Why do people always say use vindicators?

[chaplain belisarius]

@ the OP-have you been talking to me?

 

I love vindicators...i always take 2...:)

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Everything boils down to personal taste and selecting a force to meet the local challenges.

+1

for my self, before i left the game, just after the Eye of Terror... i used to use 2 vindi.. but i would bring them in as reverses for my gun line. My .02, is to take your 2 weapon upgrade options, for layers of protection for your BFG. (SB+HKM)

[Ryjak]

All over this and many other boards I see people recommending vindicators to take down totally unfit targets. Look at it this way, if you're using a turn to shoot your windicator at a daemon prince, carnifex, mawloc, wraithlord, avatar, c'tan etc. You're wasting you time. It's only ONE wound max, that's praying you don't scatter, or fail to wound, or he passes his 4+invul. It's a horrible idea against TH/SS termies too. I'm just wondering if everyone's experience on the B&C with these one trick ponies is diffferent than mine? Usually I put it on the table (One or two) and they instantly get destroyed, immobilized, or weapon destroyed, which basically makes them useless against a smart opponent. Whats so shiny about them? sure you have a 100% chance to pen that speeder, or little less against a rhino or chimera, but it's only AP2, so you still destroy 1/3 of the time. What's the big deal, Brothers?

 

Just to remind everyone of the original post. First, I don't know anyone who's advocating you fire the Demolisher Cannon at Monstrous Creatures or HQs with Eternal Warrior. You will find plenty of advice to fire at masses of infantry in the open or physically large vehicles. I'll take an almost guaranteed 1/3 chance to destroy a Land Raider or Monolith any day. The odds of missing or failing to Penetrate these vehicles is very low. Tight groups of Light Vehicles and Infantry in Cover are secondary targets.

 

As someone that has used two Vindicators in my army for years, I generally advise that you AVOID them. I feel an army has to be built around Vindicators, instead of adding them to an existing army. Ok, if you're running any kind of gun-line, earth army, it's fairly easy to incorporate a Vindicator (or two). Plunk it in or near terrain next to a large, open area, and you just denied a good chunk of the board. In this case, the Vindicator is acting as a Shield, and should only be getting hit against that front AV13 while in cover. If you run them this way, take either the Dozer Blade or Siege Shield, and actually consider the Hunter-Killer Missile. It's funny how often you can shoot from one side of the board to the other when you set up as a flank shield, and hit a transport in the side.

 

Otherwise, your only viable option is to run 2-3 Vindicators along with a few Rhinos, Razorbacks, and/or Land Raiders in a Fire-style army. In this case, thier main job is to provide cover to the other vehicles; firing that Demolisher Cannon is completely secondary. In fact, if you manage to even fire it, you should be happy, as it's very likely you'll suffer a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilization, which effectively kills a Vindicator most of the time. And in the few instances you do get to fire, you'll likely be taken out the following turn, as your opponent flanks you and blasts your weak side armor, or simply assaults you.

 

However, since this Vindicator's job is mobile cover, loosing your cannon isn't a major loss. In fact, the pintel storm bolter is a good upgrade in this roll. A cannon-less, immobilized Vindicator putting out 4 bolter shots at 24" can do some damage over the course of a few turns, especially since your opponent should have much bigger problems to deal with at that point. Two such Vindicators are still a tangible threat.

[Vaktathi]

I'll take an almost guaranteed 1/3 chance to destroy a Land Raider or Monolith any day. The odds of missing or failing to Penetrate these vehicles is very low.

With BS4 scatter reduction, say 2" deviation will still get you a hit (about what it is on most vehicles) gives you about a 61% chance to hit with the hole centered over most vehicles, and against AV14, you have about a 55% chance of penetrating, and then a 1/3 chance of destroying, so about a 1/9 (1/8.76 but I rounded :() chance to destroy an AV14 vehicle. Definitely not a 1/3 chance to destroy, but about thrice that of a BS4 lascanon for instance (1/27).

[Nougat]

The OP listed pretty much all the bad targets for Vindicators, aka T6+ multiwound single models, or models with good invulnerable saves. Of course Vindicators are no good for killing those units. But they're great against any heavy infantry target or AV 13-14 vehicles, and they're cheap enough not to be wasted firing at basically any decent size unit of infantry. 24" range isn't THAT short on a normally sized board.

[Ryjak]

I'll take an almost guaranteed 1/3 chance to destroy a Land Raider or Monolith any day. The odds of missing or failing to Penetrate these vehicles is very low.

With BS4 scatter reduction, say 2" deviation will still get you a hit (about what it is on most vehicles) gives you about a 61% chance to hit with the hole centered over most vehicles, and against AV14, you have about a 55% chance of penetrating, and then a 1/3 chance of destroying, so about a 1/9 (1/8.76 but I rounded <_<) chance to destroy an AV14 vehicle. Definitely not a 1/3 chance to destroy, but about thrice that of a BS4 lascanon for instance (1/27).

