Why Play Blood Angels Over Space Wolves?

[BrotherMoses]

I think of them as being Marine Eldar Equivalents

 

Lol thats how I've always viewed Blood Angels. We're the closest thing to a finesse style army of the marine dexes.

[Uguai Stormseer]

It's true, Blood Angels need a lot of finesse to play correctly. I wouldn't say they are THE finesse army, my bike army needs a huge amount of finesse to win. All that aside, if you like CC (melee) definitely go with Blood Angels. Jump packs, melta guns, sanguinary priests, power fists. It's a win combo IMO.

 

-US

[OverchargeThis!]

BA can also do a completely non-linear army with units that can accurately deepstrike and assault on the turn they arrive (vanguards with d6 scatter). WIth all jumps, 75% of the army arrives on turn 2.

 

deep striking assault marines don't shoot well, so the vanguards are crucial to tying things up, but it's unique to BA and very effective when its done correctly.

 

Avoiding pods, they army starts to land on turn 2, and if your opponent goes first, you've just denied him two turns of shooting.

[Glendor]

and you can still use tacticals i dont know why everyone is sssooooo against them as they cost the same as CMs. I like a 10 man or 2 to hold objectives while the real fun starts in cc

[Red Dragon]

If your that worried about the amount of vehicles you've got, there is a way of getting around the problem if you've got the time and patience. Just make cardboard models of the vehicles concerned. There are a ton of plans for all of the marine vehicles including different variations of them. Myself personally i intend to make a death company dreadnought for my angels sanguine and a couple of rhinos for my black legion.

[Grimtooth]

When these threads pop up in the Space Wolves forum, my answer is always,

 

"If you need to ask, then don't play Space Wolves."

 

Aside from the smart ass remark, it really comes down to your playstyle.

 

SW are far more flexible then Blood Angels and thus more forgiving. You still need to know how to play the list you build, but the basic GH heavy list is easy to play and easy to win with.

 

Blood Angels are as mentioned a finesse army. Being so new, we are not seeing much finesse gaming. Right now too much shiny toy syndrome with special character lists requiring them to carry an otherwise junk build that has no unit synergy.

[Joasht]

"If you need to ask, then don't play Space Wolves."

 

Haha well in my case I've played Space Marines/Blood Angels for about 14 years, and I also have a Space Wolf army so I was pretty much in a dilemma.

 

I decided to stick with my BA because.....well its a complex story.

 

My Space Marines (which have almost always counted-as BA) have a peculiar color scheme (see my signature, lol), created back when the third edition Blood Angels codex was first released. Up to that point they were Ultramarines (I love blue) but then I realized I liked the Blood Angels codex far more, because it was more in-your-face. That resulted in a terrible hybrid color scheme of blue, red and black because I wanted people to realize its Blood Angels, but I like blue, and probably always will like blue.

 

*Silly pointless tidbit of history: They were initially called The Emperor's Gauntlets as their fists were black. It changed to Emperor's Fury after it was inspired by seeing the cover of the White Dwarf with the 3rd ed Space Wolf codex, which had the word "fury" on the cover. And...also, my first ever experience with 40k was seeing my cousin's Space Wolves*

 

But anyway, despite the revamp of the color scheme three years ago where I changed the base colors from Ultramarine Blue/Blood Red to Regal Blue/Red Gore for the darker feel, I felt their color scheme still sucked, as if some 10 year old kid came up with it (which was actually the case. I was about 10 years old when I came up with it) but never abandoned it because of my sentimental value.

 

So back to the current timeline. I just shifted about two months ago, and a day after I posted this thread, I unpacked my Space Marines, placed them on the table together, and somehow, like as if I had an epiphany of some sort, *they actually looked pretty good together*. In my eyes at least.

 

 

 

 

SOOOOOOOOOOO. Long story short, I figured "Why not stick with it". Sure, some people might hate the color scheme, sure, the codex might not be as killy as I hoped it would be, but then again, I grew up with them :/

 

Hope you guys didn't mind my history lesson (although, I think, most of you just skipped and jumped to the end eh :)).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

BA will eclipse SW in the next few months, it just takes time to figure out the best way to cheese it out.

