 TH/SS Terminators and you have some scary threats that demand your foe's immediate attention.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Brother-Chaplain Gaius mostly has it right. Just don't bother with the chaplain. It's a wasted 100 points. I mean, really... how much more killy do you need TH/SS Terminators so be? Get the Librarian instead and get some psychic defenses and Null Zone.

 

Also, Command Squads can be plenty killy, but they need to be mounted on bikes. I wouldn't bother with unmounted command squads.

 

And if you go with Ironclads, make sure you have at least 2 in your army and send them up largely unupgraded. They get expensive fast. Run them on foot across the field with other threats like 10 TH/SS Terminators and you have some scary threats that demand your foe's immediate attention.

 

Footslog 10 TH/SS terminators?

 

Edit: What about Honor Guard? They get expensive fast as well, but with artificer armor, power weapons, the reroll banner, and the ability for some models to carry relic blades, I think they'd be awfully killy, no?

 

Or two plain vanilla units of Assault Marines, one with Shrike/Shrike analogue and one with a jump Chaplain? I know Assault Marines suck, but would that mitigate their suckiness enough?

[Jackelope King]

Footslog 10 TH/SS terminators?

You can only footslog Terminators if you have other threats on the table. And they have to be nasty. Otherwise, they need a Land Raider.

 

EDIT: There is one exception to this, but it isn't an assault-heavy army.

 

EDIT 2: Honor guard stink. No way to get invuln saves mean they get wrecked by anything with power weapons.

 

Assault Marines usually stink. See Blood Angels for the exception to this (as they can fill the whole sky with jump packs). They do the job against light infantry... but so do Tactical Marines. How you propose to use them would just make them an expensive Shrike-delivery system and a fearless unit that's begging to be tarpitted.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Well, that's depressing. :D

 

So basically, anything short of 2000 points, and you can really only afford to have one infantry assault unit that's actually worth the point investment. That's a shame, I was hoping to be able to at least find two that'd work, and give the rest of the list a close-range focus.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Oh i dont know about that, what you have to remember is that marines aren't meant for CC in the same way other factions are, but that doesnt mean we can't hold out own.

 

Id say any unit properly equipped is a very real threat, perhaps not the equal of another factions CC unit, but certainly no slouch.

 

I mean the regular assault marine isnt the strongest person out there, but with a powerfist and a couple of flamers can pose a threat to a lot of units on the board, move fast and wipe weaker infantry off the board.

 

Id argue that honour guard are good, artificier armour on each unit makes em tough as terminators (no ward save i know) but they have so many attacks and with such strong weapons they'll probably kill whatever they're pointed at or at least give it a bloody nose, just look after them!

 

Dreadnaughts are good because they can be used in CC and work well outside CC a good mix to have.

 

We have plenty of CC in the codex for you to use and id say a lot of it is a real danger, just remember it isnt as strong as some enemy units so choose your fights and plug the short falls of your army with appropriate units.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I play real shooty lists for example I'd cram 8 lascannons and ~3,4 meltaguns with as much plasma as possible in my lists supported by a counter charge of ironclads and 10 TH/SS terms. It forces your opponent come to you, because from all that shooting they're crippled by turn 2, So it allows you to dictate when and where you need to shut them down with that unstoppable melee.

 

oh and sternguard are as good as assault marines, So i take them because they kill everything in 1 turn as well.

 

 

So in short, Codex marines melee is only effective when supported by a lot of shooting. otherwise you'll just be outclassed or outmaneuvered.

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

Assault squads, they are good WITHOUT PACKS!

I cannot stress this enough, 10 assault marines with a TH and 2xFlamers in a rhino is way better than a pack squad. You can do the same in a Razorback with the IC of choice. Also scouts can make for competent CC. Ironclads are amazing. All Termies have amazing CC capability. vangaurd are better replaced by assault marines or command squad. That's about the facts.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Id be tempted to say run something that lets you threaten the enemy with so many other things your other units are going to be safe to assault without attracting too much power, perhaps something like:

 

Pedro Kantor

 

Honour guard 3 extra members, Relic Blade, Chapter banner

Land Raider

 

Dreadnought Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer

 

Dreadnought Multi Melta, Heavy Flamer

Drop Pod

 