So it's about half as effective as a close-range Multi-melta. And against BIG targets (like a Land Raider) where a 3-4" deviation can still equal a hit, it looks a bit better. If only it were AP1, like it should be...

 

At least this illustrates why you should Infantry with this weapon.

[Ookami_81]

So it's about half as effective as a close-range Multi-melta. And against BIG targets (like a Land Raider) where a 3-4" deviation can still equal a hit, it looks a bit better. If only it were AP1, like it should be...

 

At least this illustrates why you should Infantry with this weapon.

 

Indeed, I always found that the main interest of the demolisher wasn't the S of the gun, but the big pie plate template.

 

Vindis shine to kill T5 and less heavy infantry, exceptionnally multi-wounds models.

 

To me it seems it was created not to crack open tanks, like some want to use it because of the high S, not to shine in city fights like the fluff says and the model shows (it reminds me of a mobile heavy howitzer/mortar like the germans used in WW2), but to kill big guys.

 

Maybe Vindis shine because of the "Nob biker" impact, in fact mine are included in some of my lists just for this task: kill annoying and very dangerous in CC nobz (Thank the Emperor my usual opponents don't put them on bikes).

 

Regarding the AP, I don't want to appear as a traitor, but AP 2 is not uderrated, it's overrated ! If you want to give a little sense to the demolisher gun, you can't have a low velocity (short barreled cannon) big bore ammunition that is both armour piercing (high S, low AP)and big blast radius with conventionnal means (that is if you don't use plasma or nuclear thingy as payload, wich is unrelevant with such a short ranged piece of artillery).

As with the missile launcher, these should have two firing modes: a HE one, like the whirlies, say S5/6 AP5/4 big pie plate, and a shaped charge one, say S10 AP1 with 2 dices for rolling the damage chart, but without blast template.

Oh and looking at the model the AV levels are wrong. They should be 13/12/10 or even 13/13/10. Clearly the Vindi is a lot more side armoured than a Rhino or a Pred !

This way, the Vindi would look like and be like they are told to be in fluff: bunker busters, mobile howitzer for city fights, combined with a superb short range tank killer... And a true tank, at last, for space marines, that is to say a multi-purpose armoured MOBILE platform to be used in front of the army.

(Sorry for the rant I'm somewhat fed up with the "WWI mentality" of the space marines and 40K in general concerning tanks. IMHO a tank is made to move. Sad to see the things that are the most tank-like (in their use) in the space marine armoury are MM assault bikes and speeders ! )

[mowglie]

At least this illustrates why you should Infantry with this weapon.

 

Indeed, I always found that the main interest of the demolisher wasn't the S of the gun, but the big pie plate template.

 

That's not quite true. Just because it's not as good as a close-range Melta weapon doesn't mean it's bad against armor. Just not quite as good as it is against heavy infantry. A Tri-las predator is only slightly better vs AV13 (about 15% vs 18% chance to wreck off the top of my head), despite being much more expensive, much more specialised, and much less mobile. I suspect the vindicator might be better than the tri-las Pred vs AV14.

 

(although obviously you don't see many people playing tri-las preds)

 

The Vindicator is good vs almost everything, and that makes it my go-to for my HS slots for all-comers lists. Just like Typhoon Speeders and Sternguard.

 

As people are saying, though, it depends on your local meta. If you've got nothing but Mech C:SM, Nidzilla, Dark Eldar, and Orks-in-Trukks you're obviously better off with Dakka- or Combi-preds.

[Ookami_81]

Indeed, I always found that the main interest of the demolisher wasn't the S of the gun, but the big pie plate template.

That's not quite true

Well I said main interest, not the only one. :P TBH, I love Vindis and they are close to what looks like a real tank in the SM armoury. That is, you compare it with the trilas pred. Well this thing called predator annihilator, even without taking into account the point cost problem, is simply not a tank. You lose more than half its firepower for the capital sin of daring make it moving ! A trilas pred is a somewhat mobile artillery bunker, and a weak bunker with that !

The best thing I ever did with two Vindis was to shoot and destroy a battlewagon with one, and with the other wiping off the board the surviving nobz emerging from the smoldering remnants of the orky thing. So it's an AT kill and an AP one. (Good luck in doing that with a pair of trilas preds).

Vindies rocks, I just tried to reply to the OP in giving my experience of their use.

As I said earlier, the problem is not that the Vindicator is not an effiscient tank in AT, it's more general: SM tanks suck at being tanks. Preds are not mobile, Vindies are too short ranged, and land raiders are too expensive because they are a .... thing... that has nothing to do with being a MBT, kind of a monstruous IFV.