 

I don't see BA as a finesse army but I can understand why a pup would think that since most of them simply stick to a diet of wolf lord thunderwolf grey hunter long fangs. ;)

 

0b :tu:

[TrentL]

I like both armies, I think they have have a cool feel that is unique to them.

 

I like SW because they are a solid long range army can shoot very well, but you don't want to charge them... I also love how you can hero hammer their HQ units making a powerful HQ without resorting to using a named character or a "Count As"

 

I like my HQ's to be powerhouses, and Wolf Lords with Runic Armor, Storm Shields, and Frost blades with Saga of the Bear are just monsters... currently my HQ's in SM's tend to hide or avoid Ork Warbosses, etc, and I felt that sorta was lame... Why would the "Hero" of the army avoid these HQ's they should meet them in combat!!

 

But when I play SW I tend to race my Rhino's towards objectives, have my longfangs guard an objective, while my Bloodfangs just try and kill SOMETHING, I normally like to drop some WolfGuard termies or dreads to draw some fire.

 

When I play my BA, I know that I need to get the charge off to even stand a chance against Ork hordes etc, while if I'm charged I will survive but it will hurt, where if i charge, the unit of 30 boyz is probably dead. So I tend to do alot more baiting putting out 2 5man Ras's hiding in cover as they advance, both of which are in range of a 10man squad, so that when one of them gets charged I can assist them with a stronger unit, or have enough firepower through Baals / Vindicators that my opponent doesn't want to stand and shoot and charges towards me, allowing me to take advantage of my 12" + 6" charge range of Assault Troops.

 

So I play SW stay at home and be safe shooty list I really don't care what my opp does, they stand snd shoot with me or if they charge me, doesn't really change my game plan.

 

I Play the BA bait and switch, and more trying to lure the opponent into to get charged, doesn't always work, but I enjoy the games I Play :tu: I just wish Sanguinary Priests were upgrades like WG rather than IC's. (What I mean by that is, I wish you could upgrade the Sgt of a Squad to be a Sanguinary Priest)

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Play BA's over space wolves because, all the cool kids are doing it!

[Furioso72001]

fotd > sw?

[Jakobus]

My choice comes from old prejudices, when I started play every second army was Space Wolves.

They where played between extremely good and extremely bad.. there is still the only game I have every seen where one side tabled the other without loosing a single model

I guess I developed a dislike for them then of which I never overcame

 

That and I love jump-packs

[Malachi n'Ral]

I have just been inspired...I will now play Cock Sparrer and The Business when playing fools.

 

Epic.

 

 

This. +2 points, sir. Well played.

[Zid]

Wolves = easy mode. Take some greyhunters, fill out your list with bad ass HQ's and thunderwolves, and watch all your opponents crumble.

 

BA = Fun mode. Yeah, we love assault marines as troops. Yeah, we suffer against templates... but damnit, cheap land raiders and dreadnaught spams so much fun!

 

Pretty much comes down to playstyle and weather you want opponents to hate playing you, or feel like they have a fair chance. A great player with a good SW list will make people hate life... a great player with a good BA list will always put up a good, fair fight.

 

The way I see it is this; if you want to win easymode against 90% of the field, play Orks, IG, or Wolves. If you want a fair game with an army thats unique, play most anything else. I like my BA, wouldn't trade them for any stinky wolves

[Morollan]

Back in the days of 2e I used to play against a guy with a SW army and I got bored rigid of fighting them. My impression at the time was that they were Space Marines +. The Blood Claws were like Assault Marines, but better. The Grey Hunters were like Tactical Marines, but better. The Long Fangs were like Devasator Marines, but better. The Rune Priests were like Librarians, but better. The Wolfguard were like Terminators, but better.

 

Not played against them since coming back to the game in 5e but from reading various websites, codex reviews, batreps etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Back in the days of 2e I used to play against a guy with a SW army and I got bored rigid of fighting them. My impression at the time was that they were Space Marines +. The Blood Claws were like Assault Marines, but better. The Grey Hunters were like Tactical Marines, but better. The Long Fangs were like Devasator Marines, but better. The Rune Priests were like Librarians, but better. The Wolfguard were like Terminators, but better.

 

Not played against them since coming back to the game in 5e but from reading various websites, codex reviews, batreps etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

 

I actually believe the Blood Claws are like Assault Marines but just as good or worse these days..

