So what's the deal with successors?

[Valerian]

The reason Space Wolf successors are frowned upon is Space Wolves can only come from Fenris, the ill-fated Wolf Brothers went nuts and fell apart when recruiting from a world other than Fenris.

 

Vash, where in the hell did you get that from? Seriously? There is no fluff anywhere that says this (except perhaps fan-fiction).

 

In fact, the entire Legion was originally comprised of non-Fenrisian Marines, based off of Russ' geneseed when he hadn't yet been discovered on Fenris. It wasn't until he was reunited with the Emperor and his Legion that he started integrating in Fenrisians, then making them he sole source of future recruitment.

 

V

[Vash113]

Well I desagree with Vash113 on the Wolfbrothers, there is no evendence that they suffered mutation in my view (the codex says "in later times" when refering to mutation and there is the white dwarf issue that actually says what happened to them (Valerian put it here *click*, scroll down to Wolfbrothers)).

 

This is not the only account of what happened to the Wolf Brothers and disagrees with the generally accepted version which is the Chapter was disbanded due to genetic instability.

 

I see no reason that you can't find a way around the fluff to make a successor chapter that recruits from another planet (the fluff definitely doesn't say people other that Fenrisians can't handle it, only that "perhaps the high Lords recognised the problems that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ". It doesn't say it would be any different to how bad it is on Fenris).

 

So you could even make a lost company that founded it's own chapter quite easily in my opinion.

 

It isn't a matter of "how bad it is on Fenris" compared to other places, it has everything to do with the Canis Helix. Fenresians are not like any other humans in the galaxy, the legacy of Leman Russ can only function correctly when implanted in a Fenresian, in others the genetic instability is too extreme. In fact if we look at more recent material like A Thousand Sons (as much as I might not like it) we see things like the supposed "there are no wolves on Fenris" and the idea that the Fenresian colonists merged Wolf DNA to survive in the harsh conditions of the planet, in short Fenresians genetic pool is different from every other world in the galaxy.

 

In addition to this, the Space Wolves have had the same 'genetic instability' as during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. Wulfen have existed from the very beginning, so the reference really makes no sense if in relation to the Space Wolves themselves for they have no more instability today than they had at any other time. The Wolf Brothers and any attempt at recruiting away from Fenris is another matter.

 

A good thread to look through on the subject is Of Space Wolf Successors and Lost Companies.

 

Not to mention, far from being easy, you can't just go and found a Chapter, the High Lords aren't about to let any Space Marine Company who feels like it plant their flag on a world and start recruiting up to Chapter strength, that would be a pretty certain way to get the Company declared renegades and heretics and hounded by the Inquisition.

 

Going one further, lets think about what creating a Chapter would mean and what the Lost Company would really have to do:

 

First you have to consider where they get their specialists, as the Great Company would have to have managed to convince at least 1 Iron, 1 Wolf and 1 Rune Priest to come with them, replacing Iron Priests would be impossible as they could not send recruits to Mars to be trained and there's only so much any (loyal) servant of Mars will teach a none Mars inducted acolyte. Gene-stocks would also be a major problem, as even if each Great Company and Great Ship maintains an Apothecarion complete with stocks of gene-seed it would at most be about enough to replace the losses of the Company through a single extended Campaign and not nearly enough to build an entire Chapter. Thus even if the Lost Company did manage to have all the specialists, find a planet with suitable recruits to become Space Marines, and have managed to avoid the Inquisition then it would still take them the better part of centuries to build up to anything resembling a Chapter.

 

However how do they arm and armor these warriors? Where do they get the Power Armor? Its not easy to make or acquire and what about Rhinos and other vehicles? Ships and Thunderhawks? Heck bolters and bolt shells? All of these things either came from Forge Worlds or the forges on Fenris, how does a single Lost Company manage to acquire these facilities and resources when they cannot go through official Imperial authorities? Do they start raiding Forge Worlds and Mechanicus Convoys? If so they are now no better than renegades and traitors.

 

It takes a great deal to arm, armor and supply a Company of Space Marines in the field, a great deal more to supply a Chapter and all of this is technology, facilities, equipment and resources that are very rare, very valuable and extraordinarily difficult to acquire if you don't already have them.

 

Even if a Lost Company didn't have genetic instability from non Fenresian recruits to worry about, it would be hard enough for them to fight and maintain their numbers away from the Fang, let alone try to expand or grow.

