Why do people always say use vindicators?

[spartan249]

This is another area where I think BAs have the advantage on SMs: BAs have the mobile predators and vindicators for a very modest price hike. For only 10 points more than the rifleman, you get the autocannon and 2 lascannons with AV 13 on the front of a fast vehicle.

 

PotMS be damned... fast predators/vindicators are what I like.

[Vaktathi]

As it stands though, the Predator has a dreadful set of rules that make its mobile firepower less than an IG Leman Russ. Effectively, the Predator is a semi-mobile emplacement on the tabletop because that's just how its rules force it to work.

The Predator has never been about throwing out raw firepower, especially more than a Leman Russ. It's not designed to compete with that kind of thing. It's a specialist tank designed to cover a gap in capability elsewhere, either for muppet mowing or tank hunting, that the rest of the force lacks.

 

Now, granted, under 4E it could be used as a somewhat generalist tank with TL lascannon turret and Heavy Bolter sponsons as a decent mobile fire platform, but it wasn't cheap and non-skimmer tanks in general sucked hard.

[Koremu]

As it stands though, the Predator has a dreadful set of rules that make its mobile firepower less than an IG Leman Russ. Effectively, the Predator is a semi-mobile emplacement on the tabletop because that's just how its rules force it to work.

The Predator has never been about throwing out raw firepower, especially more than a Leman Russ. It's not designed to compete with that kind of thing. It's a specialist tank designed to cover a gap in capability elsewhere, either for muppet mowing or tank hunting, that the rest of the force lacks.

 

Now, granted, under 4E it could be used as a somewhat generalist tank with TL lascannon turret and Heavy Bolter sponsons as a decent mobile fire platform, but it wasn't cheap and non-skimmer tanks in general sucked hard.

You are missing my point. It's not that the Leman Russ has more raw firepower than the Predator that annoys me, it's that the Leman Russ has a greater portion of its total firepower available to it while it remains mobile. This is a tank which has a special rule called Lumbering Behemoth, having a better mobility vs. firepower trade off than a tank which, according to all the fluff, is employed as a mobile fire support platform.

 

Explain to me how that works?

 

If you look at the currently recommended crop of Predator loadouts - Dakka, Combi and Tri-Las - they are all 'sit at the back and shoot' machines that bear no relevance to how the Predator is supposed to be deployed under the Codex Astartes. That, in my book, makes it a broken rule.

 

The only reason that the Predator retains a role in the order of battle at all is that its competition in the 'sit at the back and shoot' stakes from Heavy Support are Devastators, which are hideously overpriced. If Devastators were sensibly priced, Preds would be obsolete. As it is, if you have Dreadnoughts or Typhoons they are obsolete unless you are really stuck for Elites or FA.

 

Which brings me back around to the original question; The other reason why Vindicators are the Heavy Support of choice is that Devastators are too expensive, Predators are rubbish, Whirlwinds & Thunderfire are too target-specific, and Land Raiders are available as Dedicated Transports, so you rarely need all three HS slots for them.

 

Thanks to the shoddy job that was done on our HS section, the Vindicator shines - because everything else is rubbish.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

This is another area where I think BAs have the advantage on SMs: BAs have the mobile predators and vindicators for a very modest price hike. For only 10 points more than the rifleman, you get the autocannon and 2 lascannons with AV 13 on the front of a fast vehicle.

 

PotMS be damned... fast predators/vindicators are what I like.

 

Very true. Sadly, I'm on the verge of ditching C:SM as the stinky pile of trash it is and using C:BA for random games. The only things the standard codex really has going for it are Biker Troops and the Special Characters, and I'm not that enthused by SCs in general.

[mowglie]

Riflemen move the same speed as vindi's when it comes to firing weapons, and are prime canadates to open the transports to let the vindi's get to the gooey filling, or more apropriatly turn the contents into goo. I like to think of Rifleman dreads as the perfect bookends for two volumes of pain!

 

Oh dear. I'm getting funny looks at work for laughing now!

 

This is another area where I think BAs have the advantage on SMs:

 

Yes. The Baal in particular is very good. I think the fast Vindicator edges out the fast HS-Predator - though by less of a margin than in C:SM due to the Vindicator's (justified...) inflated cost.