Everything else you said.. yep, that's basicly it. The only thing C:SM have over Space Wolves is 11 man Drop pods..

[Hfran Morkai]

Back in the days of 2e I used to play against a guy with a SW army and I got bored rigid of fighting them. My impression at the time was that they were Space Marines +. The Blood Claws were like Assault Marines, but better. The Grey Hunters were like Tactical Marines, but better. The Long Fangs were like Devasator Marines, but better. The Rune Priests were like Librarians, but better. The Wolfguard were like Terminators, but better.

 

Not played against them since coming back to the game in 5e but from reading various websites, codex reviews, batreps etc, it seems things haven't changed that much.

 

I actually believe the Blood Claws are like Assault Marines but just as good or worse these days..

Everything else you said.. yep, that's basicly it. The only thing C:SM have over Space Wolves is 11 man Drop pods..

 

I'm so tired of this being brought up because it is simply not true.

 

Twelve man Drop Pods and Land Raiders.

 

Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads

 

Combat Tactics (we get Counter Attack so conceded, though CT is useful)

 

The option to Take bikes as Troops without breaking the bank

 

Your HQ can get access to FNP, both C:SM and C:BA (That riled me a bit)

 

Close combat dreads

 

Terminators which deepstrike (Flipping useful in Planetstrike, our only unit assaulting out of deepstrike is Skyclaws, which don't have bunker busting kit really and are WS3)

 

Oh no! Blood Claws get four attacks on the charge! They're easier to hit than Assault Marines and less reliable if your leash doesn't make it. Not having the opportunity to shoot that squad can make the difference in an assault. If we want a proper Sergeant equivilant we have to use an Elites slot, which are valuable in a SW army. Because a Blood Claw with a single Power Fist attack in subsequent rounds of combat isn't worth it.

 

Sky Claws own Assault Marines! We have no way of getting them a Sergeant, needing to spend a minimum of 95 points for a leash that can keep up (with no useful kit).

 

Grey Hunters we need to make a tactical choice of whether to take an extra special weapon or a proper Sergeant equivalent, or footslog (which I do anyway)

 

Space Wolves are only an easy win army if you know what you are doing and build your list in a certain way, which I'm fairly sure is the same with the BA. For example I build my list for fun, it really is a challenge to win with. Admittedly it's my personal choice but they're both fun.

 

So back off, lest I unleash the Wulfen on your whiney hides

[Khavos]

Twelve man Drop Pods and Land Raiders.

 

Space Wolves have access to the same Land Raider options as everyone else.

 

Heavy Weapons in Tactical Squads

 

Wouldn't be as useful without Combat Tactics...

 

Combat Tactics (we get Counter Attack so conceded, though CT is useful)

 

Not to mention a CCW and a bolt pistol on Tacticals.

 

The option to Take bikes as Troops without breaking the bank

 

That's a good advantage, yeah. One of the few.

 

Your HQ can get access to FNP, both C:SM and C:BA (That riled me a bit)

 

Space Wolves really have nothing to complain about in the HQ department. :lol:

[Hfran Morkai]

Space Wolves have access to the same Land Raider options as everyone else.

 

But C:SM standard Land Raiders hold twelve, and according to the release WD that was intentional, though there's no debate over whether it was simply a cock-up.

 

 

Wouldn't be as useful without Combat Tactics...

 

Still a useful bit of kit, meaning holding objectives is easier. Point is it is something C:SM have which SW's don't

 

 

Not to mention a CCW and a bolt pistol on Tacticals.

 

You get the Bolt Pistol :) Space Wolves have always been better in combat than regular Marines, they did away with True Grit (which in a way I regret because we get people complaining). Also I disagree with the points of our Grey Hunters, though I seem to be one of the few Wolf players who thinks they are too cheap

 

 

Space Wolves really have nothing to complain about in the HQ department. ;)

 

You're right there. I should have phrased this differently. Both C:SM and C:BA have ways of acquiring Feel No Pain, in the case of BA you can give it to your entire army. What niggles me is that according to the rules our Wolf Priests are less competent in the arts of healing than a Guardsman. I know I would happily pay 50 points to confer the ability to a pack he rolls with but hey. *shrugs*

 

My point is that there are things each codex gets that others don't, that's the point hehe

[Grey Mage]

Lets not forget the LSS, arguably one of the best SM vehicles to date.... IC Techmarines and....

