Commission painting

[brolthemighty]

Alright, so here's the story. I have a rather large Nurgle based army, and not a lot of time to be able to commit to painting it. Does anyone know of a commission service that does large orders that's reasonable? I'm not looking for Golden Daemon, just a good tabletop quality with some of the models needing cleaned up. So does anyone know of some reputable commissioners?

 

Edit: I've looked at some of the advertised commissioners (BoLS mainly) but my PM's alone would be almost 500 bucks (73 PM's) and I'm looking at only throwing down a grand if possible.

[Tanhausen]

Maybe stating where you are from would help if some commmisioner sees this post ;)

[brolthemighty]

Where I'm from probably wouldn't help, since I currently live in Japan. I'm willing to ship anywhere though.

[Tanhausen]

Obviously, when I said "where are you from" I meant "where do you need the models".

 

Good luck I guess.

[brolthemighty]

I had thought you meant in the case of any local commissioners, my bad. Currently I'm stationed in Japan, but have a US mailing address. I've spent the last two years collecting and converting, and have found myself without the time (or the skill to do it justice) to be able to paint this force. I've only got a couple of units left to decide on their composition and such, so I'm trying to find a way to get them painted. Here's the job:

 

 

54 Chaos Terminators

10 Terminator Lords

73 Plague Marines

9 Land Raiders

9 Rhinos

3 Defilers

4 Blight Drones

7 Daemon Prince of various type

1 Nurgle Daemon Lord (from forgeworld)

1 ultraforge unclean one

5 Brood Howlers

21 nurgling bases

21 Plague bearers

2 nurgle heralds

18 Obliterators (many of which are the old OOP oblits)

 

Give or take.

[winterdyne]

That's a huge job. Bear in mind that even amateur commission guys are looking to cover a bit of hobby money for their time. Professionals are looking for at least a minimum wage.

I reckon you've got at least 70 weeks of work in that list to even basic quality. I reckon based on that I'd need to charge at least £8k, most likely more (I've not bothered with the math), and I'm *very* cheap. Higher end, more established painters will obviously be wanting more for their time. And this isn't including any tougher cleanup / stripping or conversion work.

[brolthemighty]

I find 8k and 70 weeks for basic quality a bit hard to believe honestly.

[CaptainForge]

I recently priced out a commission and learned that roughly it was about A dollar U.S. per army point to have an army assembled and painted to a basic level. Granted that was from one of the businesses that do that sort of thing. Each stage is broken down. Do you need assemblage? Magnetized? Then painting. Also price will depend on the caliber of the artist. We have beginner painters all the way to Golden Demon winners here.

 

So you have to ask yourself, how much is it worth to me to get my models painted up by someone else so I don't have to fool with it?

[Pulse]

Yeh £8k is well over the top, even for some of the professional painters.

[winterdyne]

At the speed I work, for basic (airbrush basecoat, edge highlights, neat details, sand and flock basing) standard:

 

54 Chaos Terminators - say 6 per week - 9 weeks.

10 Terminator Lords - 3 days each - 6 weeks.

73 Plague Marines - 7 ish per week - 10 weeks plus a bit.

9 Land Raiders - 1 per week, assuming no internal detailing, no weapon options - 9 weeks

9 Rhinos - 2 per week, assuming no internal detailing, no optioning - 5 weeks

3 Defilers - 1 per week, 3 weeks.

4 Blight Drones - allow 2 weeks for all 4.

7 Daemon Prince of various type - about 3 days each, minimum - call it 4 weeks.

1 Nurgle Daemon Lord (from forgeworld) - at least a week, allow 2.

1 ultraforge unclean one - at least a week, allow 2.

5 Brood Howlers - dunno what these are. Not counting them

21 nurgling bases - Should be able to do 10 per week. 2 weeks

21 Plague bearers - allow 7 per week, 3 weeks.

2 nurgle heralds - allow 2 or 3 days each, call it a week.

