Blood Angels Questions

[The Smiling Bandit]

Hey BA folks,

 

I've been bashing my brains out trying to put together a vanilla SM list that's assault-flavored and doesn't totally suck, without much success. People keep telling me to look into Blood Angels. So, before I rush out and buy the Codex and a crapton of Assault Squad boxes, I have some questions, and thanks in advance for the answers.

 

1. I honestly don't like the BA fluff. Not sure why, but space vampires just don't do it for me, and fluff's as big a consideration for me as pure gaming competitiveness. However, I think I've spotted a workaround in GW chapter formation fluff, in that newly-formed chapters usually get loaned a few senior officers from other, established chapters to train them up - so BA or Flesh Tearers or whatever guys could be the training cadre for my DIY chapter, correct?

 

1a. If so, is it possible to avoid a lot of the BA-specific special units without totally gimping myself? I don't know what exactly Sanguinary Priests are, for example, but that sounds pretty vampire-specific; same, obviously, with the named ICs. I know I want to avoid Death Company like the plague.

 

2. Jump-heavy lists look totally doable, and even competitive - is this the case? I'm basically thinking my chapter fluff would put the combat doctrine as Raven Guard crossed with berserkers, mainly because I'm not a big fan of Land Raider spam.

 

3. Getting back to ICs, I noticed in the outdated PDF 'dex that it wasn't possible to take just a vanilla Captain with a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Artificer Armor. Is that still the case with the new codex? I don't know why, but I just like that as my default force commander, even if it puts me at a slight disadvantage. If it puts me at a huge disadvantage or is simply undoable, that really may be a deal-breaker.

 

4. Where, generally, would BAs - or at least all-jump BAs - pick up anti-tank?

 

 

Thanks again.

[Mudpuppet]

4. Where, generally, would BAs - or at least all-jump BAs - pick up anti-tank?

 

Hello,

 

Im a bit of a newb myself but i think i can at least answer this question.

 

In terms of basic jump pack anti-tank BAs tend to fry em with lotsa melta guns and infernus pistols. Or else melta bombs. Considering BAs only scatter D6 inches on the drop you are probably gonna be in range to get 2D6 armour penetration most of the time.

 

In close combat BAs can deal with tanks with good old fashioned power fists, and thunder hammers.

 

If you wanna be a bit more cruel and unusual theres librarian powers to consider too, Sanguine Sword for example gives all your librarians attacks strength 10 which makes for good vehicle busting, infact good anything busting. Then there is also Blood Lance that gives a single strength 8 AP 1 hit to every unit caught in its 4D6 inch path and counts any vehicle armour of over 12 as just 12.

 

Mudpuppet

[SnorriSnorrison]

Hey BA folks,

 

I've been bashing my brains out trying to put together a vanilla SM list that's assault-flavored and doesn't totally suck, without much success. People keep telling me to look into Blood Angels. So, before I rush out and buy the Codex and a crapton of Assault Squad boxes, I have some questions, and thanks in advance for the answers.

 

1. I honestly don't like the BA fluff. Not sure why, but space vampires just don't do it for me, and fluff's as big a consideration for me as pure gaming competitiveness. However, I think I've spotted a workaround in GW chapter formation fluff, in that newly-formed chapters usually get loaned a few senior officers from other, established chapters to train them up - so BA or Flesh Tearers or whatever guys could be the training cadre for my DIY chapter, correct?

 

1a. If so, is it possible to avoid a lot of the BA-specific special units without totally gimping myself? I don't know what exactly Sanguinary Priests are, for example, but that sounds pretty vampire-specific; same, obviously, with the named ICs. I know I want to avoid Death Company like the plague.

 

2. Jump-heavy lists look totally doable, and even competitive - is this the case? I'm basically thinking my chapter fluff would put the combat doctrine as Raven Guard crossed with berserkers, mainly because I'm not a big fan of Land Raider spam.

 

3. Getting back to ICs, I noticed in the outdated PDF 'dex that it wasn't possible to take just a vanilla Captain with a Relic Blade, Storm Shield, and Artificer Armor. Is that still the case with the new codex? I don't know why, but I just like that as my default force commander, even if it puts me at a slight disadvantage. If it puts me at a huge disadvantage or is simply undoable, that really may be a deal-breaker.

 

4. Where, generally, would BAs - or at least all-jump BAs - pick up anti-tank?

 

 

Thanks again.

 

1. Don´t worry - Blood Angels are not vampires anymore. The new GW fluff heads towards the angelic feel and adds a tad of flaw to that. No vampires, except - maybe - Mephiston, but he´s extraordinary in every matter, so hey.

