Why do people always say use vindicators?

[Sternguard sergeant McColl]

All over this and many other boards I see people recommending vindicators to take down totally unfit targets. Look at it this way, if you're using a turn to shoot your windicator at a daemon prince, carnifex, mawloc, wraithlord, avatar, c'tan etc. You're wasting you time. It's only ONE wound max, that's praying you don't scatter, or fail to wound, or he passes his 4+invul. It's a horrible idea against TH/SS termies too. I'm just wondering if everyone's experience on the B&C with these one trick ponies is diffferent than mine? Usually I put it on the table (One or two) and they instantly get destroyed, immobilized, or weapon destroyed, which basically makes them useless against a smart opponent. Whats so shiny about them? sure you have a 100% chance to pen that speeder, or little less against a rhino or chimera, but it's only AP2, so you still destroy 1/3 of the time. What's the big deal, Brothers?

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

people tend to be wowed and amazed by the shock factor of the str10 large blast demolisher cannon. Thats probably why you see a lot of people advocating their use.

 

I dont see whats the big deal or the hype surrounding them is about, they are routinely destroyed without causing little more than a "look its a vindicator!" from spectators. they work great against new players however

[chapter master 454]

3 letters: B-F-G

I'm sure that answers your question. (oh and for anti-tank, why fire at a rhino? most people use it to clear out hordes or bust hard targets like land raiders)

[Jackelope King]

Yep. Vindicators aren't exactly good tanks. Your points are usually better spent elsewhere.

[Validar]

now people are being just as unconstructive as the OP says the opposition is.

 

Some people swear to the vindicator, some don't. It comes down to a matter of taste no matter how you put it.

 

The general thing about it, like with any other tank, is that it is based upon who you play against and what the rest of your army looks like.

If it is the wraithlord/avatar combo tearing you appart night after night, the vindicator may be sup-par for you - the las pred may be a better choice. But the land raider is pure nomom for the vindi and the las pred won't have much chance of tearing it to pieces.

 

If your army lacks something that can take out hordes, elite infantry and/or heavy tanks then the vindicator will work wonders, if it doesn't then find something else or change your list to fit it.

 

The short version being: It depends on the rest of your list wether a vindicator will be a good choice or not.

 

 

on a small sidenote I play a list with two vindicators myself :lol:

[KhorneHunter57x]

I use one in my Black Templars, but I use it more because it has a reputation. The rest of my list includes 2 Land Raider Crusaders full of Templars, and so my opponent is forced to choose between targeting one of my Crusaders and my Vindicator. I couldn't care less if it gets destroyed, as it's only real reason for being in my army is to take the heat off of my Crusaders and their cargo. Anything that it happens to kill is a bonus.

 

The Vindicator tends to be one of our only good anti-AV 14 weapons, and it is the only one that does not require getting within Melta range or close combat. This, combined with the 5" blast that gives it a bit more versatility, is why people take it. That, and it is one of the cheaper tanks.

[Vaktathi]

Demolisher cannons are powerful weapons capable of working in multiple roles. S10 roll 2d6 pick highest for armor pen makes for a good Anti Tank shot. 5" Blast S10 AP2 works great against infantry of all types.

 

The Vindicator a flexible platform that most things aren't going to enjoy being hit by.

 

However, it's range is rather limited, you need to be somewhat close to fire that big gun. This means the enemy has an easier time striking back. Additionally, the Vindicator doesn't have the greatest armor in the world, not bad, but not great either. It's short range means that it's flanks will often be vulnerable. Another issue is that a single Weapon Destroyed result destroys the utility of the vehicle other than basically as a moving box (which does have its uses).

 

Some people love them, they have huge scary guns and that counts for a lot. However, in the greater metagame, they aren't the only units with such firepower, and most other units in opposing armies do it better. For Space Marines, they are a rare heavy hitting piece of firepower that isn't widely available, but many players over-rely on them, or try to use them against foes that either don't care or can do it better (such as IG).