 

Fleet, Stubborn, Twin-linked Melta, LD 10 accross the board, the ability to simply pass or fail morale checks at will, outflanking entire armies.....

 

Gate of Infinity, wich was a SW power we no longer get.

 

Sterngaurd, simply the best scoring unit Ive seen in this game- including WGTDA.

 

Combat Squads... not an all the time thing, but darn useful.

 

Iron Clads- the ability to bring in an AV 13 dread is amazing.

 

While Rune Priests might have a more reliable psychic defense against most- but not all- enemies, they cant get an invulnerable save besides the basic 5++ for TDA.

 

Etc etc etc. SWs have our advantages to be sure- GHs are arguably one of the best troops choices in the game- but its not nearly as one sided as people think. The problem stems from the fact that many people who play C:SM dont like their tacticals, want more assault in the army in general, and dont enjoy using their special characters- none of wich is a problem with the codex itself. Thats why they complain- they want our toys and their own too.... and it just doesnt work like that.

[DV8]

Sorry to harp on everybody's parade here, but it bothers me that people can so readily dismiss Codex: Space Wolves as an "easy win" book, that people complain about all the stuff lacking in Codex: Space Marines, or who naturally assume that Codex: Blood Angels will have their time. These are the same people who posturize that Space Wolves are only so naturally powerful because people have had more time to figure it out, and that given an extended progression of time, Blood Angels will rise up and replace them as the dominant codex. By that logic, Codex: Blood Angels will become the new "easy win" Codex once people have "figured it out".

 

Please, get off your high horse.

 

The bottom problem is this, and this will happen with EVERY codex, past, present, and future: people are unhappy, angry, bitter, worked up, because they are comparing Codices to Codices.

 

"Why doesn't my Codex have this?"

"Why do they get these shiny toys and we don't?"

"I want Feel No Pain and Furious Charge for my infantry."

"Mephiston is a crutch for players"

"Thunderlord/Thunderwolf lists are beardy and broken."

 

The list goes on, and the problem is people fail to realize that you cannot compare Codices to each other because you end up with a faulty standard, particularly when you become so narrow-minded as to focus in on and compare units to units! You end up setting a poorly conceived standard based on one or two particular Codices and by comparing everything to that standard, things become unbalanced, illogical, and just plain silly!

 

The fact is, Codex: Space Marines, Codex: Blood Angels, and Codex: Space Wolves are all equally balanced books. What you fail to realize (and why you perceive some books as stronger or weaker, as "easy win" or whatever) is that each book is designed for a particular play style. This play style is simple in nature, and it defines the Codex, it's units, options, and how the army plays in any variation in any combination on the tabletop.

 

Codex: Space Marines was designed for versatility and/or flexability. However you want to put it, Codex Space Marines gives you many different ways to play the army, from pure infantry to pure mech to biker lists, using different characters to radically change the functionality of some units. And in all instances in the macro situation, most of their units keep this versatility in mind. Tactical squads able to field combat weapons, special weapons, and heavy weapons for a variety of situations, or Devastators with a mix of heavy weapons and generic troopers. You could take Pedro Kantor to bring in Sternguard with their special ammunition to give yourself more powerful close-range firepower, or field a Captain on bike or Kor'sarro on Moondrakken to field an army entirely mounted on bikes. Vulkan allows you to twin-link flamers and meltas, and master-craft all thunder hammers, naturally creating in the army a leaning towards those particular weapons, and units that field those weapons (Land Speeders and Assault Terminators, as an example). All these and more are just ways in which Codex: Space Marines achieves a versatility that Blood Angels or Space Wolves could never hope to achieve.