18 Obliterators (many of which are the old OOP oblits) - 6 per week, 3 weeks.

 

Which now I've done the math I make out to be a bare minimum of 59 weeks work. Note this is a 5day, 35 hour working week. The brood howlers have to go on top. Any conversion work has to go on top. I reckon my initial guess is pretty close to the mark. My basic standard is pretty nice, and I'm assuming you want a relatively nice result. You may be able to go cheaper and quicker, but if you do, make sure you go with a reputable firm or well established commission guy. Hope this helps. Certainly a grand (pound or dollar) is in my opinion massively underestimating the time cost involved.

[brolthemighty]

A grand I could definitely see. 8 was mind boggling. Of course, looking at your commission blog, I see that your "standard" is much higher than what I've been seeing on other commission sites and such. I'll definitely keep you in mind for my next army (that's MUCH smaller) if I need a commissioner though. I'm not up on all of the currency symbols, but your pricing is in GBP correct?

[GhostLegion]

a while ago there was a little shop near sagami 2-chome that had a resident painter. he normally does inking for a few of the animation houses, but i have seen him working gw chaos...when he could get it from yellow submarine up in shinjuku. Dont know if he would like wor would entertain doing nurgle...but his slaanesh and tzeentch work was very nicely done. youre not up that way are you?

[brolthemighty]

Northern Japan, up by Misawa.

[winterdyne]

A grand I could definitely see. 8 was mind boggling. Of course, looking at your commission blog, I see that your "standard" is much higher than what I've been seeing on other commission sites and such. I'll definitely keep you in mind for my next army (that's MUCH smaller) if I need a commissioner though. I'm not up on all of the currency symbols, but your pricing is in GBP correct?

 

Yeah, my prices are in GBP. Standards do vary, but honestly, even at 'dippy-dippy, 5 dolla' rates, you're not gonna get even half that list done to any decent standard for a grand, dollar or otherwsie. Most important thing to make sure of, no matter who you get to do the work, and how much they charge is that they're contactable and have a recognisable web trail, ideally with previous customers giving positive feedback. The highest rate of throughput I've seen to what I'd call a decent standard is by Precinct Omega. Nothing fancy, but he seems to be able to churn out about 20 marines a week, and he charges a bit less than me per squad. Good, neat, solid work. Conversely, I've seen some appaling results from some folks which only the least discerning of clients could (IMO) be happy with.

 

The other thing to check out is that your painter / modeller knows how to handle the resin and high end stuff - poorly done these can really drag your satisfaction of a job down.

 

In your position, I'd write up a 1500 - 2000 point list at a time and get them done piecemeal - rather than drop a big investment on the whole lot you can decide if getting the work done by commission is for you, and also get a feel for the quality of the guy you pick, make sure you like the working practice and communications and so on. If things go badly, you can always sell off the painted section of the army on evilBay, or whatever and you won't have lost too much.

 

Good luck with it, and I hope you're happy with the results.

[brolthemighty]

Piece-mealing it is actually a great idea. I was thinking of just sending my whole battlefoam with almost everything in it, but I might just send individual foam trays instead. I did find a commissioner, and his work looks good, for the standard I'm looking for. Over on Dakka. Just checking the online trail now to make sure there aren't any problems.

[Forgefather Vulkan]

Well I was Reading this thread and was wondering if you guys could help me, I'm doing a commision for a mate of mine (Ork warboss) and was wondering of you guys had a system of working out price?? As I'm unsure. Thanks

 

Forgefather

[winterdyne]

(Hours estimate x hourly rate) + paint / putty / model / material cost = total cost. Don't forget to factor in how difficult the kits are to assemble - eg a drop pod is a cheap kit, but expensive job as it's tricky to assemble and has a lot of exposed detail.

[Red Fury]

Well since nobody has mentioned it: http://www.bluetablepainting.com/index.php

Pretty much the standard as far as I know. I have heard good and bad about their painting but I'm sure you get what you pay for. Looking at their pricing, the cheapest level 2 basic paint job is about $4 usd per model. It might be worth while getting a quote, for reference if nothing else.

