BAttle Vs Tau

[Jonas Stromclaw]

Well, I'm no blood angels player, but tau are one of my most common opponents, particularly at this 750pt level. The two things you have to worry about the most are fireknife armed crisis suits and his hammerheads. Now, being a jump pack crazy son of sanguinius, you'll have no problem running the XV8s to ground, but those hammerhead pieplates are nasty on expensive infantry (yeah I know they aren't AV3, but they kill just from sheer number of hits caused). My favorite trick is to droppod a nice cheap MM dread on the first turn, land it right behind his precious railhead (at 750pt he'll have one, two at most). With a little luck, you can kill it before it ever fires. Even if you don't manage to kill it you then have a unit in his deployment zone to distract him from shooting your army as it crosses the field. Just an old wolf's two cents.

 

Hence combat squading to give 5 RAS with 2 Melta's that kill a tank on the drop.

Understandable, but the dread can't scatter into something to roll on the mishap table. Plus, five marines just doesn't have the staying power or sheer psychological "oh crap there's a walking tank in my deployment zone" of a dreadnought. Admittedly the psychological part isn't much use against experienced players, but it can scare the crap out of a new player.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I've seen half a tau army fire at a 5 man combat squad with priest in cover and do scrap all for 2 turns. The idea with cobat squading is to drop the tanks and have enough targets that he cant kill them all. If you have 2 large assualt squads you're going to get those tanks but its not hard for a tau player to kill off a large squad.

 

If, say, 750 pts of Tau cannot down 5 2+ save Marines, either his dice or his army were terrible.

 

'Brother_Kluft'

 

Without being too trollish, you are not playing the Tau at all well. :D

 

Your experience versus John Smith does not make for a trend of Tau v BA. Congratulations to you for the win, but you cannot extrapolate one game to the whole.

 

Pathfinders have been the only way to bring Marker lights ever. If you are Podding, which means you generally turn up T1, then the Pathfinders don't get set-up waiting for you to crisp them.

AV 12 just begs for tl RG fire. Pens on 3s destroys on 4s and even destroys on a glance on a 6. Plus any immobilised result gets the deadly Dread away, unable to HF and assault the Tau.

Dreads are prey for Broadsides.

 

Tau don't kill by massed s5 fire. Fire Warriors are one of the worst TROOP choices in 5th ed. They cost too much for what they do, and die terribly. 4+ save is not just 16.7% less than 3+, but is open to many weapons ignoring it as well.

 

3 Crisis suits cost 180 pts. 6 shots. 3 hit. 3 dead SangGuard. That is 120 pts of BA gone. Would those 2 SG smash the Suits in close combat? YES! But then you get another squad firing at them too.

You never pit one unit of circa 200 pts versus another of 200 pts. You pit 400 versus 200 and get rid of that unit with one turns firing.

 

I don't fight equal units with my Templars, I also do not with my Tau. ;)

 

Clog and Move-block or Cram an' Jam

Your Rhinos don't just get to haul across the board. Piranhas rush out to move block you. AV 11 and flat-out save make them reasonably tough, even with being open-topped. Anyone that is not close to them is half as effective due to Disruption Pods. T2 is when the Pirnahas are within MELTA range and besides getting in the way of your tanks again [even if you have destroyed them], they have a good chance of popping them if you hadn't damaged them.

 

Kroot then clog you. You have to deal with them before you deal with the rest of the army. After you have carved them up, you then get shot up.

The whole army kills some BA T1. Then the BA assault the Kroot. The Kroot kill some more BA but die. Then the Tau open up on the BA units.

Vehicles have been delayed by Piranha Jam.

Your force does not hit as one big wave, but come in parts at a time.

 

Tau can deal with parts at a time.

 

I apologise if I seem rude or am being trollish, but the way you guys are relating how Tau are being played will result in you winning nearly everytime against them.

Just like whenever you play a poorly lead army.

 

For Tau knowledge, look at Yes The Truth Hurts, 3++ is the new black and Advanced Tau Tactica.