 

Codex: Space Wolves was designed for efficiency. No matter how you try to argue it, that is their key tenet. You can try to argue that Space Wolf units are versatile or flexible (ie Grey Hunters being good at shooting and assault, etc.), and you would be wrong. On an individual level Space Wolf units are incredibly inflexible, because their units are stream-lined and geared for one particular purpose, a purpose they will excel at. But that is their greatest strength, because each unit serves a purpose. It fulfills one function, it excels at it, it exists for that purpose alone, and it is in this narrow path that the Space Wolf army as a whole becomes versatile, flexible. Each unit is efficient because you pay marginally fewer points on units to fulfill whatever function they exist for, and you aren't wasting points on anything else. You don't struggle with wasting points on un-used gear, you don't struggle with thinking...do I want this unit to stand still and fire its heavy weapon, or move up and use its special weapon or engage in combat? You don't have to worry if you want your character around to buff your army, or get him up into combat where he truly excels. Space Wolf units are efficient to the extreme, and when you incorporate a harmonious balance of units in your army, when you capitalize on the synergy to be found combining ranged units with close range units, you have an army that is capable of doing whatever you ask of it.

 

Codex: Blood Angels was designed for aggressiveness. Regardless of the units you choose, the Codex invariably leans heavily towards an in-your face style of play, one that favors the bold and punishes the players with the lack of foresight to properly plan and coordinate their attacks. Units in the Blood Angels codex are devastatingly powerful, exponentially more so when used synergistically, but this is counter-balanced by how expensive they are. By creating that disparity, you are given a choice of investing in a lot of heavy hitters and shiny toys, but being much more fragile, or investing in a stable core, but giving up a lot of the more fun elements. But in all circumstances, to really capitalize on the strengths of your army you need to be aggressive with it. Isolate enemy units, destroy them with the full force of your army, and move on. You take the initiative and force your opponent on the defensive. Force them always to react to you, whether you use your fast vehicles to create a super-mobile, shooty army, or use your combat units to create an army that sweeps everything away in combat. THAT is how Blood Angels win, and it will punish those without that killer drive.

 

And no matter which book they use, good players who understand their army, who understand their enemy, and know how to use their strengths to exploit their enemy's weaknesses - these are the players who win. It's not up to the book, it's up to the player.

 

 

DV8

[Grey Mage]

Codex: Space Wolves was designed for efficiency. No matter how you try to argue it, that is their key tenet. You can try to argue that Space Wolf units are versatile or flexible (ie Grey Hunters being good at shooting and assault, etc.), and you would be wrong. On an individual level Space Wolf units are incredibly inflexible, because their units are stream-lined and geared for one particular purpose, a purpose they will excel at. But that is their greatest strength, because each unit serves a purpose. It fulfills one function, it excels at it, it exists for that purpose alone, and it is in this narrow path that the Space Wolf army as a whole becomes versatile, flexible. Each unit is efficient because you pay marginally fewer points on units to fulfill whatever function they exist for, and you aren't wasting points on anything else. You don't struggle with wasting points on un-used gear, you don't struggle with thinking...do I want this unit to stand still and fire its heavy weapon, or move up and use its special weapon or engage in combat? You don't have to worry if you want your character around to buff your army, or get him up into combat where he truly excels. Space Wolf units are efficient to the extreme, and when you incorporate a harmonious balance of units in your army, when you capitalize on the synergy to be found combining ranged units with close range units, you have an army that is capable of doing whatever you ask of it.

 

....

DV8

Possibly the best description Ive had yet. Its always been a mystery to my group why, and how, my SWs can play so similarly to my Eldar.... and hard to put their finger on. If they ever read this itd make sense, and Id get even more crap for it lol.

[Deus_Sanguinius]

And no matter which book they use, good players who understand their army, who understand their enemy, and know how to use their strengths to exploit their enemy's weaknesses - these are the players who win. It's not up to the book, it's up to the player.

 

 

DV8

 

^This! A very outstanding post DV8.

[Morticon]

Excellent post DV8.

[Anpu42]

You could always do what I did.

My DIY Chapter the Imperial Tigers started as a C: SM back in 2nd Edition

 

When C: SM 5th came out I had to change [All mt Sargents were armed with Paired Lighting Claws.

Well to make a long Story Short.

 

Each "Company is a Diferent Codex

1st Company is a DA Death Wing

2nd Company is Gery Knights

6th Company is Blood Angles

 

I set up all of my "Tacticals and Assualt Squads" are Painted and Assembeld to be used on any list.

Well to make a long Story Short once more [To Late].

 

You could make your "Space Wolves" a "Special Company" within your DIY and then you can just paint all of your Vehicles the Same.