 

That was long winded but I hope you see the point, if you put up a DIY project in the Liber Astartes board you will get those questions and need answers for them.

 

In the end, it is a great deal easier to justify a White Scars successor that acts like the Space Wolves, they're already a Chapter and genetic line that share many of the same dispositions as the Space Wolves. I could easily see a successor Chapter deviating from the Codex Chapter over time to emulate their death world origins, whatever those may be whether you want to be Space Celts with bears, or steppe Mongols riding Lions and Tigers, whatever way you look at it the choices are far more open and easy to justify.

 

A Lost Company itself, as long as its not trying to do the aforementioned and start its own Chapter, is also another way to get around the problem and paint your Space Wolves however you want.

 

I appreciate the perspective. My trouble is I'm big on fluff, REALLY big on the Codex, which I just picked up, adverse to the color scheme, and unreasonably adverse to playing already-established chapters. It's tough to satisfy. :P

 

In response to this, another thing to do is just stick with the Space Wolves. They may be an established Chapter but its not like we have a unified Chapter Symbol or that you have to pick a known Great Company. Your iconography, Lord, history and traits can all be wildly different and still be part of the main-stream Space Wolves. The color-scheme is also fairly mutable, as long as your some shade of grey your good to go. I frown on "Space Wolves" that are painted bright blue or red or something but as long as its a shade of grey they look like Wolves to me. You get people favoring the dark grey of Pre-Heresy Space Wolves, others like the bright Blue-Grey more common these days, and everything in between. My own Wolves use the darker very slightly blue grey Shadow Grey paint and I like its more muted appearance.

 

Add to that red, white and yellow are all easily complementing colors for shoulder pads Great Company and Pack Designation insignia, boltgun colors and so forth and you have a fairly wide palette to work from. Take a look around the Hall of Honor sometime, the variety is quite significant.

[Khavos]

In response to this, another thing to do is just stick with the Space Wolves. They may be an established Chapter but its not like we have a unified Chapter Symbol or that you have to pick a known Great Company. Your iconography, Lord, history and traits can all be wildly different and still be part of the main-stream Space Wolves. The color-scheme is also fairly mutable, as long as your some shade of grey your good to go. I frown on "Space Wolves" that are painted bright blue or red or something but as long as its a shade of grey they look like Wolves to me. You get people favoring the dark grey of Pre-Heresy Space Wolves, others like the bright Blue-Grey more common these days, and everything in between. My own Wolves use the darker very slightly blue grey Shadow Grey paint and I like its more muted appearance.

 

Add to that red, white and yellow are all easily complementing colors for shoulder pads Great Company and Pack Designation insignia, boltgun colors and so forth and you have a fairly wide palette to work from. Take a look around the Hall of Honor sometime, the variety is quite significant.

 

I thought all Great Companies were accounted for; the Codex makes it seem that way, giving every last damn Wolf Lord a name and brief backstory. That's my main hurdle at the moment for forming a Lost Company.

 

As far as your points regarding the creation of a successor, they're good ones. I believe I have answers for them, though, or at least everything save the question of whether or not recruiting from somewhere other than Fenris is in fact viable; I don't know about that one, I'm obviously not as well-versed in SW fluff as the rest of you. Valerian does raise an interesting point, though, in pointing out that prior to the discovery of Russ on Fenris, the Legion had already been formed from his geneseed.

 

As for the rest, much as I'd hate to ape anything about the Soul Drinkers, I would point out that they did go renegade and started recruiting. Obviously they'd be understrength in a lot of key areas, and if I decided to go that route - with, say, a Lost Company that goes at least quasi-renegade - I'd intent to form the lists to reflect that. I like the idea of an ultimately doomed Company/Chapter fighting a losing battle against gradual attrition, rather than a Mary Sue DIY. If Space Wolf geneseed is ultimately incompatible with any save those who come from Fenris, that's obviously out the window and I'll just have to make due with a Lost Company. Either way, I don't think I'd go with a straight-up successor; it'd either be a Lost Company that goes de facto renegade by starting to recruit from a planet, or if that's not possible, simply a Lost Company.

 

As far as colors, I have no problem with gray as the base, as I'd already intended to go (fairly dark, probably Charadon Granite) gray as the primary color. The secondary, pauldron color would've been Fenris Gray, though, and that's a grayish-blue look. No yellow to speak of. Hard to paint, just not a fan of it.