 

 

The Vindicator has its uses, it offers something very rare for Space Marine armies, but in all honesty, is really an anti-Marine weapon above all else. Against many other armies the Vindicator is rather mediocre, for instance, against Eldar it's rather overkill against every infantry unit they have except for Wraithguard, and isn't as useful for AT due to Holofields and Energy Fields.

 

So if you are playing against lots and lots of Marines or Necrons, Vindicators will be great units. If you are facing Imperial Guard and Eldar a lot, you probably won't like them very much.

[Br.Pat]

If you play a vindicator on its own it will attract too much fire and get destroyed fairly quickly. However, vindicators start to shine when either used in 2s or 3s... or alternatively when the enemy is faced with a potentially scarier target, like for example a Land Raider Crusader filled with Assault Terminators.

 

As Vaktathi said, it's decent. It's not incredible but it gets the job done. The vindicator has a high strength weapon that can be useful against a number of targets. However it's range isn't too great and I believe it's best used in an offensive style army.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I advocate against Vindis in most cases because they are entirely too easy to neutralize. They carry one very scary gun, but once it's been Weapon Destroyed, you just pull the tank's teeth and now you have the aforementioned moving box. If I bring armor, I want something that can lose a weapon and still be effective, like a tri-las Pred or Land Raider.

[Grey Mage]

They say to use them because S 10, Large Blast, and AP 2 is the most powerful weapon all around, bar none, in the entire game.

 

Not always the right one, not always the best one for the job, but always god-awfully strong because it has the best stats available.

[DarkGuard]

The utility in Vindicators don't just lie in their guns, but also their reputation. Whether it misses or not your opponent does not want one (or two or three) vehicles with a S10 AP2 big template, because if it does hit then something will die. Therefore, they make an excellent unit to accompany Rhinos, as your opponent will divert more firepower towards the Vindicator, allowing your other units to get into position.

 

Also, with a bit of luck and skill, their weapons can be devastating. In recent games, they have more or less won me the games. First by diverting fire, and then in one game they wiped out a unit of pathfinders that made a break for an objective. In another game they wiped out an entire unit in one turn after I cracked open their Land Raider.

 

Yes they have limits, but they also have some fantastic uses that isn't always about the application of their destructive firepower.

[Chengar Qordath]

One other thing Vindicators are good at which had not come up yet is that they can make an excellent counter to a lot of the common "Deathstar" units like Nob Bikers and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Infantry units that heavily rely on toughness and wounds for a lot of their extra protection do not like getting hit with a massive pieplate of instant death with no armor saves or Feel no Pain.

[Vaktathi]

They say to use them because S 10, Large Blast, and AP 2 is the most powerful weapon all around, bar none, in the entire game.

 

His Majesties Most Glorious Imperial Guard would beg to differ.

[JamesI]

In my experience, if you want your vindicator to be more than a distraction, you need 2 of them. 1 will die early, with 2 one usually survives.

[KhorneHunter57x]

A second Vindicator, or, as Br.Pat and I have said, another big nasty unit in your force that will scare your opponent more.

 

 

They say to use them because S 10, Large Blast, and AP 2 is the most powerful weapon all around, bar none, in the entire game.

His Majesties Most Glorious Imperial Guard would beg to differ.

As would the Adeptus Mechanicus Collegia Titanica. :(

[Grey Mage]

A second Vindicator, or, as Br.Pat and I have said, another big nasty unit in your force that will scare your opponent more.

 

 

They say to use them because S 10, Large Blast, and AP 2 is the most powerful weapon all around, bar none, in the entire game.

His Majesties Most Glorious Imperial Guard would beg to differ.

As would the Adeptus Mechanicus Collegia Titanica. :)

Hey, that is a different game entirely.