[LokisSword]

After looking at that Bluetablepainting site I'd be really cautious - the quality of painting looks hugely variable (from Nice-ish to OMG-Dipped).

Whilst the blurb on the website sounds professional, I would definitely want to get some samples done by the same painter who was going to work on the whole army.

Imagine the heartbreak of sending off your full list only to get it coming back looking like its been attacked by a 5 year old.

 

I think Winterdyne's time break down looks pretty accurate - I can just about bash out 1 standard marine a day, although I'm not airbrushing base coats which would cut out a while and I'd prolly equate my high standard to Winterdyne's basic standard :D

 

£8K for 59 weeks work (assuming thats not taking on any other commissions) - The man is going to be living on baked beans and rain water in a cardboard box to even break even.

 

Just food for thought.

[Obliterator]

£8K for 59 weeks work (assuming thats not taking on any other commissions) - The man is going to be living on baked beans and rain water in a cardboard box to even break even.

I have to agree with this. Take into account the sheer number of miniatures to be painted, and you'll be well over 2k before you know it. There will probably be cheaper options then Winterdyne, but in the end you usually get what you pay for.

Personally, I would not pay for a cheap commissioner if I'd only get a 'basic 3 colors, dipped'. Even people with a busy Real Life should be able to squeeze in the time needed for that, especially with the Foundation paints, colored primers and Quickshade. I'd consider commissioning a piece if it would have added value for me; like if the mini would be finished with a quality I could not obtain myself (might even be tabletop if you need to make a deadline).

[winterdyne]

My rates are cheap. I'm slowly increasing them as I build up a decent portfolio, with each new commission. I do like baked beans though. ;-)

[darthgus]

I was gearing up to quote till I saw the size of the army... yeap thats years worth of painting and even airbrushing the lot its going to be a long hard slog. You might want to want to put together a 2000 or 3000 point army and get it commissioned. You can always go back to the same artist later if you like his / her work.

 

As it is, its just to big a job for me to even consider.

[DV8]

I am with Winterdyne here (and a big reason why I have stopped taking commissions for over a year or two now).

 

It is an incredible investment of not just time, but effort on our parts as artists when it comes to commissions. As an artist, your work speaks for you, and you will do your best work when you are personally invested in the work. To that end, a painter should really only tackle projects he/she is inspired or motivated to, otherwise it will reflect poorly in their work.

 

You've also amassed quite a huge collection, and no matter how hyped up a painter can get over the prospect of that many models...I'll be damned if that's a lot of models. Winterdyne's estimates are quite conservative, I know I would charge far more than that. The best way, as has already been mentioned, is to break it down. Once you've found a painter that you are happy to work with, and can produce work to a quality that you want/like/are satisfied with, work out a long term plan BEFOREHAND. Let the artist know in detail what you are looking for, and work out a broad time schedule and queue up all your pieces.

 

This lets the artist pace themselves, taking care not to burn themselves out (or spend all their time on one or two squads, only to be confronted by 50 more and find themselves suddenly lacking any interest). Granted certain artists will have different methodologies than others (I'd rather have the whole lot at once, and assembly line for efficiency) and that can be worked out on an individual basis, but remember that when you commission an army, especially one of this size, you will need to take into consideration the person you are commissioning from. This project will represent a heavy monetary and time investment on both your parts, and both of you should reach some agreeable terms that cater to both parties.

 

Quality is always ALWAYS going to be key, and it is true that you get what you pay for. I have seen Winterdyne's work, and I can tell you now if he is estimating 8 000 GBP for 70 weeks worth of work for the quality he puts out, he is really short-selling himself. And sadly enough people always balk when they ask artists to put forth high quality work, but are then left speechless when quoted on the price it will cost. I see it all the time, and not just in figure painting commissions. As an artist by trade (Technical Artist, specifically) I see it all the time in job postings. Companies want high quality work, and they expect artists to have years of experience, do everything under the gamut of what would be considered art, and yet are only willing to pay barely above minimum wage, if at that.