 

1a. Why avoiding BA specific units? That´s why the majority of players uses the codex for, I hope. When totally avoiding anything BA specifc, it might be better to play regular Space Marines.

 

2. Land Raider spam is not really a BA-tactic. Most spam-lists rely on Razorbacks and Rhinos. But yes, an all-JP list is doable, but it requires some practice to make it work as you lack long-ranged firepower and the like.

 

3. No, we still do not have access to Relic Blades or Artificer armour for our ICs. Storm shields may be taken, but that´s it. We also have some other toys to make our ICs worth their points.

 

4. BAs would use all that stuff that Marines would use - Devastators, Landspeeders, Dreadnoughts in DP with MM, but we can also use our assault squads with meltaguns to pop some tanks, which might be the choice for an all-Jp army.

 

 

Snorri

[The Smiling Bandit]

1. Don´t worry - Blood Angels are not vampires anymore. The new GW fluff heads towards the angelic feel and adds a tad of flaw to that. No vampires, except - maybe - Mephiston, but he´s extraordinary in every matter, so hey.

 

1a. Why avoiding BA specific units? That´s why the majority of players uses the codex for, I hope. When totally avoiding anything BA specifc, it might be better to play regular Space Marines.

 

Well, mostly due to my aversion to counts-as. What few vanilla SM lists I came up with that I liked would have benefited greatly from throwing Vulkan in, but it's just so common - and again, for whatever reason, I don't like counts-as - that I just can't bring myself to do it.

 

3. No, we still do not have access to Relic Blades or Artificer armour for our ICs. Storm shields may be taken, but that´s it. We also have some other toys to make our ICs worth their points.

 

:( That's depressing. So no CC-monster vanilla force commanders, huh? I know it's ridiculous, but that may well tip the balance.

[Volcatus]

We have such a unit, however it's not a Captain. The Reclusiarch (Chaplain on steroids) is a fantastic choice if you're going for a vanilla force commander. He has good wargear choices, plus some great special rules to boot (his unit rerolls to-hit on the charge, and if he leads DC they reroll to-hit and to-wound).

[The Smiling Bandit]

We have such a unit, however it's not a Captain. The Reclusiarch (Chaplain on steroids) is a fantastic choice if you're going for a vanilla force commander. He has good wargear choices, plus some great special rules to boot (his unit rerolls to-hit on the charge, and if he leads DC they reroll to-hit and to-wound).

 

 

Eh. Chaplain.

 

Alright, thanks for the assist guys. Looks like I might have to start looking at Space Wolves. :(

[Brother Nathan]

Ok. for one ba arnt space vampires. the have lots of hints at things but definately are not space vampires. nothing really screams i am a vampire in the codex( mephy no longer has the drop down to drink the blood of the fallen rule...) However if you want to advoid the 'worst' of the ba fluff play a sucessor chapter of your own would allow you to go whatever way you want. that really just means you use sanguiniuses geneseed. sure most ba armys use drinking of blood as an activatisation thing for geneseed you could use a transfusion or just go plain smurf way that it works. (of course that would be duller) the main things to advoid would be of course mepheson, astrorath and the death company. of course you would have to have a look at them to see if you want them but they are really bring out the areas you seem to want to advoid. priests well the fnp is easy to explain as thats wat a medic does, the furious charge well by ba fluff they used to be our chappys in a way and lead the men to the charge as welll. but i would say use them sparingly if possible. But yes it is compleately possble to advoid all the really ba specific stuff bar the red thirst rule, but you can explain that away easily enough.

jup pak is very doable. currently we are the best jump packers with the desent of angels rule along side the fact the most of our hqscan have or do have jump packs, we have sanguary guard for elite, assault marines for troop, vanguard and speeders for troops, then thunder hawks for heavys.

For captains we dont got relicblades, but that seems o be for balance reasons when we get so much furious charge on them, combined with twin claws or even just a claw and sheild is painful. Yea still most of us are pretty nffed at our captain options...

Anti tank, melta guns on assaultmarines, infernus pistols on chaacters, multi melta on speeders, whatever weapons you want on the thunderhawk and fists where you can. of course if you can i would say squeeze a fast vindi in somewhere or 2, possibly a baal etc...

[The Smiling Bandit]

Thanks, Brother Nathan.

 

So for HQ units it sounds like BAs basically have a choice between special characters or the Reclusiarch?

 

Also, isn't the Red Thirst pretty much the defining "BAs are vampires" rule?

[Son Of Moriar]

With regards to the anti tank problem; Dante and honourguard with meltas don't even scatter when they arrive. Now where's the rear armour of that tank gone!!!