[Zynk Kaladin]

They use the demolisher cannon because they are compensating for the lack of "weaponry" under the belt :)

 

Other than the threat factor, vindis are great for camping home objectives and with a little tactical positioning they can last a long time. For an assault tank, it's generally better to keep them on home turf. Three vindis on home turf says "NO!" to alpha strikes.

[spartan249]

Vindicators are mis-labeled by GW as offensive tanks. They simply are not offensive in nature. These tanks perform best as a defensive weapon, covering an objective or providing flank support for the main firebase. Using the vindicator in any other way is asking for the tank to be blown up early because it has no other redeeming qualities.

[rat of vengence]

My Vindicator spearheads my assault, or is the STAY AWAY unit in my defense. AV13 is good, and takes some effort to reliably neutralise. The demolisher cannon is the best way of saying 'bugger off' to an opponent. As the OP pointed out, it is wasted putting one wound on an MC for example, but if his opponents are doing that they don't know how to use it properly :)

 

I run just the one.

 

RoV

[greatcrusade08]

vindies are awesome against marine armies.. they have the ability to neuter a 10 man squad with ease and can down tanks just as well..

 

As suggested its down to the usage, for thier points vindies are great value.. but ultimately they must fit thier list.. they are NOT an instant win button

[Ookami_81]

Indeed I find them offensive. They can ignore terrain if properly kitted, go forward and shoot, and because of their short range the defensive area denial is not that good IMHO.

I usually find them effective with mobile armies (using assault marines, bikes, or even rhinos). Their firemagnet power is extremely usefull to protect other units, they can cover advancing rhinos, assault marines, even landspeeders, while still firing sometimes.

You think they are not good if you want a pretty über killy unit, a unit that can win you games without thinking. They are not, so you'll be disappointed. But I fail to know a single unit in a single codex that is in its own standalone goodness a game winning unit, and I'm very happy of that.

As with 100% of the units, vindis are good, or not, in a context, in a list, in a tactic, against some foes.

Battling more than often against the Orks, I like the AV13, the big template, and I don't hope they'll survive either a death kopter sneaking from behind or an assault phase (hence the synergy with assault marines).

Their best quality is to draw lots of enemy fire from anything else during one or two turns, while my bikes / lanspeeders do the real job.

 

Indeed I find them offensive. They can ignore terrain if properly kitted, go forward and shoot, and because of their short range the defensive area denial is not that good IMHO.

I usually find them effective with mobile armies (using assault marines, bikes, or even rhinos). Their firemagnet power is extremely usefull to protect other units, they can cover advancing rhinos, assault marines, even landspeeders, while still firing sometimes.

You think they are not good if you want a pretty über killy unit, a unit that can win you games without thinking. They are not, so you'll be disappointed. But I fail to know a single unit in a single codex that is in its own standalone goodness a game winning unit, and I'm very happy of that.

As with 100% of the units, vindis are good, or not, in a context, in a list, in a tactic, against some foes.

Battling more than often against the Orks, I like the AV13, the big template, and I don't hope they'll survive either a death kopter sneaking from behind or an assault phase (hence the synergy with assault marines).

Their best quality is to draw lots of enemy fire from anything else during one or two turns, while my bikes / lanspeeders do the real job.

[Koremu]

The Vindicator is renowned for its ability to hurt anything. Anything at all. Yes, there may be better ways of killing a specific target (and MCs with T6+ or EW are the worst thing for a Vindicator to fire at), but regardless of what the target is, the Vindicator can have a go at it.

 

That tends to make Vindicators prime targets, at which point you need to acknowledge and plan for that fact. You can either go for the double-up (taking more than one Vindicator into the fight), or you can partner your vindicator with equally threatening targets, or else you can try to hold your Vindicator back as bait and take the enemy AT out as it tries to close or manoeuvre to kill the Vindicator.

 

But really, the reason we take Vindicators is the same as the reason Typhoon Speeders, MM/HF Speeders, Assault Termis and Sternguard are so well regarded. They contain a brutally effective degree of wide-spectrum killing power.