It's for your greater good :)

[Brother_Kluft]

@Marshal Wilhelm

 

I have read ATT since before it was called ATT (though I lurk, they are a tad to uptight there for my taste).

 

- I have beat, using Tau, double lash oblit spam armies played by some tough players

- One of my regular opponents was the best general of the last official canadian GT, came in top 10 ard'boys the year Darkwnns leafblower won

- I was 1-1-1 at ard boys semi finals this year

 

So, Im not a bad player, certainly not the best, but I will bring the pain. I hope my credentials are enough for you.

 

RE pathfinders : Please, if my Pod dread with Hvy flamers which is a total of 150 points can nuke your pathfinders AND take up some valuable railguns then hes doing well. Also you can hide a dread behind his pod such that the railguns generally cant see him.

 

And I hate to break it to you but Point for point railguns suck.

 

If I go first my rhinos will have 4+ save, if second 5+ save (shield of Sanguinus, which Tau cant do jack against cause they have no anti-psy)

 

With 4+ save, broadsides will do vs rhinos

 

3/4 hit x 5/6 pen x 1/2 cover save x 1/2 to destroy = 15.6% to destroy on pen

3/4 hit x 1/6 glance x 1/2 cover x 1/6 to destroy = 1.04%

Total = 16.64% to destroy

 

Say you have 9 broadsides (which didnt help my opponent too much by the way) thats 1.5 destroyed rhinos.

 

1.5 Rhinos will not cut it.

 

Mephiston can hide behind any vehicle, almost always being out of LOS and always in cover. He can reach anywhere on the board in two turns. Chances are your broadsides will be dead in two turns. (sure you can have a kroot wall, which mephi will carve through, and the CC will jam your LOS royally)

 

Your scenario of crisis suits vs SG is obviously optimal for the Crisis suits. Firstly, SG are cool looking but not awesome. You can get 10 RAS for the same price. Sure the suits will kill maybe 3 in a turn (however its easy to get cover for your RAS so really 1.5 per turn), but they will reach your Suits and crush them.

 

Unless you run a TON of piranha it will be hard to get the frontage you need to block effectively. One or 2 vehicles, sure, but more then that not likely. Oh and the piranhas give cover to the vehicles to your Railguns in the back.

 

I agree that Firewarriors suck hard, they are imho the worst basic toop in the game. However they are not even the source of the s5 ap5 shots (see devilfish, SMS, SMT

 

BA are faster then tau, tougher, better CC obviously, and strangely enough better at shooting. Lol the only thing that keeps tau in the game at all are disruption pods. (which with all the deepstriking stuff tau BA have isnt as effective as other armies)

 

Believe me, I love my little blue-dues, but they just cant cut it vs some of the new books.

[Emperors Immortals]

Wow, thankyou for the spirited discussion fellow astartes (and Xeno spies lol)

 

I have never fought Tau before, and ive never tried to run a 750pt game either, ive always stayed at 2000 or higher, so this has been a real struggle i must admit.

 

So far im looking at a full RAS with 2Meltas and a fist, Lib + priest as well as a podded 6 man DC (for line disruption) and podded Dread (dont know what type yet though im leaning to Furioso) with empty pod for cover and ensuring first turn drops.

 

Does that sound about righ tto the more experienced players here so far?

 

 

Lastly, great discussion, its really good to see an open discussion on fighting tau who seem to be a rather mysterious army.

[BrotherMoses]

Worst thing I've seen about Tau is cracking their transports. Its just tedious. Make use of cover, protect your priests, and take the fight swiftly to the enemy and the day will be yours.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

'Brother_Kluft'

You do sound like a solid player. What you said in your previous post did not indicate that, imo, but the internet makes my prejudiced view easier to assume things ;) :P

 

If your Dread is coming down because of Drop Pod Assault, the Pathfinders will not be on the TT. They'll be off the board or in their Piranha. One turn or two less with the Pathfinders is better than no Pathfinders :)

 

A Broadside with targeting array is 80 pts.