10 Sternguard with Combi meltas, Powerfist

Rhino

 

10 CC Scouts with Combi melta

 

10 CC Scouts with Powerfist

 

 

Land Speeder storm with Multi melta

 

Land Speeder storm with Multi melta

 

Vindicator

 

Vindicator

 

Comes to 2005 (i think) . Now im not sure how well this would do, but generally every troop you have is capable of getting stuck in nicely, which more or less covers anti infantry! The rest of the army is support, the Land raider can mop up either troops or vehicles, the vindicators are a threat to everything, the land speeders can threaten armour and rapidly deploy scouts where needed. The dreadnought drops in and makes a nuisance of itself so that the rest of your army can get into position

 

The Sternguard are a real threat to whatever they look at and the honour guard will make light work of most enemies, the scouts can work well as mop up units and thanks to cantor all of your assaulty units are going to be all the more dangerous and make sternguard scoring!

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

dreads, scouts, landspeeders and honour guard too fragile. in my opinion

 

also kantors +1 attack aura doesnt stack with honour guards chapter banner

 

overall its a very mobile list that's very fragile and competent players will know exactly how to pick you apart. I played a marine player in a tourny just the other day who was running vindicators landspeeders scouts and honour guard. shot all landspeeders down in 1 turn with lascannons, crippled vindicators by turn 3, and honour guard died all too easy to a tac squad with plas pistol meltagun and power weapon. with no invuln save they're NOT worth their points in the least bit.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

It was a suggestion really, but the general idea i think is that if you are going CC oriented then you want to be able to cover all the other bases effectively. Now you could easily replace those honour guard with TH/SS termies for less and replace kantor with a tough captain or something.

 

As for me i personally dislike TH/SS they're very boring as a choice but they are probably our best CC troops, honour guard can ride in Rhinos or razorbacks (which is a small advantage, but one they have over termies) and are tougher than vanguard veterans and assault marines. (you've probably figured i like the lads)

 

Our marines have reasonable assault troops but we are overall a short ranged shooting army operating well at 12-24 inches, assault specialists fill a niche that other units can't do well but it is an important one. Making an army out of our assault specialists is possible but you need to be very on the ball, as the enemy knows what they are going to do in the battle and can exploit that, so you will need all your units to hit their A game to win.

 

Id say that every unit is fragile in the codex unsupported, they all need to work together! But id say that generally yes it is more than possible to do an assault army in vanilla.

 

Just understand what units you take and make sure that you get the practice down with them, if you go mostly assault you'll need to make sure you can reliably take out enemy tanks and enemy elite specialists (since some enemies will just munch your general assault troops without too much care) if everything works together well then your army will reap the benefits, if it has a problem that the enemy can exploit it will suffer. But id say good luck and build a list you want, because there are ways of doing it! Even if it isn't the 'Best' choice it can work, most importantly do it your way and have fun :lol:

[pattison]

Assaulty Vanilla? Forget it...

[The Smiling Bandit]

Just understand what units you take and make sure that you get the practice down with them, if you go mostly assault you'll need to make sure you can reliably take out enemy tanks and enemy elite specialists (since some enemies will just munch your general assault troops without too much care) if everything works together well then your army will reap the benefits, if it has a problem that the enemy can exploit it will suffer. But id say good luck and build a list you want, because there are ways of doing it! Even if it isn't the 'Best' choice it can work, most importantly do it your way and have fun :ermm:

 

 

Heh. I'm having trouble coming up with what those ways would be. Assault Terminators are unquestionably our best all-around general assault specialists; Honor Guard with a Relic Blade can tear through a lot, theoretically, but without invuln saves they're just waiting to get pasted. Plus they're more expensive than Assault Terminators in equal numbers.

 

Trouble with Assault Terminators is that a unit of five and their requisite Land Raider transport comes out to a hefty 465 points. You could theoretically cram two of those into a 1500 point list, but then you're quite one-trick pony and arguably a little cheesy. You could get two ten-man Assault Squads in for basically the cost of the Assault Terminators + LR, but even with a Jump Captain in one and a Jump Chaplain in the other, they're not going to kill anything fast, if at all.