[Jonny]

This is not the only account of what happened to the Wolf Brothers and disagrees with the generally accepted version which is the Chapter was disbanded due to genetic instability.

 

Being generally accepted is irrelevant, if we are looking at the fluff then it's the fluff that counts. If there are stronger pieces of evidence to support them being disbanded than please feel free to provide, there may be hints towards other possibilities in other fluff however I read non other than that which out right say's it. It also is fits with the codex which says "in later times" and while books and WD count, the codex always supersedes them.

 

It isn't a matter of "how bad it is on Fenris" compared to other places, it has everything to do with the Canis Helix. Fenresians are not like any other humans in the galaxy, the legacy of Leman Russ can only function correctly when implanted in a Fenresian, in others the genetic instability is too extreme. In fact if we look at more recent material like A Thousand Sons (as much as I might not like it) we see things like the supposed "there are no wolves on Fenris" and the idea that the Fenresian colonists merged Wolf DNA to survive in the harsh conditions of the planet, in short Fenresians genetic pool is different from every other world in the galaxy.

 

Where does it say they need these genetic enhancements to accept the Helix?

 

In addition to this, the Space Wolves have had the same 'genetic instability' as during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. Wulfen have existed from the very beginning, so the reference really makes no sense if in relation to the Space Wolves themselves for they have no more instability today than they had at any other time. The Wolf Brothers and any attempt at recruiting away from Fenris is another matter.

 

This I would call a direct contradiction between codex and BL fluff as personally "giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen." is pretty black and white to me and stands in that face of any hints towards to the "generally accepted version" of what happened to the Wolfbrothers

 

A good thread to look through on the subject is Of Space Wolf Successors and Lost Companies.

 

I always appreciate fluff, thank you!

 

easy[/i], you can't just go and found a Chapter, the High Lords aren't about to let any Space Marine Company who feels like it plant their flag on a world and start recruiting up to Chapter strength, that would be a pretty certain way to get the Company declared renegades and heretics and hounded by the Inquisition.

 

Going one further, lets think about what creating a Chapter would mean and what the Lost Company would really have to do:

 

First you have to consider where they get their specialists, as the Great Company would have to have managed to convince at least 1 Iron, 1 Wolf and 1 Rune Priest to come with them, replacing Iron Priests would be impossible as they could not send recruits to Mars to be trained and there's only so much any (loyal) servant of Mars will teach a none Mars inducted acolyte. Gene-stocks would also be a major problem, as even if each Great Company and Great Ship maintains an Apothecarion complete with stocks of gene-seed it would at most be about enough to replace the losses of the Company through a single extended Campaign and not nearly enough to build an entire Chapter. Thus even if the Lost Company did manage to have all the specialists, find a planet with suitable recruits to become Space Marines, and have managed to avoid the Inquisition then it would still take them the better part of centuries to build up to anything resembling a Chapter.

 

However how do they arm and armor these warriors? Where do they get the Power Armor? Its not easy to make or acquire and what about Rhinos and other vehicles? Ships and Thunderhawks? Heck bolters and bolt shells? All of these things either came from Forge Worlds or the forges on Fenris, how does a single Lost Company manage to acquire these facilities and resources when they cannot go through official Imperial authorities? Do they start raiding Forge Worlds and Mechanicus Convoys? If so they are now no better than renegades and traitors.

 

It takes a great deal to arm, armor and supply a Company of Space Marines in the field, a great deal more to supply a Chapter and all of this is technology, facilities, equipment and resources that are very rare, very valuable and extraordinarily difficult to acquire if you don't already have them.

 

Even if a Lost Company didn't have genetic instability from non Fenresian recruits to worry about, it would be hard enough for them to fight and maintain their numbers away from the Fang, let alone try to expand or grow.

