Assaulty Vanilla?

[pattison]

TH/SS terms are the answer to everything. Mine have survived 50+ Nob attacks only to lose 2-3 to casualties and swing back insta killing most of them, forcing more armor saves and wiping that squad as well. Theres nothing they cant do!

Okay I think your termies are from a different factory than ours.

Or your dices are...

[Brother_Fatiswon]

@br.Pat: Assuming that you are referring to your LRC weapon systems: Cover saves. plus good luck getting both of your hurricane bolters to bear due to fire arcs.

@ BC Gaius: Nothing but chase down anything that moves 12' per turn. DoH!

 

Btw i love melting full squads of THSS terminators, it seems to happen about every other game..(x4 PC or x4 pg, libby w/null, in cover,+ vortex of doom for when i see the whites of your eyes. oh and for your OH SO POWERFUL LRC.. x5 vanguards w/jump packs and x5 melta bombs, turn 2-3 deep strike, BOOOOM goes your taxi.. and ooo look.. here comes x4 plasma pie plates for ya, w/that side of Nullzone for your SS. (yes.. with a LRC full of 8 THSS, you will be within 24" by the start of my 2nd turn)

[DerekLee688]

Turn 2-3, game is half over, or I hope you go first. Who's hammernators aren't already pounding something to death by the end of turn two?

[spartan249]

One unit of terminators in a Land Raider does NOT make the build an assaulty build. About the best you can do is to use a shooty build with CC back-up. Other marine codices have the ability to make truly assaulty builds.

[Br.Pat]

TH/SS terms are the answer to everything. Mine have survived 50+ Nob attacks only to lose 2-3 to casualties and swing back insta killing most of them, forcing more armor saves and wiping that squad as well. Theres nothing they cant do!

Okay I think your termies are from a different factory than ours.

Or your dices are...

 

A person who uses terminators that way deserves to have them die that way.

 

Oh and btw, last time I checked bolters had a range of 24" and ACs 36"... suffering 2-3 turns of shooting will certainly hurt that banshee squad.

[The Smiling Bandit]

One unit of terminators in a Land Raider does NOT make the build an assaulty build. About the best you can do is to use a shooty build with CC back-up. Other marine codices have the ability to make truly assaulty builds.

 

Yeah, actually, I was looking over BA lists, and figured out that it's exactly what I want...

 

...except you're either stuck using a special character HQ or a Reclusiarch. No RB/SS/AA vanilla Captains. I'm averse to Counts As, and my chapter fluff downplays chaplains quite a bit. So I'm back to square one.

 

I dunno, maybe I should give in and play a shooty 'nilla army, but the idea of a list full of nothing but jump packs that's actually competitive is so damn tempting.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

but the idea of a list full of nothing but jump packs that's actually competitive is so damn tempting.

Sounds like a FleshTearer marine wishing he was a preherasy Raptor.. B) if it's all about Jump pack infantry, then Fleshtearers all the way man.

 

@br.pat; Wow, that's a straw! Way to grasp at it.

[The Smiling Bandit]

but the idea of a list full of nothing but jump packs that's actually competitive is so damn tempting.

Sounds like a FleshTearer marine wishing he was a preherasy Raptor.. :) if it's all about Jump pack infantry, then Fleshtearers all the way man.

 

@br.pat; Wow, that's a straw! Way to grasp at it.

 

Aren't Fleshtearers even more vampirey than the uber-vampirey Blood Angels? I don't like space vampires.

 

If I went BA, it'd be a DIY chapter that wasn't space vampire geneseed but whose training cadre at founding consisted of BA or BA successor SMs. That way I get the BA tactics, get to avoid all the crazy space vampire stuff - like Death Companies and Mephiston, Lord of Death - and the fluff-monkey on my back doesn't start stabbing me with a fork.

 

Except I've gleaned that the BA 'dex has a Red Thirst special rule for all units - I haven't actually picked up the codex yet, I'm just piecing stuff together - so there goes that idea, as it seems that if I want to have a jump infantry list, they have to watch Twilight in their downtime.

[Ookami_81]

Frankly BA fluff is well done, and to me, even without vampiric traits, it's very difficult in the 40K display to be a super soldier with a close combat oriented doctrine (and the permanent sword of Damocles of chaos temptation over your head) without developping a certain taste for blood and guts spilled everywhere...

I personnaly like BAs, a lot, (don't use them a lot because I love bikes even more than assault marines ^^). But I dislike, just like you, the concept of using... things... like Death Company and Mephiston. I love the "Angels of Death" theme, so I'm all into "sanguinary guard and Dante" based armies. To me they are the pinnacle of what a transfigured space marine should be, and they reflect the noble aspects of the chapter. From men, to space marines, to angels, these guys are truly ascended (not like in "chaos like ascended", if you see what I mean).