I'll create a topic in amicus aedes to explain what a true tank should be in W40K.

[Koremu]

We're Space Marines, all our AT comes on Fast platforms.

 

Oh, and technically the Vindicator isn't a Tank, it's an Assault Gun.

 

I agree about the Predator though. It needs the option to take PotMS for +30 points, then it would be a worthwhile vehicle rather than a stationary fire platform.

[Brother Nihm]

Why do people always say use vindicators?

The feeling you have after vaporizing an entire infantry/bike unit with one hit, fun fun.

[ShinyRhino]

I've never had a Vindicator work well for me, but that's because I always fielded one solo (I only own one) and without supporting units. I always lost my Demolisher cannon early, and from then on it was just a big ram to crash into smaller vehicles with.

 

I know that I hate seeing one ACROSS the table from me, though. 24" is actually a very respectable range band, especially in an objective scenario. You can, in theory, park it near the middle of the board and threaten 2/3 of the table.

My bikers hate Vindicators, because it vaporizes them in the open. This forces me to do a lot of turbo-boosting, which precludes my own firing of heavy and special weapons. I can turbo forward to get the Vindi lined up for a melta shot or a powerfist-toting charge, but when properly screened with tactical or assault squads, I don't have much luck getting to grips with the Vindicator.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

We're Space Marines, all our AT comes on Fast platforms.

 

Oh, and technically the Vindicator isn't a Tank, it's an Assault Gun.

 

I agree about the Predator though. It needs the option to take PotMS for +30 points, then it would be a worthwhile vehicle rather than a stationary fire platform.

 

True.

 

Trilas Pred? I look at it this way: the turreted lascannons are what make it a main battle tank. The sponsons are there for insurance should enemy fire pop off the main gun. Game-mechanically, it makes sense to sit still and fire all three, but I play aggressively and like my real-world military training tells me to: move fast, close with the enemy, and destroy him, so I actually *move* my Predator.

[Ookami_81]

Usually it is said that two configs are good for preds:

- dakka pred as static infantry killer

- combipred as static light transport / MC killer.

The others are just too weak (naked pred), too expensive for the use (TLLC pred), or just too expensive (trilas preds).

 

As a moving and shooting tank, is the TLLC pred without sponsons a good one ? (well not an excellent one, but is it that rubbish ?)

Lack of sponsons gives it a more real tank look, and it's less expensive so you can have more points to invest elsewhere.

 

I envision an army with bikes, lanspeeder typhoons, mobile infantry in rhinos and tanks. Usually I use Vindics, but well, they are not tanks. :wacko:

[mowglie]

Trilas Pred? I look at it this way: the turreted lascannons are what make it a main battle tank. The sponsons are there for insurance should enemy fire pop off the main gun. Game-mechanically, it makes sense to sit still and fire all three, but I play aggressively and like my real-world military training tells me to: move fast, close with the enemy, and destroy him, so I actually *move* my Predator.

 

What are you saying here?

 

"I deliberately play my tri-las preds in a way which I know is less likely to make me win because that's the way I enjoy playing"

 

or

 

"I think playing tri-las preds with the intention of moving them aggressively is more likely to make me win"

 

I can't think of a single target that I'd rather fire a single TLLC against than a Demolisher Cannon. On top of that, the Vindicator is significantly cheaper. If you plan on rolling forwards aggressively, the Vindicator is undoubtedly a better mechanical choice than the annihilator - but even that is the wrong way to play a Vindicator.

[Ookami_81]

If you plan on rolling forwards aggressively, the Vindicator is undoubtedly a better mechanical choice than the annihilator - but even that is the wrong way to play a Vindicator.

 

Well usually I'm doing that with either bikes or ASM as close mutual support (and mutual cover for bikes ;) ), and I protect the whole lot against AT threats either with Typhoons in the back or killing the tanks with suicidal melta bikers before being shot down... usually both methods are employed.

 

How do you use your Vindicators ? Defensively as an area denial monster hidden in cover ?

[DerekLee688]

I've suspended the use of my single vindi untill I get another, but I had been using it between a Dread and a land raider filled with a full tac squad with flamer/PF + librarian with avenger to take objectives. Typhoons and a rhino filled with sternguard intercepted anything that tried to flank or melee it. The only time I couldn't protect it is when I entered range of necrons to fire the cannon, but the land raiders are just as screwed in that situation(as I have found out).

[Koremu]

What's wrong with playing Vindicators aggressively again? I play mine forward all the time, as part of my overall plan to close with the enemy.

[Koremu]

We're Space Marines, all our AT comes on Fast platforms.

 

Oh, and technically the Vindicator isn't a Tank, it's an Assault Gun.

 

I agree about the Predator though. It needs the option to take PotMS for +30 points, then it would be a worthwhile vehicle rather than a stationary fire platform.

 

True.