 

I would call that easy, just needs a small amount of imagination. Could be that a Wolf Lord swears loyalties to an inquisitor and somehow those loyalties come into comflict with the Great Wolf and the Wolf Lord sides with the inquisitor over the Great Wolf (with a good bit of thought a nice story could be created about why he chose the inquisitor over the Great Wolf). As thanks the inquisitor could give them (help them get) a planet to recruit from (could strike a deal that if they protect a world the inquisitor owns then they can recruit from it or something). Then they have the ability to send initiates to mars for tech priests and begin to be self sufficient, they set up their own WP's for their new chapter, now they just need a RP

 

or

 

You could have had them away with said inquisitor and several WP, RP and even an IP attached if he wished, they could get stuck in the warp for several centuries, thought lost and replaced. When they do return the WL is angry he has been replaced, leaves and the WP's etc. after spending so long with him decide feel honour bound to stay with him and help him (he could have saved their lived tones of times over the years and they feel indebted). The inquisitor also feels indebted and helps (possibly with giving or just helping them get a suitable planet.

 

As for recruiting, they could maintain a small force or they could some how find away to get aid into making a full chapter

 

That was long winded but I hope you see the point, if you put up a DIY project in the Liber Astartes board you will get those questions and need answers for them.

 

I gave two possibilities with about 5 seconds worth of thought and while I admit they need some padding out they could both be viable.

 

In the end, it is a great deal easier to justify a White Scars successor that acts like the Space Wolves, they're already a Chapter and genetic line that share many of the same dispositions as the Space Wolves. I could easily see a successor Chapter deviating from the Codex Chapter over time to emulate their death world origins, whatever those may be whether you want to be Space Celts with bears, or steppe Mongols riding Lions and Tigers, whatever way you look at it the choices are far more open and easy to justify.

 

personally I don't see that as any harder or easier.

 

Regards

Jonny

[Grimtooth]

Vash, the Legion of TERRAN Space Wolves that were created before Fenris or Russ were discovered by the Emperor would beg to differ with your claim of only native Fenrisians being able to accept Russ' geneseed.

[Grey Mage]

Vash, the Legion of TERRAN Space Wolves that were created before Fenris or Russ were discovered by the Emperor would beg to differ with your claim of only native Fenrisians being able to accept Russ' geneseed.

Im not saying I agree or disagree- as Im rather out of it- but I will say this:

 

The Emperor could do things with gene-seed that no one else can even dream of. If he wanted to turn a watermelon into a full fledged imperial fist then I have every confidence he could do it.

 

So Terran Marines isnt nessecairily a valid argument.

[Valerian]

Vash, the Legion of TERRAN Space Wolves that were created before Fenris or Russ were discovered by the Emperor would beg to differ with your claim of only native Fenrisians being able to accept Russ' geneseed.

Im not saying I agree or disagree- as Im rather out of it- but I will say this:

 

The Emperor could do things with gene-seed that no one else can even dream of. If he wanted to turn a watermelon into a full fledged imperial fist then I have every confidence he could do it.

 

So Terran Marines isnt nessecairily a valid argument.

 

GM, it is not proof, certainly, but it is evidence. In the fluff, there exists evidence of non-Fenrisian Space Wolves, whereas there is no evidence that using non-Fenrisians causes a problem with the geneseed. If there was, wouldn't that be pretty damned odd? Out of all of the places (out of literally billions of planets) that the Chaos Gods could send Russ, they end up sending him to the only planet in the galaxy with the right kind of humans that can be compatable with his genetic information. That's too silly for even GW authors to try to pull off.

[Vash113]

I thought all Great Companies were accounted for; the Codex makes it seem that way, giving every last damn Wolf Lord a name and brief backstory. That's my main hurdle at the moment for forming a Lost Company.

 

Every Lost Company is replaced however, meaning that while yes all of the Wolf Lords are present and have names that doesn't mean there won't also be any number of Lost Companies active at the same time. Plus you shouldn't let the existing Wolf Lords get in the way. My Great Company is that of Wolf Lord Silvar Stormblade and is called the Stormblade Great Company. He isn't one of the existing Lords and I haven't even covered his existence by unofficially killing off one of the Lords or making him a Lost Company. If I really felt like explaining it in the back story I'd probably say his was a Company lost in the warp for a century or two to return and find itself replaced and is simply waiting for a spot to open up before resuming an official place on the roster. I doubt the Space Wolves would mind too much.

 

As far as your points regarding the creation of a successor, they're good ones. I believe I have answers for them, though, or at least everything save the question of whether or not recruiting from somewhere other than Fenris is in fact viable; I don't know about that one, I'm obviously not as well-versed in SW fluff as the rest of you. Valerian does raise an interesting point, though, in pointing out that prior to the discovery of Russ on Fenris, the Legion had already been formed from his geneseed.