Have a look in the BA subforum in army lists, some people build armies with Dante, sanguinary guards with priests (as troops !), and sometimes the Sanguinor, and that's all. Small army, tricky to play well, but sometimes suprisingly effective, and very fun to play. It's not the most effective army in the world, but it's:

- strongly themed and fun

- all jet pack

- not "crappy vampires of doom in PA" at all.

 

My 2 cents.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

TH/SS terms are the answer to everything. Mine have survived 50+ Nob attacks only to lose 2-3 to casualties and swing back insta killing most of them, forcing more armor saves and wiping that squad as well. Theres nothing they cant do!

Okay I think your termies are from a different factory than ours.

Or your dices are...

 

A person who uses terminators that way deserves to have them die that way.

 

Oh and btw, last time I checked bolters had a range of 24" and ACs 36"... suffering 2-3 turns of shooting will certainly hurt that banshee squad.

 

 

;) But you're not going to get 2-3 turns of shooting at Banshees, omae. They're going to ride around in a Wave Serpent, impervious to 90% of your shooting, until they're damn well ready to assault your Doomed unit.

 

Back on topic!

 

I looked at trying to make an Assault-oriented C:SM army. I figured it this way and that, with a mixes of Assault Squads, Terminators of both kind, Vanguards and command Squads and Honor Guard oh my! And then I gave up an embraced the C:SM short-range shooting mastery, but there are several others codices that will chop a C:SM assault army to pieces. Chaos and Space Wolves do it with volume of attacks. Blood Angels do it with special rules, special units, and Assault Squads as troops. The best that C:SM can hope for is a balanced 50/50 shooting/assault army.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Frankly BA fluff is well done, and to me, even without vampiric traits, it's very difficult in the 40K display to be a super soldier with a close combat oriented doctrine (and the permanent sword of Damocles of chaos temptation over your head) without developping a certain taste for blood and guts spilled everywhere...

I personnaly like BAs, a lot, (don't use them a lot because I love bikes even more than assault marines ^^). But I dislike, just like you, the concept of using... things... like Death Company and Mephiston. I love the "Angels of Death" theme, so I'm all into "sanguinary guard and Dante" based armies. To me they are the pinnacle of what a transfigured space marine should be, and they reflect the noble aspects of the chapter. From men, to space marines, to angels, these guys are truly ascended (not like in "chaos like ascended", if you see what I mean).

Have a look in the BA subforum in army lists, some people build armies with Dante, sanguinary guards with priests (as troops !), and sometimes the Sanguinor, and that's all. Small army, tricky to play well, but sometimes suprisingly effective, and very fun to play. It's not the most effective army in the world, but it's:

- strongly themed and fun

- all jet pack

- not "crappy vampires of doom in PA" at all.

 

My 2 cents.

 

I understand why some people like their fluff, it's just not for me. Angels, vampires, whatever they're supposed to be - and with rules like Red Thirst I see it as hard to argue that they're not vampires - their fluff's just way too over the top for my tastes.

 

Unfortunately, their codex is almost perfect, mechanically, for what I want. If fluff didn't matter to me, it wouldn't even be a decision, I'd be making a BA variant right now.

 

I looked at trying to make an Assault-oriented C:SM army. I figured it this way and that, with a mixes of Assault Squads, Terminators of both kind, Vanguards and command Squads and Honor Guard oh my! And then I gave up an embraced the C:SM short-range shooting mastery, but there are several others codices that will chop a C:SM assault army to pieces. Chaos and Space Wolves do it with volume of attacks. Blood Angels do it with special rules, special units, and Assault Squads as troops. The best that C:SM can hope for is a balanced 50/50 shooting/assault army.

 

I don't even think you can get to 50/50. If you could, I'd be fine with the vanilla 'dex.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

with rules like Red Thirst I see it as hard to argue that they're not vampires - their fluff's just way too over the top for my tastes.

 

Why not make your own fluff version of it then? Sure its going to be the same effect as the rules, but it'll perhaps sate your own minds disdain for it. Claim your chapter makes use of an combat steroid in the indoctrination perhaps that helps them focus on fighting in close combat (for the red thirst), or something along those lines. I mean that way they aren't all about being bloody (though a CC army will inevitably love the slaughter of CC hence why they do it in the first place!) but focus on that doctrine.

 

Just some ideas for ya!

[JamesI]

Smiling Bandit, as you seem to dislike BA fluff, have you looked into Black Templars? That might fit what you want better.

[Ookami_81]

Choosing between blindly religious fanatics using scouts as meatshields and space vampires with an addiction to their chainswords is not an easy choice... Try Space Wolves maybe ? Beardy vikings in space feasting with gallons of ale and being kind with normal humans... well as much as a space marine can be that is to say...