 

So essentially it boils down to roll with 1 Terminator squad in a LR, or roll with none. If you roll with none, your other assault options are too expensive or too craptastic. Depressing.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Our Wolfy and Bloody counterparts obviously have the upper hand against us in CC, but fret not! take 10 CC scouts with a powerfisat and an attached chaplain and you have a pretty decent CC squad. On a charge you get 36 regular, 3 PF, 4 power weapon attacks, all reroll to hit. Ouch!

 

Put them in a landraider and watch your enemy underestimate the power of CC scouts.

[spartan249]

I'm not going to try to delude you that "assaulty" C:SMs can be done. It simply can not be done. You can attempt to, and you may catch some newbs with their pants down, but try this sort of army on anyone with half a brain and some experience/understanding of their army and you're screwed big time. C:SMs simply does not have the effective CC troops you need to form the backbone for such a force. Assault Terminators and some builds of Vanguard Vets have the potential to really kick some butt, but you can only have so many of those (read: 1, maybe 2, Assault Terminator squads and maybe 1 vanguard vet squad), and that's not what makes an army a CC one. You really need a backbone of Tier 1.5 CC troops (Khorne Berzerkers, Death Company, Blood Claws, Initiate Squads, Troop Assault Squads), which is something C:SMs has none of.

 

My suggestion is to either look at another codex or go with another strategy.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I'd have to respectfully disagree because I've beaten knorne lists and blood angels in close combat slug fests before.

 

All it took was a bunch of assault terms a good captain and an ironclad or two. Didn't even need to use Marneus Calgar, but I have before and it was the most fun I've ever had.

[Br.Pat]

Space Marines are a combined-arms force. While it is possible to have an assault orientated build, you'll find that it will be inferior to the builds of dedicated assault orientated armies.

 

While every list has diferent playstyles, I believe that the best way to play Space Marines is to (significantly) soften them up with shooting and then finish them off in assault.

 

Space Marines can be decent in assault, and have decent firepower (although not very long-ranged). However they excel in neither and therefore must be used synergistically.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

What did the ten man squad of Hammanator say to the howling banshee squad? Nothing, they all died last turn, because they got "doomed by the Farseer, and lite up by those dark reapers across the board.. and then Stabbed in the face at I5.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Plus they're more expensive than Assault Terminators in equal numbers.

Not true, a full HG weights in at 360, add the banner and A relic blade(TH the better choice here), and your even with a full THSS TDA squad at 400 pts.

You could get two ten-man Assault Squads in for basically the cost of the Assault Terminators + LR, but even with a Jump Captain in one and a Jump Chaplain in the other, they're not going to kill anything fast, if at all.

if you can't punch your way out of a wet paper bag..then maybe you be playing orks or magic.

So essentially it boils down to roll with 1 Terminator squad in a LR, or roll with none. If you roll with none, your other assault options are too expensive or too craptastic. Depressing.

too expensive is an Hoard style sisters of battle army at 2500 points, and if you think that Hammanators/in a LRC taxi IS your boiled down, only option. Well that IMO has to be the truest example of what is depressing. It was the same freaking thing back in the shift from 2nd to 3rd.. when the only reason to buy the Space marine codex, was the fact that it had a buff to the stat line of ATTACK bikes..what was it two wounds, and Sv2+. GOD help you if you ever thought about running a Marine army without Attack bikes...So you know what?? LOVE IT or LEAVE IT ALONE. jactasz

[Br.Pat]

What did the ten man squad of Hammanator say to the howling banshee squad? Nothing, they all died last turn, because they got "doomed by the Farseer, and lite up by those dark reapers across the board.. and then Stabbed in the face at I5.

 

And why do you assume that someone would be stupid enough to do that. If you go after the howling banshees without killing the farseer first then you have no grasp of tactics.

 

Oh btw what did the howling banshees say when they were mowed down by 2 Hurricaine Bolters and 1 Assault Cannon lololololololawlll!!1

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I've had hammernators doomed and charged by howling banshees. I dont know why your terminators behaved like little girls But mine said "This is my House" right before they wiped the squad. Then my opponent said why did I do that?!

 

TH/SS terms are the answer to everything. Mine have survived 50+ Nob attacks only to lose 2-3 to casualties and swing back insta killing most of them, forcing more armor saves and wiping that squad as well. Theres nothing they cant do!