 

The main thing, though, is being able to saturate with AV13/14 instead of AV11. You can make some hilarious lists out of the BA 'dex if you're prepared to have no friends at all. Something like 3x Baal, 3x Vindicator, 2x 5-man Assault Squad in LR, Librarian. That fits frighteningly into 1500 points...

[Ookami_81]

As it stands though, the Predator has a dreadful set of rules that make its mobile firepower less than an IG Leman Russ. Effectively, the Predator is a semi-mobile emplacement on the tabletop because that's just how its rules force it to work.

The Predator has never been about throwing out raw firepower, especially more than a Leman Russ. It's not designed to compete with that kind of thing. It's a specialist tank designed to cover a gap in capability elsewhere, either for muppet mowing or tank hunting, that the rest of the force lacks.

 

Now, granted, under 4E it could be used as a somewhat generalist tank with TL lascannon turret and Heavy Bolter sponsons as a decent mobile fire platform, but it wasn't cheap and non-skimmer tanks in general sucked hard.

You are missing my point. It's not that the Leman Russ has more raw firepower than the Predator that annoys me, it's that the Leman Russ has a greater portion of its total firepower available to it while it remains mobile. This is a tank which has a special rule called Lumbering Behemoth, having a better mobility vs. firepower trade off than a tank which, according to all the fluff, is employed as a mobile fire support platform.

 

Explain to me how that works?

 

If you look at the currently recommended crop of Predator loadouts - Dakka, Combi and Tri-Las - they are all 'sit at the back and shoot' machines that bear no relevance to how the Predator is supposed to be deployed under the Codex Astartes. That, in my book, makes it a broken rule.

 

The only reason that the Predator retains a role in the order of battle at all is that its competition in the 'sit at the back and shoot' stakes from Heavy Support are Devastators, which are hideously overpriced. If Devastators were sensibly priced, Preds would be obsolete. As it is, if you have Dreadnoughts or Typhoons they are obsolete unless you are really stuck for Elites or FA.

 

Which brings me back around to the original question; The other reason why Vindicators are the Heavy Support of choice is that Devastators are too expensive, Predators are rubbish, Whirlwinds & Thunderfire are too target-specific, and Land Raiders are available as Dedicated Transports, so you rarely need all three HS slots for them.

 

Thanks to the shoddy job that was done on our HS section, the Vindicator shines - because everything else is rubbish.

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

This is another area where I think BAs have the advantage on SMs: BAs have the mobile predators and vindicators for a very modest price hike. For only 10 points more than the rifleman, you get the autocannon and 2 lascannons with AV 13 on the front of a fast vehicle.

 

PotMS be damned... fast predators/vindicators are what I like.

 

Very true. Sadly, I'm on the verge of ditching C:SM as the stinky pile of trash it is and using C:BA for random games. The only things the standard codex really has going for it are Biker Troops and the Special Characters, and I'm not that enthused by SCs in general.

 

A reason why I bought the C:BA and why because of inconsistencies I'm a bad guy using a DIY chapter withiout any loyalty to a codex or another. I love three things in SM: JP guys, tanks, speeders and bikes, last one being the better thing for me. So I play JP guys as BA, speeders and bikes as C:SM. I guess the day I would build a tank army, I would take the C:BA and do like others a powerful army with six fast tanks at least... :P

 

Of course, all that makes perfect sense: I'll use BA for a tank heavy army and vanilla marines for a speeder/bike, that is: FA... LOL ! :D

 

EDIT: Yeah, I was thinking of one "skorcha burna Baal", two dakka Baals, 3 TLLC fast preds (yeah not effective but I just hate sponsons). I forgot the dedicated LR for non TDA troops (a strange point, I would have read the rule as "dedicated transport for TDA" because of page references). But honestly in 1500 pts it's too mean for my style. ;)

[minigun762]

Here is a question for the Loyalists out there, would you use Daemonic Possession for your Vindicators if you could?

 

I'd like to see it from the other side of the coin.

 

P.S. Daemonic Possession is essentially a halfprice Chronus but its -1BS instead of +1BS.

[DarkGuard]

Here is a question for the Loyalists out there, would you use Daemonic Possession for your Vindicators if you could?

 

I'd like to see it from the other side of the coin.

 

P.S. Daemonic Possession is essentially a halfprice Chronus but its -1BS instead of +1BS.