[Khavos]

Choosing between blindly religious fanatics using scouts as meatshields and space vampires with an addiction to their chainswords is not an easy choice... Try Space Wolves maybe ? Beardy vikings in space feasting with gallons of ale and being kind with normal humans... well as much as a space marine can be that is to say...

 

The one and only problem with Space Wolves is that they don't have successor chapters.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Choosing between blindly religious fanatics using scouts as meatshields and space vampires with an addiction to their chainswords is not an easy choice... Try Space Wolves maybe ? Beardy vikings in space feasting with gallons of ale and being kind with normal humans... well as much as a space marine can be that is to say...

 

If I could ditch Red Thirst, Blood Angels would be completely fine. I believe I read somewhere than when a new chapter is founded, they receive a training cadre from another, established chapter. I'd just do a DIY recent founding that had a Blood Angels/successor training cadre. Voila. Blood Angels tactics, no wings, no space vampires.

 

Can't do it with the BA codex, though, because of that damn "I vaaaaant to drink yur blooood" rule.

[Ookami_81]

Can't do it with the BA codex, though, because of that damn "I vaaaaant to drink yur blooood" rule.

 

Yeah, but it gives you furious charge, basically what you want to be good in CC, and what lacks in C:SM...

Why are vanilla assault marines "poor" CC units ? In three points:

1) too frail

2) not enough attacks, too slow and too weak

3) cannot be troops

BA codex answers:

1) sanguinary priests

2) furious charge

3) yes they can

 

I'm sure you can find a reason to emulate red thirst without speaking of blood. A combat drug, another CC training method, a new name, what you want. And when your opponent asks: what is the "psycho enhanced drug of doom" special rule, simply take a breath up and say without thinking "uhh, red thirst ?" very fast. ;)

 

I only see that for you. Or angry marines.

[DAG42]

Smiling Bandit, as you seem to dislike BA fluff, have you looked into Black Templars? That might fit what you want better.

 

I agree with this. My friends Templar army just chews up Nobz and anything else that gets to close.

[DAG42]

Choosing between blindly religious fanatics using scouts as meatshields and space vampires with an addiction to their chainswords is not an easy choice... Try Space Wolves maybe ? Beardy vikings in space feasting with gallons of ale and being kind with normal humans... well as much as a space marine can be that is to say...

 

The one and only problem with Space Wolves is that they don't have successor chapters.

 

Not exactly true. Weren't all 2nd founding records lost or destroyed? Which means there are plenty of unknown chapters floating around. So he could create anything off the SW codex.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Choosing between blindly religious fanatics using scouts as meatshields and space vampires with an addiction to their chainswords is not an easy choice... Try Space Wolves maybe ? Beardy vikings in space feasting with gallons of ale and being kind with normal humans... well as much as a space marine can be that is to say...

 

The one and only problem with Space Wolves is that they don't have successor chapters.

 

Not exactly true. Weren't all 2nd founding records lost or destroyed? Which means there are plenty of unknown chapters floating around. So he could create anything off the SW codex.

 

Perfectly true, actually. They Space Wolves tried to found a successor chapter, but the successors all went berzerk or died during gene-seed implantation or some such because they didn't have the canis helix to help their bodies adapt to Russ' gene-seed.

[Khavos]

Perfectly true, actually. They Space Wolves tried to found a successor chapter, but the successors all went berzerk or died during gene-seed implantation or some such because they didn't have the canis helix to help their bodies adapt to Russ' gene-seed.

 

Your source, please?

[mowglie]

Your source, please?

 

Codex SW, 2nd edition.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Brothers

[Warprat]

Then there are the Dark Angels... Terminators deep striking with normal bikes being able to scout. You lose out on the double effective storm shields and cyclones, but 1/2 of your termies (rounded up) can deep strike turn 1. And they can mix assault and shooty weapons like Space Wolves. They can also count as troops, and can take a banner, but have the older style appothecary. The scouts have good stats, but are elites.

 

They are not as popular, because the codex was a trial run for the later 5th Ed SM codexes. But it probably has a couple fairly good builds. If you can get them to work well for you, you will have some bragging rights...

 

 

Good Luck Brother!

 

Warprat ;)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

they FAQ'd dark angel stormshields effectively giving them codex marines 3++

 

was in a tournament recently that had to allow it.

[Khavos]

Your source, please?

 

Codex SW, 2nd edition.

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Wolf_Brothers

 

Being disbanded due to genetic instability is quite different from all going berserk or dying during geneseed implantation due to not having the Canis Helix - especially given that they were a second founding chapter, and thus originally Space Wolves to begin with, just Space Wolves split off to form another chapter.