 

assault squad with a meltgun and or powerfist will get the job done as well. just remember to take advantage of cover to minimise losses

[bloodancient]

Libby's are CC monsters by themselves. Reclusiarchs make a sqaud of VV or Honor monsters. Sang priests take up to 3 any squad in 12" gets FNP and Furious charge which makes them CC monsters even against Plague marines. You can take JP in every force slot you have except heavy but you get the nasty stormraven to backthem up. Just awesome. as to the fluff if you don't want to play a BA based army just remember that they adhear to the Codex Astartes so you could just use the codex and field a vanilla chapter. And i'm not sure what a relic blade is but VV sarge can take blade encarmine which is a two handed master crafted PW.

[The Smiling Bandit]

Libby's are CC monsters by themselves. Reclusiarchs make a sqaud of VV or Honor monsters. Sang priests take up to 3 any squad in 12" gets FNP and Furious charge which makes them CC monsters even against Plague marines. You can take JP in every force slot you have except heavy but you get the nasty stormraven to backthem up. Just awesome. as to the fluff if you don't want to play a BA based army just remember that they adhear to the Codex Astartes so you could just use the codex and field a vanilla chapter. And i'm not sure what a relic blade is but VV sarge can take blade encarmine which is a two handed master crafted PW.

 

That all sounds great, and I know it's a weird sticking point, but the lack of a relic blade vanilla captain really throws a wrench in the works; first model I ever bought, first model I ever assembled, first model I ever painted is assembled as a Storm Shield/Relic Blade captain, and I put a lot of conversion work and general time into it. Really just a Rule Of Cool inclusion, but I wouldn't want to leave it out. Relic blade's basically a power weapon that resolves at Str 6.

[bloodancient]

Well you could just call it a power sword or glaive u can still use the storm shield

[The Smiling Bandit]

Well you could just call it a power sword or glaive u can still use the storm shield

 

I interpreted "blade" pretty freely when I was converting the model, and it's actually a pimped-out hammer from a completely different set of (non-GW) miniatures. Did that before I found out that Thunder Hammers on Init 5 ICs suck. I added enough to it that it could pass for an exotic two-handed weapon, which is basically what a relic blade is, so yeah, I guess I could call it a power weapon just as easily. I don't suppose that BA 'nilla captains can take Thunder Hammers either?

[bloodancient]

Sorry no glaive encarmine but you can take a thunderhammer

[Ranwulf]

Libby's are CC monsters by themselves. Reclusiarchs make a sqaud of VV or Honor monsters. Sang priests take up to 3 any squad in 12" gets FNP and Furious charge which makes them CC monsters even against Plague marines. You can take JP in every force slot you have except heavy but you get the nasty stormraven to backthem up. Just awesome. as to the fluff if you don't want to play a BA based army just remember that they adhear to the Codex Astartes so you could just use the codex and field a vanilla chapter. And i'm not sure what a relic blade is but VV sarge can take blade encarmine which is a two handed master crafted PW.

 

That all sounds great, and I know it's a weird sticking point, but the lack of a relic blade vanilla captain really throws a wrench in the works; first model I ever bought, first model I ever assembled, first model I ever painted is assembled as a Storm Shield/Relic Blade captain, and I put a lot of conversion work and general time into it. Really just a Rule Of Cool inclusion, but I wouldn't want to leave it out. Relic blade's basically a power weapon that resolves at Str 6.

 

Altough you are aware that Space Wolves do not have a Relic blade right? They have a Frost Axe that gives +1 Str. If you wish somenthing like that, you can always use Astorath whose weapon is Str 6 Power Weapon, and he is a High Chaplain.

 

I have to say, it seems like you like more C:SM units then Blood Angels, you should think about it, it is still a good codex and EXCELLENT in good hands.

 

Ran

[The Smiling Bandit]

Libby's are CC monsters by themselves. Reclusiarchs make a sqaud of VV or Honor monsters. Sang priests take up to 3 any squad in 12" gets FNP and Furious charge which makes them CC monsters even against Plague marines. You can take JP in every force slot you have except heavy but you get the nasty stormraven to backthem up. Just awesome. as to the fluff if you don't want to play a BA based army just remember that they adhear to the Codex Astartes so you could just use the codex and field a vanilla chapter. And i'm not sure what a relic blade is but VV sarge can take blade encarmine which is a two handed master crafted PW.