[mowglie]

All over this and many other boards I see people recommending vindicators to take down totally unfit targets. Look at it this way, if you're using a turn to shoot your windicator at a daemon prince, carnifex, mawloc, wraithlord, avatar, c'tan etc. You're wasting you time. It's only ONE wound max, that's praying you don't scatter, or fail to wound, or he passes his 4+invul. It's a horrible idea against TH/SS termies too. I'm just wondering if everyone's experience on the B&C with these one trick ponies is diffferent than mine? Usually I put it on the table (One or two) and they instantly get destroyed, immobilized, or weapon destroyed, which basically makes them useless against a smart opponent. Whats so shiny about them? sure you have a 100% chance to pen that speeder, or little less against a rhino or chimera, but it's only AP2, so you still destroy 1/3 of the time. What's the big deal, Brothers?

 

Who on earth is recommending that you use a Vindicator to attack a DP/Mawloc/etc. You seem to have cherry-picked the only units in the game (multiwound T6+/EW) that the Vindicator isn't very good against!

 

There are much better targets in those armies. It'll make short work of Plaguemarines and Tyranid Warriors. Don't waste it on the DP/MC!

 

The Vindicator is renowned for its ability to hurt anything. Anything at all. Yes, there may be better ways of killing a specific target (and MCs with T6+ or EW are the worst thing for a Vindicator to fire at), but regardless of what the target is, the Vindicator can have a go at it.

 

That tends to make Vindicators prime targets, at which point you need to acknowledge and plan for that fact. You can either go for the double-up (taking more than one Vindicator into the fight), or you can partner your vindicator with equally threatening targets, or else you can try to hold your Vindicator back as bait and take the enemy AT out as it tries to close or manoeuvre to kill the Vindicator.

 

But really, the reason we take Vindicators is the same as the reason Typhoon Speeders, MM/HF Speeders, Assault Termis and Sternguard are so well regarded. They contain a brutally effective degree of wide-spectrum killing power.

 

This.

 

If your opponent is prioritising your Vindicator and destroying it, the rest of your army is less threatening to him. It doesn't mean the Vindicator is bad. It means the rest of your army isn't as good!

 

Also, yeah. If you take one and zoom it right up the centre of the board, don't expect it to do very well.

 

Try popping an objective in the open somewhere two obscured vindicators can get LoS to it. See if you're convinced after that.

[DerekLee688]

115pts. That's it. How many units do we have that can exterminate FNP MEQ for 115pts?

 

It's cheap, powerful, and semi-durable. Just put Land raiders and dreads on either side of one or two vidi's and you have a real armored spearhead. 6" move and 24" shot is plenty range on a regular board.

 

For every one target you name that a vindi isn't useful against I can name ten that it IS useful against.

[Ming]

Also have to think...compared to what? Is a 105 point vindie better than 5 devs with one missile launcher or multimelta for the same price? Are two vindies better than 10 devs with 4 heavy weapons? When you compare them to the other alternatives for the near-same purpose, they are efficient points-wise.

 

The hidden cheese in the C:SM heavies slot in terms of firepower are the clear alternatives to a 5-man dev squad packing 4 MLs (150 points before any further upgrades):

 

1. Autopred with LC sponsons (<150), 4 dice of weaponry bracketing 4 MLs in power (7s and 9s vs 4 8s)

2. Thunderfire 100 points for 4 missiles that are better hordekillers (up to S6 vs S4, different blast modes, etc., longer range), and includes a free techmarine close-combat monster, who can bolster terrain.

3. Vindie (105), S10 AP2 blast, throw in a attack bike or basic speeder to make the points equal, short range

4. Whirlwind, S4 and S5 missile variants (85), throw in a second for almost the same points, same range, indirect.

 

Everything boils down to personal taste and selecting a force to meet the local challenges.