 

I'll respond to that in my response to Brother Ramses further in the post. In short, Terran Marines are a different story and not really proof of what we know of as Space Wolf gene-seed today being used to create Marines problem free.

 

As for the rest, much as I'd hate to ape anything about the Soul Drinkers, I would point out that they did go renegade and started recruiting. Obviously they'd be understrength in a lot of key areas, and if I decided to go that route - with, say, a Lost Company that goes at least quasi-renegade - I'd intent to form the lists to reflect that. I like the idea of an ultimately doomed Company/Chapter fighting a losing battle against gradual attrition, rather than a Mary Sue DIY. If Space Wolf geneseed is ultimately incompatible with any save those who come from Fenris, that's obviously out the window and I'll just have to make due with a Lost Company. Either way, I don't think I'd go with a straight-up successor; it'd either be a Lost Company that goes de facto renegade by starting to recruit from a planet, or if that's not possible, simply a Lost Company.

 

Well the Soul Drinkers are best avoided entirely. However a Lost Company is deffinitely the most hassle free way to go, as you can in essence do whatever you wish with a Lost Company. Everything from quasi-rogue to outright renegades to slavering chaos traitors. There are examples of all of these in the fluff.

 

As far as colors, I have no problem with gray as the base, as I'd already intended to go (fairly dark, probably Charadon Granite) gray as the primary color. The secondary, pauldron color would've been Fenris Gray, though, and that's a grayish-blue look. No yellow to speak of. Hard to paint, just not a fan of it.

 

Dark Gray is still good for Space Wolves, and as for yellow I would not worry about it so much. Iyanden Darksun makes yellow a lot easier to paint. Even watered down you can get a solid yellow in just two coats, compared to a dozen or more with conventional GW paints. If you want it brighter add a thin coat of Golden Yellow to the Iyanden Darksun and there ya go, perfect background for Space Wolf pack markings or Company markings.

 

Being generally accepted is irrelevant, if we are looking at the fluff then it's the fluff that counts. If there are stronger pieces of evidence to support them being disbanded than please feel free to provide, there may be hints towards other possibilities in other fluff however I read non other than that which out right say's it. It also is fits with the codex which says "in later times" and while books and WD count, the codex always supersedes them.

 

Actually no, it doesn't fit with the Codex material, disappearing after traitors is not really "ill-fated," not by a long shot and "in later times" means nothing and proves nothing. It's the grammatical equivalent of "I could care less" which tells us nothing, except that you could care less but that could be everything from 1% of caring to 100%, all it tells us is that you can't possibly care nothing which is generally what such statements are trying to get across and "in later times" is no different for it could mean anything from a few years later to a few thousand years later and doesn't help prove the point.

 

Where does it say they need these genetic enhancements to accept the Helix?

 

That's just being obstreperous, the base genome of the human is going to have a huge impact on whether the marine can become an astartes or not. The Canis Helix is going to be a critical part of that and since genetic instability has only effected the one successor ever attempted with the Space Wolf gene-seed and not the recruits from Fenris then it logically follows that the genetic stability of the Space Wolf gene-seed is tied to the Fenresians themselves. Astartes can only be created from a very narrow window of compatibility, when the baseline genetic pool contains such a significant genetic trait it is going to have an invariable impact on the Chapter. Do you really mean to tell me the Canis Helix and genetic traits of the Fenresian people are not related and tied together? Well you might, but it would still be implausible.

 

This I would call a direct contradiction between codex and BL fluff as personally "giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen." is pretty black and white to me and stands in that face of any hints towards to the "generally accepted version" of what happened to the Wolfbrothers

 

Yea how come? I just see old fluff being old fluff and since the subject is all old fluff its hardly unanticipated or a major difficulty. However you cut it the Wolf Brothers are an ill-fated Chapter, with dark rumors of genetic instability and eventual disappearance/destruction and the High Lords have not divided the Space Wolves or used their gene-seed since the 2nd Founding (if that). Regardless the result is: no Space Wolf successors.