8/9 to hit

1/6 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

4/6 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[8 + 96]/324 or 32.1%

and 5/6 to glance/pen -> 1/6 to immobilise

40/324 or 12.4% An immobilised Dread is a sad thing. If it has a gun to fire it still contributes, but nothing like it can with its HF and assaulting.

that makes for 44.5% of stopping the Dread in its tracks. Nearly half of Rail gun shots will take out the Dread. That is amazing!

 

A MeltaSpeeder

4/6 to hit

3/36 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

30/36 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[12 + 360]/1296 or 28.7%

TAU 32.1% MARINE 28.7%

 

Even more fearsome than the dreaded 1/2 range melta.

 

8/9 to hit

1/6 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

5/6 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[8+120]/324 or 39.5%

But immobilise is just as good and will potentially slow your rush.

8/9 to hit -> 6/6 to glance/pen -> 1/6 to immobilise

8/54 or 14.8%

 

for a total of 54.3/2 [for SMOKE] = 27.2% ~ nearly as good as the Melta Speeder against AV 12. Nothing to dismiss out of hand, imo.

 

Mephiston can Jump+Run? That is 12+d6, or 13-18" per turn.

Minimum 24" apart

T1 Meph behind Rhino[4.5" long] J+R for 15.5". 28.5" - 15.5" = 13" away.

Meph WILL assault something if Tau have deployed their full 12" in.

But if you are going first, and avoiding Tau fire destro/immobe your Rhinos 54.3% with every Rail Gun shot, then you will not be 24" away from the Tau line.

If you deploy second, you get hit before you've moved and smoked/Shield of Sang.

If you deploy first, you wont be just 24" away.

 

Close combat doesn't affect TLOS anymore than any other model being on the table.

 

The Crisis Suits will be firing 6 s7 + 3 s6 shots at the Rhinos

1] AV 11 >24"

MT. 3/6 to hit.

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

2/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+18 = 21/216 or 9.72%

two shots;1 - [(195/216)^2] ~= .185, or 18.5%.

 

2] AV 11 between 12+ and 24"

MT. 3/6 to hit with Plasma Rifle

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

1/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+9 = 12/216 or 5.56%

3 shots;1 - ([(195/216)^2]*(204/216)) ~= .230, or 23.0%

 

3] AV 11 <12"

MT. 3/6 to hit with Plasma Rifle

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

1/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+9 = 12/216 or 5.56%

four shots; 1 - ([(195/216)^2]*[(204/216)^2]) ~= .273, or 27.3%

 

The RAS are a better deal. However, hopefully the Cram an' Jam will disrupt the incoming BA, and allow the Tau to pit 3 on 1.

 

The Piranhas do not need to block your entire army [though it would be nice :P ] All the have to do is Jam half of it. Then one half of your army wizzes by.

That half gets mauled by the majority of the Tau army. And the Kroot are in the way.

Next turn, your 1st half kills the Kroot and the 2nd half is free from the Piranhas.

The Tau mop up the 1st half. The 2nd half gets close.

The Tau maul the 2nd half

The 2nd half mashes some Tau

The remaining half Tau kill the remaining quarter BA :D

 

+++

 

If you don't like ATT, try Yes The Truth Hurts and 3++

[daboarder]

I've seen half a tau army fire at a 5 man combat squad with priest in cover and do scrap all for 2 turns. The idea with cobat squading is to drop the tanks and have enough targets that he cant kill them all. If you have 2 large assualt squads you're going to get those tanks but its not hard for a tau player to kill off a large squad.

 

If, say, 750 pts of Tau cannot down 5 2+ save Marines, either his dice or his army were terrible.

 

 

Oh yeah his dice were fine I was just rolling pretty high with a 3+ cover save from gone to ground and a 4+ FNP from the priest, as for the rest of my army, I won without ever getting into combat as my Libby ina big 10 man squad flew clockwise around the board using FoD to run his troops off the table over 3 turns.