 

The sad truth is that we very often compromise when it comes to squads and armies, and it's really only in the single miniatures that we tend to make any decent amount of profit. I was fortunate enough to land many steady clients requesting small units or lots of single characters that I was able to pull in a decent wage while being a full time student in college.

 

My point is, you want all that painted, but are only really willing to spend $1000 to get it done? Understand that true professional painters of any decent caliber either make a living full time doing this, or supplement a part time or full time job doing this. They don't just fool around, they take it seriously and treat this for what it is: a job. So should you (and I do not mean that in a negative or condescending way...I'm simply trying to shed light from the other perspective, for those who talk at Winderdyne's estimate, or think that even $1000 or $2000 will be sufficient).

 

And just to provide some perspective on what other artists may charge, here is what I would quote you for, were you to have contacted me:

 

I have two levels of quality: awesome, and slightly less awesome (for professionalism I call them Levels 3 and 2, for characters and rank-and-file, respectively). You can expect no less than competition level from me for characters, and anyone whose seen the armies I put out (particularly my Space Wolves) will understand what my rank-and-file quality level is. I list an estimate of costs because as always, it will always depend on the amount of detail, inclusion of any freehand, etc etc. And this is assuming all I do is paint the models (on top of the full time job I already work). Building/cleaning/conversions are above and beyond.

 

Characters - Level 3

 

10 Terminator Lords - $150-$300 CDN per, 5 days per, 7 weeks ($1,500-$3,000)

7 Daemon Prince of various type - $200-$300 CDN per, 5 days per, 5 weeks ($1,500-$2,100)

1 Nurgle Daemon Lord (Forgeworld) - $200-$300 CDN, 1 week. ($200-$300)

1 Ultraforge Unclean One - $300-$400 CDN, 2 weeks ($300-$400)

 

Infantry - Level 2

 

54 Chaos Terminators - $75-$100 CDN per, 5 ish per week, 11 weeks ($4,050-$5,400)

73 Plague Marines - $75-$100 CDN per, 5 ish per week, 15 weeks ($5,475-$7,300)

2 Nurgle Heralds - $50-$75 CDN per, 1 week ($100-$150)

21 Plague Bearers - $50-$75 CDN per, 5 ish per week, 4 weeks ($1050-$1,575)

21 Nurgling Bases - $25 CDN per base, 3 weeks ($525)

18 Obliterators (many are the OOP models) - $50-$75, 4-5 ish per week, 4 weeks ($900-$1,350)

 

Vehicles - Level 2

 

9 Land Raiders - $200-$300 CDN, 1 per week, 9 weeks ($1,800-$2,700)

9 Rhinos - $100-$150 CDN, 2 per week, 5 weeks ($900-$1,350)

3 Defilers - $200-$300 CDN, 1 per week, 3 weeks ($600-$900)

4 Blight Drones - $150-$200 CDN, 2 per week, 4 weeks ($600-$800)

 

Unknown - Level 2

 

5 Brood Howlers - Dunno what these are

 

Not including the Brood Howlers, my estimated timeline is already 74 weeks. On the low end, the cost is $19,500 CDN (or about 12,000 GPB), and on the high end, the cost is $27,850 CDN (or just over 17,100 GPB). I know it's a lot of numbers but bear with me:

 

The timeline estimate accounts for my working a full-time job (8 hours a day, plus travel time), which means I only manage about 4 hours per day to paint, and about the same on weekends (as I have other commitments to uphold). So conservatively that's 28 hours a week, at 74 weeks is 1,776 hours spent on this project. If you take my estimates, on the low end I will make $11 an hour, and on the high end, I will make about $15.70 per hour. The low end is BARELY above minimum wage here in Canada, and the high end is abysmal for the quality of work you will be getting, and that's assuming I decide to spend every possible moment of my free time for the next 74 weeks (that's just under a year and a half if you think about it) painting ONLY your army.