 

How many points again? If it's around the points for extra armour I'd definitely consider it, if I had the points spare. The ability to keep your tank moving and shooting is pretty pivotal, especially if you're using it as a linebreaker.

[Gunslinger87]

The most sad thing about the vindicator is the defiler... period. Compare those two and you must wonder why a vindicator even exists :-D Ok, not that much, but still...

 

PS deamonic posession is 20 pts (free/included in profile for a defiler), chronus is 70... yes, there is the difference in BS, the fact that Chronus can jump off if his transport is destroyed, but even in this, I think Chaos has the upper hand. And did I mention there is only one Chronus? :-D

[Xeonic]

The -1BS makes possession bad for predators, perfect for Vindicators where the extra .5" scatter doesn't matter much, while keeping the demolisher moving and shooting does. It's fine for land raiders where all the weapons are TL anyways, but chaos land raiders are kinda lame anyways. Chaos in general uses less armor than loyalists partially due to Oblits being awesome, partially due to a lack of options there.

 

In summary Possession on Vindis=win. Possession on predators=lose. Possession on rhinos=overkill. Possession on Land Raiders=good, but the land raider itself is less useful than loyalist ones.

If chaos had razorbacks, it might be worth it to keep them moving and shooting given that most of their weapons are also TL, but it would make those expensive fragile transports more expensive.

 

I'd take Chronus in a game of around 2k pts or more driving a land raider with a massively deadly deathstar unit(thinking full honor guard with a couple relic blades and banner, with Calgar and Cassius). In apoc he would be perfect to drive either a terminus ultra(soooo many lascannnons hitting on a 2+) or a crusader with the masters of the chapter formation inside.

[Ryjak]

Chaos does have Razorbacks though, they're just disguised as Rhinos with Havok Launchers. And you can still fire out the top hatch with them, and carry ten guys, so... they're even better.

[minigun762]

Chaos does have Razorbacks though, they're just disguised as Rhinos with Havok Launchers. And you can still fire out the top hatch with them, and carry ten guys, so... they're even better.

 

Its funny that you say that because very few people ever use Havoc Launchers on Rhinos. My guess is just because its 10 points more then the Razorback and a TL Heavy Bolter may actually be better then the Havoc Launcher against the majority of guys out there. It is against single targets like light armor and MCs.

 

 

As far as the Chaos vs Loyalist Vindicator, I'm not sure who has it better.

Loyalist have a cheaper version that is effective at 115/125 points with a superior dozer blade and built in secondary weapon.

 

Chaos on the other hand has the option for Possession which fixes the main issue of being stun locked but you'll be 15% more expensive and it does nothing against losing your main gun or being immobilized.

[Br0ther Rafen]

I just wanted to add in my word, i think that Vindies are AWESOME. :D

i run a C:SM army with, if i can afford it (which i usually can) 3 Vindies and let me tell you, it's not really hard to get close enough to shoot, and chances are your getting two to where you need them anyway.

and while some people might start going at me for it, they have won me many victories against my friends, especilly when i use them as a massive fire soak while i sneek a rhino or 2 down towards his objective. And all that for roughly 350pt's

[m3628800]

The Chaos vs Loyalist vs Blood Angel Vindicator debate makes me (Chaos) cry. For an extra ten points Chaos loses weapon redundancy and picks up the cheapest armor wargear available to any codex. I'll let you do the math but it's a 15 points value difference, and prevents the Chaos version from developing double weapon redundacy (two storm bolters to sacrifice to weapon destroyed rolls).

 

I'm running two in my present list, AP2 pie plates make FNP MEQ (Death Company, Plauge Marines) a whole lot less scary. Even in cover, or terminator armor, Vindicators are a great counter to massed infantry. A little over kill vs 4+ armor, or worse.

[d@n]

I have seen vindicators used to lethal effect by blood angels and spacewolves. basically you have 3 vindicators followed by a tech priest on a bike and 3 units in rhino behind. The vindicators give you A13 on the front and protect the rhino's while the rhinos block line of sight to the lightly armoured rear if the vindicators, the tech priest obviously is there to fix the vindi's. it works well for the blood angels because there fast vehicles and the spacewolves can have a rune priest in one of the rhinos casting a spell to give everything a 5+ cover save and take a chooser of the slain.