 

I would call that easy, just needs a small amount of imagination. Could be that a Wolf Lord swears loyalties to an inquisitor and somehow those loyalties come into comflict with the Great Wolf and the Wolf Lord sides with the inquisitor over the Great Wolf (with a good bit of thought a nice story could be created about why he chose the inquisitor over the Great Wolf). As thanks the inquisitor could give them (help them get) a planet to recruit from (could strike a deal that if they protect a world the inquisitor owns then they can recruit from it or something). Then they have the ability to send initiates to mars for tech priests and begin to be self sufficient, they set up their own WP's for their new chapter, now they just need a RP

 

Actually... not really. Imagination can cover some things but unfortunately that won't stand up to scrutiny. Not only are the Space Wolves as a whole very distrustful of Inquisitors in general, but they outright fire on any Inquisition vessel that comes into Fenresian space without permission. Not to mention that Inquisitors are all individuals and being on the good side of one means nothing to the greater majority of Imperial authorities and the Lost Company would still be unable to send acolytes to Mars. What would they tell the Adeptus Mechanicus? Something like:

 

"Hey, we're renegade Space Wolves who befriended an Inquisitor who gave us a planet and said all was dandy now so could you teach us your darkest secrets and just ignore the fact that we aren't an official or legalized Chapter?"

 

Inquisitors don't have the authority to create Space Marine Chapters, they don't even have the authority to order around a single Space Marine.

 

You could have had them away with said inquisitor and several WP, RP and even an IP attached if he wished, they could get stuck in the warp for several centuries, thought lost and replaced. When they do return the WL is angry he has been replaced, leaves and the WP's etc. after spending so long with him decide feel honour bound to stay with him and help him (he could have saved their lived tones of times over the years and they feel indebted). The inquisitor also feels indebted and helps (possibly with giving or just helping them get a suitable planet.

 

Still doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Why would the Wolf Lord be angry? If he's been gone for centuries he knows the protocol, doesn't mean he would be cast out or not afforded all the honor he is due. We don't know how missing Companies are treated but I wouldn't be surprised if the Great Wolf simply subsumed his forces under the general guise of the Great Wolf's company and let them carry on until such a time as another Company is destroyed, nearly annihilated or lost at which point the Lord can resume an official spot on the Grand Annulus. The Space Wolves are ultimately pragmatic, a tizzy of hurt pride doesn't really justify barging off into the unknown with an Inquisitor and leave the Chapter behind for good.

 

As for recruiting, they could maintain a small force or they could some how find away to get aid into making a full chapter

 

From who and how? No matter what they still aren't an official Chapter and would either have to lie, cheat or steal to get equipment from other Imperial agencies and that flies in the face of the Space Wolves very character and still also assumes they manage not to become officially hunted as renegades which is eventually going to happen if they stick around in one place for too long. If there is one thing the Imperium absolutely won't stand if they discover it is renegade Astartes.

 

I gave two possibilities with about 5 seconds worth of thought and while I admit they need some padding out they could both be viable.

 

I'd say neither one is in any way viable and no amount of padding would change that. Not to mention you didn't address even half of the concerns about their very existence from being declared renegades (which one Inquisitor can't stop from happening) to the very nature of keeping in supply of ammunition.

 

personally I don't see that as any harder or easier.

 

Well perhaps spending more than 5 seconds considering how to actually go about a DIY project from either perspective would help with that. One the one hand you have near insurmountable problems to either circumvent or explain away and on the other you have absolutely none. Seems fairly obvious and stacked to me.

 

Vash, the Legion of TERRAN Space Wolves that were created before Fenris or Russ were discovered by the Emperor would beg to differ with your claim of only native Fenrisians being able to accept Russ' geneseed.

 

Actually not necessarily, the Terran Marines and the New Legion Marines were actually somewhat different. The original Legions founded on Terra and dispatched at the onset of the Great Crusade were creating using the genetic templates of the Primarchs the Emperor still had after the loss of the incubation capsules. However each Primarch changed dramatically when arriving at and growing up on their homeworlds. Sanguinius grew wings, Magnus became a bronze skinned giant and so on and so forth. As each Primarch was found their Legions established those worlds as their new homeworlds and began recruiting the New Legion marines from the native populace using fresh genetic material cultivated from the Primarchs after their discovery. In short the genetic material used to create the Terran marines would be different from the genetic material used to create the New Legion marines. The differences might be subtle to the point of being unnoticeable but would be there.