 

That all sounds great, and I know it's a weird sticking point, but the lack of a relic blade vanilla captain really throws a wrench in the works; first model I ever bought, first model I ever assembled, first model I ever painted is assembled as a Storm Shield/Relic Blade captain, and I put a lot of conversion work and general time into it. Really just a Rule Of Cool inclusion, but I wouldn't want to leave it out. Relic blade's basically a power weapon that resolves at Str 6.

 

Altough you are aware that Space Wolves do not have a Relic blade right? They have a Frost Axe that gives +1 Str. If you wish somenthing like that, you can always use Astorath whose weapon is Str 6 Power Weapon, and he is a High Chaplain.

 

I have to say, it seems like you like more C:SM units then Blood Angels, you should think about it, it is still a good codex and EXCELLENT in good hands.

 

Ran

 

I don't know that I like C:SM units more, though I certainly like the wargear options for C:SM vanilla captains much, much more. I like the tactics and the approach of the Blood Angel 'dex; I'd like an assault-focused army. That's almost impossible to do in C:SM, and definitely impossible to do well.

 

Mechanically, BAs do exactly what I want. In fluff/model/individual character terms or whatever, they don't. Wouldn't be an issue if I wasn't 75% hobby/25% actual gameplay, but them's the breaks. Really, all I'm looking for is a Force Commander that's not a chaplain or a librarian and can hold his own in CC. Didn't think that'd be so tough to find in a BA army, as basically the only thing that a C:SM captain has going for him is that he can be turned into a CC monster relatively cheaply. Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificer Armor.

 

Edit: Who's this Chapter Master Gabriel Seth gent they're selling on the GW site? His wargear includes a Blood Reaver, whatever that is.

[bloodancient]

Well like you said thems the breaks. If you don't like the fluff don't like the IC's and and don't like the special characters well then I don't think you should be using the C:BA i'm sorry if you have to use your capt as you choose but if you get a WYSIWYG player he's going to turn your "relic blade" in to a thunder hammer. And there are more CC monsters in this codex than you know what to do with hell mephy's almost a MC

[Ranwulf]

Libby's are CC monsters by themselves. Reclusiarchs make a sqaud of VV or Honor monsters. Sang priests take up to 3 any squad in 12" gets FNP and Furious charge which makes them CC monsters even against Plague marines. You can take JP in every force slot you have except heavy but you get the nasty stormraven to backthem up. Just awesome. as to the fluff if you don't want to play a BA based army just remember that they adhear to the Codex Astartes so you could just use the codex and field a vanilla chapter. And i'm not sure what a relic blade is but VV sarge can take blade encarmine which is a two handed master crafted PW.

 

That all sounds great, and I know it's a weird sticking point, but the lack of a relic blade vanilla captain really throws a wrench in the works; first model I ever bought, first model I ever assembled, first model I ever painted is assembled as a Storm Shield/Relic Blade captain, and I put a lot of conversion work and general time into it. Really just a Rule Of Cool inclusion, but I wouldn't want to leave it out. Relic blade's basically a power weapon that resolves at Str 6.

 

Altough you are aware that Space Wolves do not have a Relic blade right? They have a Frost Axe that gives +1 Str. If you wish somenthing like that, you can always use Astorath whose weapon is Str 6 Power Weapon, and he is a High Chaplain.

 

I have to say, it seems like you like more C:SM units then Blood Angels, you should think about it, it is still a good codex and EXCELLENT in good hands.

 

Ran

 

I don't know that I like C:SM units more, though I certainly like the wargear options for C:SM vanilla captains much, much more. I like the tactics and the approach of the Blood Angel 'dex; I'd like an assault-focused army. That's almost impossible to do in C:SM, and definitely impossible to do well.

 

Mechanically, BAs do exactly what I want. In fluff/model/individual character terms or whatever, they don't. Wouldn't be an issue if I wasn't 75% hobby/25% actual gameplay, but them's the breaks. Really, all I'm looking for is a Force Commander that's not a chaplain or a librarian and can hold his own in CC. Didn't think that'd be so tough to find in a BA army, as basically the only thing that a C:SM captain has going for him is that he can be turned into a CC monster relatively cheaply. Relic Blade/Storm Shield/Artificer Armor.

 

Edit: Who's this Chapter Master Gabriel Seth gent they're selling on the GW site? His wargear includes a Blood Reaver, whatever that is.

 

You could try Black Templars, Marshalls and the Emeperor's Champion are excelent IC units, and The EC have a Relic Blade WITH Artificer Armor.

 

And they are a CC army, but you might need to use Land Raider Spam to be competitive(not sure, maybe).