[chaplain belisarius]

I love vindis and always take 2 in my 1k army lists...they scare my opponent, the models are awesome and they are able to hurt pretty much anything! :sweat:

[Wildfire]

I'll let you do the math but it's a 15 points value difference, and prevents the Chaos version from developing double weapon redundacy (two storm bolters to sacrifice to weapon destroyed rolls).

 

You do know that your opponent gets to choose which weapon is destroyed, right?

[greatcrusade08]

Why do people always say use vindicators?

 

Because people lack imagination and creativity... youll often find the word vindicator can be replaced with "vulkan" or "hammernators"

[Wildfire]

Replying to the OP is pretty useless, since the thread is 6 months old.

[greatcrusade08]

Replying to the OP is pretty useless, since the thread is 6 months old.

 

i dunno, its on topic and its a pretty relevant point to make.. people have no imagination anymore

[Brother Valerius]

Everything boils down to personal taste and selecting a force to meet the local challenges.

+1

for my self, before i left the game, just after the Eye of Terror... i used to use 2 vindi.. but i would bring them in as reverses for my gun line. My .02, is to take your 2 weapon upgrade options, for layers of protection for your BFG. (SB+HKM)

 

Doesn't your opponent choose the weapon that gets blown away? Meaning, they're never going to take your upgrade weapons out first, meaning you may as well leave the upgrades at home because they don't protect your demolisher cannon at all.

[m3628800]

I'll let you do the math but it's a 15 points value difference, and prevents the Chaos version from developing double weapon redundacy (two storm bolters to sacrifice to weapon destroyed rolls).

 

You do know that your opponent gets to choose which weapon is destroyed, right?

 

Actually, I thought it was owner's choice. My bad, still gives you two Storm Bolters once the BFG is ripped off, one for free. Thats 4 Str 4 AP 5 shots, which count as

defensive weapons, which anyone can fire after 6" movement, Blood Angels after 12". Still better then my metal box.

 

Also, my primary opponent (Blood Angels), keeps moving his Vindicator 12", firing off the BFG (legal so far), but then he fires off his defensive weapons/hunter killer missiles, (I'm sure that you can only fire the ordnance weapon.) Can anyone confirm this for me?

[Highborn Mergula]

Dude seriosly read Instant death rule!!

thats why having a str 10 ordnanace 1.

A demo cannon will kill 1 monster/multiple wound charachters every round.

[DarkGuard]

Dude seriosly read Instant death rule!!

thats why having a str 10 ordnanace 1.

A demo cannon will kill 1 monster/multiple wound charachters every round.

 

Only if they are toughness 5 or below. I don't know about you, but I don't see many Carnifexes running around with T5. On the other hand, most special characters and multi-wound squads (not fexes) like Warriors and Ravenors will evaporate if you point a Demolisher Cannon at them. But taking into account scatter, you shouldn't be pointing your Demolisher Cannon at single ICs, and if you hit the squad, you'll still miss a couple or roll a one so your opponent has on reason to allocate that ID hit to his IC.

 

Against MCs, they are weak, one shot that can scatter that won't insta kill? I can see most MCs laughing at that. Demolisher Cannons are anti-infantry of all types, and Null Zone makes them vicious Terminator killers. They also do big tanks well. Take melta and plasma if you want to take out ICs and MCs.

[Mysticaria]

I'll let you do the math but it's a 15 points value difference, and prevents the Chaos version from developing double weapon redundacy (two storm bolters to sacrifice to weapon destroyed rolls).

 

You do know that your opponent gets to choose which weapon is destroyed, right?

 

Actually, I thought it was owner's choice. My bad, still gives you two Storm Bolters once the BFG is ripped off, one for free. Thats 4 Str 4 AP 5 shots, which count as

defensive weapons, which anyone can fire after 6" movement, Blood Angels after 12". Still better then my metal box.

 

Also, my primary opponent (Blood Angels), keeps moving his Vindicator 12", firing off the BFG (legal so far), but then he fires off his defensive weapons/hunter killer missiles, (I'm sure that you can only fire the ordnance weapon.) Can anyone confirm this for me?

Yep.. check the "ordnance" rule in the basic rule book. It basically says that ordnance weapons are so powerful that if you fire one no other weapons can fire.

 

-Myst

[m3628800]

Thanks Myst! I agrue the point with him every other week it seems, and I just want to make sure I'm in the right on this one.