 

This is partly to account for why the New Legion marines emulated their Primarchs far more than the Old Legion or Terran Marines did. Like the Sons of Horus of the Luna Wolves, who had similar features and appearances of Horus himself, something the Old Legion Marines didn't really have. The New Legion Dark Angels shared the Lions suspicions and paranoia, the New Legion Death Guard were more obsessed with overcoming poison and the New Legion Emperor's Children more obsessed with perfection. There were differences not entirely accountable to the Marines homeworld and different cultures as much of those old ties are buried when the initiate is transformed into a Space Marine and even recalling their origins is difficult for most.

 

Finally the gene-seed used to create the Terran Marines did not likely include the Canis Helix which made its first fluff appearance in the Cup of the Wulfen tale when Russ took up command of the Legion and the first generation of Fenresian Space Wolves was created. It is possible that the Space Wolf gene-seed, minus the Canis Helix, could be used to create successors though with such a long mutual relation separating the two might now be impossible.

 

GM, it is not proof, certainly, but it is evidence. In the fluff, there exists evidence of non-Fenrisian Space Wolves, whereas there is no evidence that using non-Fenrisians causes a problem with the geneseed. If there was, wouldn't that be pretty damned odd? Out of all of the places (out of literally billions of planets) that the Chaos Gods could send Russ, they end up sending him to the only planet in the galaxy with the right kind of humans that can be compatable with his genetic information. That's too silly for even GW authors to try to pull off.

 

So the genetic instability causing the Wolf Brothers to be disbanded isn't evidence but Terran Marines who weren't even made from the same genetic stock are evidence? :D

 

Besides it is really not that implausible. Russ winds up on Fenris, new gene-seed taken from Russ incorporates the local Fenresian mutations and results in the Canis Helix, any non Fenresian attempting to be transformed from this genetic material is not going to work out properly. Makes perfect sense to me and doesn't so much have to do with chance as cause and effect.

 

Now if you could get your hands on the original gene-stock created by the Emperor from Russ' birth genetic template that might be another matter... but that's about as practical as loyalist traitor Legion DIY Chapter ideas.

[Khavos]

GM, it is not proof, certainly, but it is evidence. In the fluff, there exists evidence of non-Fenrisian Space Wolves, whereas there is no evidence that using non-Fenrisians causes a problem with the geneseed. If there was, wouldn't that be pretty damned odd? Out of all of the places (out of literally billions of planets) that the Chaos Gods could send Russ, they end up sending him to the only planet in the galaxy with the right kind of humans that can be compatable with his genetic information. That's too silly for even GW authors to try to pull off.

 

I wouldn't go that far, having read a lot of what they've written lately.

 

Either way, I get where the detractors are coming from: even if it's not an inherent genetic instability in the geneseed that requires Fenrisians, there's still the fact that the Space Wolves are the only founding Legion without a successful successor chapter to potentially be used as evidence that SW successors just don't happen. The SW are loyal, sure, but they don't play by the rules, so why would the High Lords of Terra run that risk when they could pop out some more perfectly bland Ultramarines successors?

 

I'm not demanding a successor chapter, as long as someone can assure me that the 12 listed Companies/Wolf Lords in the codex aren't the only ones out there, and that Lost Companies are viable in fluff terms.

[Khavos]

Every Lost Company is replaced however, meaning that while yes all of the Wolf Lords are present and have names that doesn't mean there won't also be any number of Lost Companies active at the same time. Plus you shouldn't let the existing Wolf Lords get in the way. My Great Company is that of Wolf Lord Silvar Stormblade and is called the Stormblade Great Company. He isn't one of the existing Lords and I haven't even covered his existence by unofficially killing off one of the Lords or making him a Lost Company. If I really felt like explaining it in the back story I'd probably say his was a Company lost in the warp for a century or two to return and find itself replaced and is simply waiting for a spot to open up before resuming an official place on the roster. I doubt the Space Wolves would mind too much.

 

Good info, thanks.

 

Dark Gray is still good for Space Wolves, and as for yellow I would not worry about it so much. Iyanden Darksun makes yellow a lot easier to paint. Even watered down you can get a solid yellow in just two coats, compared to a dozen or more with conventional GW paints. If you want it brighter add a thin coat of Golden Yellow to the Iyanden Darksun and there ya go, perfect background for Space Wolf pack markings or Company markings.

 

Oh, I can paint it, it's just a pain. I'm not so much worried about is as much as I'm just not a fan of the color. It would really pop against Charadon Granite, but something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I'd do red, but everyone who goes dark gray seems to go red, so.