 

Ran

[Deschenus Maximus]

I'm in a similar boat, in the way I think the BA fluff is... well... kinda gay ("Oooh! I'm a pretty angel, and my father was the prettiest angel there ever was, and ever will be! Oooh!"). I've resisted the lure for years, but I've finally succombed to the BA because I've always loved jump pack marines and dead-hard CC characters... with jump packs. So I've worked around the fluff and made up my own reasons for the rules (ex: my DC are actually captured Chaos marines implanted with engrams who cause them to go crazy over the evil deeds they have performed over the centuries, and are used basically as cannon fodder by my Chapter to cause confusion and chaos in the enemy lines).

 

As for your Captain, your Relic Blade could simply count-as a LC, and Storm Shields are an available upgrade. Sadly, no artificer armour.

[Brother Nathan]

Yea you could use the captain as a normal captain with strm sheild and either a lightening claw, powerweapon fist or thunderhammer. or as a member of and hounourguardor the sarge of a vanguardsquad. alternatively talk t your gamming roup and see if you can create your own special character for your chapter. As for thrdthirst rule, you could not roll it as i keep forgetting to d or use t to your own advantage. say your chapter has malfunctioning geneseed and goes crazy sometimes, or the army chooses a squad to recieve the blessing of the emperor, has visions etc. most chapters have their own version of such things happening, the wolves have the woulfen thing and the templars have the emperiors champion. it can be quite easy to come with such reason for fearless and furious charge, like hey recieved a sermon from the high chapin hours earlier and it clicked in them just bfore the battle etc.

[JamesI]

If you are willing to lose the storm shield you can Counts As Astrorath the Grim as a captain with relic blade and artificer armor. And gain some nice rules too.

 

I use his rules to represent my Chapter Master of the Angels Vermillion.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I was also thinking Astorath could work and he has a 4++ save due to his rozarius. His axe also force opponents to reroll their invulnerable saves as well. It's not a big difference between the 3++ and 4++.

 

0b

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Edit: Who's this Chapter Master Gabriel Seth gent they're selling on the GW site? His wargear includes a Blood Reaver, whatever that is.

 

Without saying too much and breaking the forum rules hopefully..

 

Chapter Master Gabriel Seth is the chapter master of the Flesh Tearers who received dire news when he recently became chapter master.

His Chapter, already reduced to a mere 4 companies, is loosing brothers to the Black Rage faster than they can replenish marines through recruiting. So he decided that his chapter really had two choices: To go down as a renegade chapter of blood crazed marines, or to go down valiantly in a crusade against the enemies of Mankind. Of course, he decided the latter. And since then he has sent his Chapter on a near constant warpath, going from distress call to distress call and gaining a reputation of always being the first to arrive on the scene.

 

The model itself: The Blood Reaver is a special CC weapon: Always striking on Str8 on his normal initiative and having the Rending special rule.

He also has two other rules: One allowing him to forego his normal number of attacks to attack all models in base-to-base contact with him. The other allowing him to counter attack anyone who botches up an attack next to him (some kind of dirty fighting)

 

He is a nice miniature with some cool fluff, but he needs good support around him as well. Especially because he has no artificer armor (the FT don't have much gear left) and his weapon is not a power weapon (though rending is an awesome rule of course, and Str8 on initiative is something not many IC have)

[The Smiling Bandit]

I'm in a similar boat, in the way I think the BA fluff is... well... kinda gay ("Oooh! I'm a pretty angel, and my father was the prettiest angel there ever was, and ever will be! Oooh!"). I've resisted the lure for years, but I've finally succombed to the BA because I've always loved jump pack marines and dead-hard CC characters... with jump packs. So I've worked around the fluff and made up my own reasons for the rules (ex: my DC are actually captured Chaos marines implanted with engrams who cause them to go crazy over the evil deeds they have performed over the centuries, and are used basically as cannon fodder by my Chapter to cause confusion and chaos in the enemy lines).

 

As for your Captain, your Relic Blade could simply count-as a LC, and Storm Shields are an available upgrade. Sadly, no artificer armour.

Yeah. Just when I make my peace with the fact that my HQ in my list would suck unless I used one of the named space vampires, I start hearing about this Red Thirst rule that apparently all the BAs have. That would make it a bit difficult to use the BA codex while going, "No, seriously, these guys aren't space vampire geneseed. What? What's that? They're drinking blood right now? Still. Not space vampires, honest."

[The Smiling Bandit]

I was also thinking Astorath could work and he has a 4++ save due to his rozarius. His axe also force opponents to reroll their invulnerable saves as well. It's not a big difference between the 3++ and 4++.

 

0b :)

 

Chaplain.

 

Without saying too much and breaking the forum rules hopefully..

 

Thanks for the info on him.