 

Keep that in mind when researching artists and receiving commission quotes from them.

 

 

DV8

[Tanhausen]

While I agree that most of us in most areas of our lifes want "as good as it gets" for "as cheap as it gets", we all know that quality usually means money.

 

However, the concept of quality is subjective: maybe what a pro comissioner would never accept their name to be linked to, some people just want a tabletop quality model.

 

Think about it: all you need is 3 colours in the model and a painted base, to be considered tabletop.

 

No shading, blending, NMM, glazing, highlighting, texturing... you get the idea.

 

Just my thoughts.

[Hemal]

Agreed and all - but even then that would equate to probably 3 minis an hour for RnF including base coating, prep time, gap filling, basing etc and possibly a half day for a tank sized model including assembly. (Resin is also toxic to work with) assuming an assembly line approach for each set of models.

 

I dunno about you guys but even at UK minimum wage - that equals £2 for each RnF model and £12 for each tank. If you want your lords to be painted like (VERY SIMPLY PAINTED) RnF, then so be it, but I count at least 75 hours there on RnF alone, and thats £600. On models with a single sprayed on undercoat, base coat airbrushed on and bolt guns painted black and then basecoated boltgun metal.

 

Now we have lots of very large models - Demon Princes etc in this, and nurgling bases etc - as well as dozens of tank-class models averaging out at 30+ tank class models *(Land Raiders being double the size of the typical Rhino.., the blight drones and presumably several Demon Pricnes taking a lot of working with as they are Resin).

 

Thats another 15 days at least of work on average of 8 hr days.

Thats at least £360.

 

So £1000 at minimum wage is probably not far off the costs not including postage, packing, insurance etc. And thats the same rate of pay that an unskilled worker gets in a shop assistant or picking/packing position in the UK. So I would factor this up by at least 2 x to equate to what my wife's relatively skilled but certainly not even A-level qualified pharmacy assistant gets as an hourly rate. SO for labour ALONE £2000.... for an limited paint palette and pretty basic paint job, probably washed shade in brown or black/drybrushed highlight. I would ask for compensation of at least an additional £1000 at least in terms of opportunity cost - based on the deadline (If you want me to finish it by a particular date, it means I'd probably have to take holidays from work and work weekends to get it done - costing me family/scoial life for which I would have to be adequately compensated)

 

Add consumables such as paint - you probably add at least 10-15 cans of aerosol spray to base coat that many models. Then the glue - probably lots of bottles of poly cement, lots of loctite superglue, probably a few boxes of paper clips for all those metal models for pinning. Then the greenstuff for gap filling (or are we not gap filling?) and the basing materials.

All in I'd say at least £500-600 for consumables

 

So its already approaching £3600 for single step shade/highlight and no modelling skill apart from basic assembly whatsoever...

 

A minimum of 1 hour PER RNF MODEL is probably required to get a reasonably good finish worthy of GW store display armies and thats not including the additional time for models with serious (at least back in the day...) - that probably adds another £1200 for RnF models at least! Possibly not so much for tanks, but certainly the Demon Princes will increase by a greater amount...

 

I can see this project costing far closer to £10-15 thousand the MOMENT you start having the painter paint nurgle marines with festerig pustules, a couple of layers of shading and highlighting each way, a very neat paint job, additional features like glowing targetters and shiny metal effects on the Obliterators, nicely painted tanks with a smooth and even base coat, a few bits of GS work to represent plagues and infestations on the defilers etc etc.

 

Its like a full time job for the person being engaged - you can't see it as "auxiliary work" and certainly you shouldn't be sruprised to see figures exceeding £8000 for the models. I will gladly paint my won models taking time - I worked out based on my own WORK hourly rate (which doesn't really count) it costs be nearly £15 to assemble and paint a High Elf or CF Tactical marine to my own relatively high standard of tabletop ready....