[shan vener]

'Brother_Kluft'

You do sound like a solid player. What you said in your previous post did not indicate that, imo, but the internet makes my prejudiced view easier to assume things :) :P

 

If your Dread is coming down because of Drop Pod Assault, the Pathfinders will not be on the TT. They'll be off the board or in their Piranha. One turn or two less with the Pathfinders is better than no Pathfinders :P

 

A Broadside with targeting array is 80 pts.

8/9 to hit

1/6 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

4/6 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[8 + 96]/324 or 32.1%

and 5/6 to glance/pen -> 1/6 to immobilise

40/324 or 12.4% An immobilised Dread is a sad thing. If it has a gun to fire it still contributes, but nothing like it can with its HF and assaulting.

that makes for 44.5% of stopping the Dread in its tracks. Nearly half of Rail gun shots will take out the Dread. That is amazing!

 

A MeltaSpeeder

4/6 to hit

3/36 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

30/36 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[12 + 360]/1296 or 28.7%

TAU 32.1% MARINE 28.7%

 

Even more fearsome than the dreaded 1/2 range melta.

 

8/9 to hit

1/6 to glance -> 1/6 to destroy

5/6 to pen -> 3/6 to destroy

[8+120]/324 or 39.5%

But immobilise is just as good and will potentially slow your rush.

8/9 to hit -> 6/6 to glance/pen -> 1/6 to immobilise

8/54 or 14.8%

 

for a total of 54.3/2 [for SMOKE] = 27.2% ~ nearly as good as the Melta Speeder against AV 12. Nothing to dismiss out of hand, imo.

 

Mephiston can Jump+Run? That is 12+d6, or 13-18" per turn.

Minimum 24" apart

T1 Meph behind Rhino[4.5" long] J+R for 15.5". 28.5" - 15.5" = 13" away.

Meph WILL assault something if Tau have deployed their full 12" in.

But if you are going first, and avoiding Tau fire destro/immobe your Rhinos 54.3% with every Rail Gun shot, then you will not be 24" away from the Tau line.

If you deploy second, you get hit before you've moved and smoked/Shield of Sang.

If you deploy first, you wont be just 24" away.

 

Close combat doesn't affect TLOS anymore than any other model being on the table.

 

The Crisis Suits will be firing 6 s7 + 3 s6 shots at the Rhinos

1] AV 11 >24"

MT. 3/6 to hit.

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

2/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+18 = 21/216 or 9.72%

two shots;1 - [(195/216)^2] ~= .185, or 18.5%.

 

2] AV 11 between 12+ and 24"

MT. 3/6 to hit with Plasma Rifle

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

1/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+9 = 12/216 or 5.56%

3 shots;1 - ([(195/216)^2]*(204/216)) ~= .230, or 23.0%

 

3] AV 11 <12"

MT. 3/6 to hit with Plasma Rifle

1/6 to glance - 1/6 to immobilise+

1/6 to penetrate - 3/6 to immobilise+

3+9 = 12/216 or 5.56%

four shots; 1 - ([(195/216)^2]*[(204/216)^2]) ~= .273, or 27.3%

 

The RAS are a better deal. However, hopefully the Cram an' Jam will disrupt the incoming BA, and allow the Tau to pit 3 on 1.

 

The Piranhas do not need to block your entire army [though it would be nice :P ] All the have to do is Jam half of it. Then one half of your army wizzes by.

That half gets mauled by the majority of the Tau army. And the Kroot are in the way.

Next turn, your 1st half kills the Kroot and the 2nd half is free from the Piranhas.

The Tau mop up the 1st half. The 2nd half gets close.

The Tau maul the 2nd half

The 2nd half mashes some Tau

The remaining half Tau kill the remaining quarter BA :D

 

+++

 

If you don't like ATT, try Yes The Truth Hurts and 3++

 

too...much...math hammer :)

 

but honestly footslog DC + 10man assault squad + dante + lemartes + annihilation mission + any skill at all = final game score of 6:0 (it happened to)