 

Trilas Pred? I look at it this way: the turreted lascannons are what make it a main battle tank. The sponsons are there for insurance should enemy fire pop off the main gun. Game-mechanically, it makes sense to sit still and fire all three, but I play aggressively and like my real-world military training tells me to: move fast, close with the enemy, and destroy him, so I actually *move* my Predator.

I understand the point you are making, and I wish it made sense to use Predators like that. If they had PotMS, then it would be viable.

 

As it stands though, the Predator has a dreadful set of rules that make its mobile firepower less than an IG Leman Russ. Effectively, the Predator is a semi-mobile emplacement on the tabletop because that's just how its rules force it to work.

 

If you want to move fast, close with the enemy and destroy them up close, you want a Land Speeder.

[Ookami_81]

If you want to move fast, close with the enemy and destroy them up close, you want a Land Speeder.

 

That. Exactly.

 

And what if you want a mobile resilient vehicle to kill things from a distance while being able to reposition to use at best its firepower ?

 

That would be a more versatile upgraded predator or a tougher typhoon slightly upgunned, or a Vindicator with twice the range, even with less firepower. A "thing" as hard as a pred or a little more, with a combo between a "long barreled multimelta" and a blast anti-infantry weapon like a shorter ranged Whirlie, and at least the mobility of a Vindicator. Something that doesn't exist in C:SM and even in W40K. :)

[Koremu]

If you want to move fast, close with the enemy and destroy them up close, you want a Land Speeder.

 

That. Exactly.

 

And what if you want a mobile resilient vehicle to kill things from a distance while being able to reposition to use at best its firepower ?

Rifleman Dreadnought.

[Ookami_81]

Rifleman Dreadnought.

 

Genius indeed, Koremu ! It's not what I imagined (I see the thing as versatile but better everywhere, more expensive, and on tracks with a turret ^_^ ), but I have to admit the rifleman answers perfectly.

 

I hesitated between him and Typhoons as firebase, and I finally took Typhoons, sacrificing toughness to mobility, firepower AND more versatility. Typhoons are better AT killers, better anti-horde, better against MCs, better against MeQ, much more mobile, but they are made of paper... :D

 

The only two things the Rifleman has better than a Typhoon is anti-APC, and toughness.

It has also limited CC capability, but I see it as a moot point: if you're in CC with a rifleman backyard shooter, you're in trouble, and with a speeder 3/4 of the time you can avoid the threat by superior mobility, and stuff it with missile and HB love.

[mowglie]

How do you use your Vindicators ? Defensively as an area denial monster hidden in cover ?

 

*whispers* Actually, I roll them forward at the front of my spearhead, because it's far more fun that way - even when they get destroyed. Shh! Don't tell anyone!

 

Also, I always feel bad bringing them to friendly games, so I'm deliberately reckless with them to compensate - and the habit sticks in competitive games.

 

Yes. It's definitely most effective as area denial from cover. Like I said. In the objectives mission, pop an objective in the open where you can get LoS to it with two obscured Vindicators. That's their #1 best use.

 

What's wrong with playing Vindicators aggressively again? I play mine forward all the time, as part of my overall plan to close with the enemy.

 

I was probably being a bit harsh. I should have said "not the best way" rather than "not the right way". They are much much better if you can keep them obscured. Smoke stops you shooting and makes me sad, and they aren't particularly resilient if you close fast. If your opponent's fast melta gets to it before it gets a shot off... sad times. That's what happens if you deploy it at the front of your zone and move it 6" forward (18" total) in your first turn. I hold it back and try to deal with fast melta with my Typhoons. Its 30" reach is very respectable, even from the middle of your deployment zone.

 

That said, it does absoloutely depend on what the rest of your army is doing. 115 points for a must-kill target shielding your Rhinos is hardly a bad deal. Woe betide the enemy who ignores it (or particularly the enemy who lacks the resources to deal with it from the front - horde Ork I'm looking at you!).

 

 

Rifleman Dreadnought.

 

I prefer the Typhoon myself for the same role (assuming I have to choose!), but yes it's made of paper. Really thin paper...

[Koremu]

Yeah, the question specified "resilient", otherwise I'd have said Typhoon.

 

But the Typhoon is bacofail deluxe for armour.

 

 

 

Essentially the Rifleman is better than the Predator because it can function with Mobility and high Firepower, it doesn't have to sacrifice one to obtain the other.

 

Twin-Linking also ensures it has good accuracy.

 

Yet again; Predator sucks and needs PotMS to be able to compete as a part of the Space Marine armoury.

[DerekLee688]

Riflemen move the same speed as vindi's when it comes to firing weapons, and are prime canadates to open the transports to let the vindi's get to the gooey filling, or more apropriatly turn the contents into goo. I like to think of Rifleman dreads as the perfect bookends for two volumes of pain!