[Vash113]

Oh, I can paint it, it's just a pain. I'm not so much worried about is as much as I'm just not a fan of the color. It would really pop against Charadon Granite, but something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I'd do red, but everyone who goes dark gray seems to go red, so.

 

You could always do a mix. The secondary colors on Space Wolves can be mixed quite heavily. For instance Blood Claws insignia are yellow and red, Grey Hunters red and black, Wolf Guard black and yellow, Long Fangs white and black and so on and so forth. Plus I also like to detail my marines armor with honor markings, campaign badges and personal totems in a variety of colors mostly using a mix of yellow, red and white. It adds up to a decent variety that mixes around the colors enough that no one generally overwhelms the other and allows for a very unique and interesting looking army.

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/Space%20Wolves/IMG_0704-1.jpg

 

For instance here's Blood Claws from two different packs. I made the insignia of each very similar but one is predominantly yellow while the other is red. Add to that a few red honor markings on the armor, black gun and red chainsword casings and the result is fairly balanced. You could cut out the yellow if you wish and focus more on black and white with red for smaller details.

 

The Space Wolf paint scheme is a very mutable thing that lends itself to many different looks and styles and this fits quite well with the Chapters background as each Lord has a different insignia and different traits and this can lend itself to a somewhat different scheme with each.

 

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m307/Vash113/Space%20Wolves/IMG_0705-1.jpg

 

Here's a different angle to show the Great Company insignia, there's only a little yellow and the rest is black and white and it doesn't feature anything too difficult to free-hand. Add in green frag grenades and I prefer brown or red for blade scabbards and there's a good mix of complimentary colors around the models.

 

If you haven't done so yet I would use the Space Marine Painter here on the B&C. The one I linked to includes wargear options so you can see how various weapon casing colors would look. Try it out and mess with schemes, find something you like and try it out on a test model and don't forget, we like to see pics!

 

EDIT:

 

Either way, I get where the detractors are coming from: even if it's not an inherent genetic instability in the geneseed that requires Fenrisians, there's still the fact that the Space Wolves are the only founding Legion without a successful successor chapter to potentially be used as evidence that SW successors just don't happen. The SW are loyal, sure, but they don't play by the rules, so why would the High Lords of Terra run that risk when they could pop out some more perfectly bland Ultramarines successors?

 

That sir, is one of the most sensible things I've heard all day. Have an ale! :wallbash:

 

I'm not demanding a successor chapter, as long as someone can assure me that the 12 listed Companies/Wolf Lords in the codex aren't the only ones out there, and that Lost Companies are viable in fluff terms.

 

First if you haven't seen it yet I'd direct you to look at the Space Wolves: A Comprehensive History.

 

Secondly I'll pull a few examples of Lost Companies for you:

 

Wolf Lord Gnyrll Bluetooth

-Commander of the Strike Cruiser the Wolf of Fenris, Wolf Lord Gnyrll Bluetooth fought Huron Blackheart in hand to hand combat on the bridge of the Strike Cruiser, unfortunately Gnyrll was no match for the chaos warlord and was torn apart by Huron's power claws and the Wolf of Fenris became one of Huron Blackheart's greatest prizes.

 

The traitors from the Wolf of Fenris are rumored to be the warriors now known as Skyrar's Dark Wolves operating as a renegade warband and technically also a Lost Company.

 

Wolf Lord Svengar the Red

-Wolf Lord Svengar and his Company were lost after sailing into a worm hole attempting to locate the Primarch Leman Russ. Instead the Company wound up at the far terminus of the galaxy beyond even the Ghoul Stars. Drawn in by a strange planetoid the Company eventually realised the inhabitants weren't human despite their appearances and despite fighting fiercely were lost.

 

Wolf Lord Sven Ironhand

-In 815.M41 Lord Ironhand led his Great Company into exile in the Eastern Fringe, forswearing his oaths. The Great Wolf Logan Grimnar declared Ironhand renegade and ordered a new Company be formed to replace the Ironhand Great Company. Sven Ironhand is only one of many Wolf Lords that have led their Companies away from the Fang and become 'Lost' but he is noted as the most recent to have done so.

 

There's a few examples of Lost Companies and various ways in which they can become 'Lost' Companies.

[Valerian]

GM, it is not proof, certainly, but it is evidence....If there was, wouldn't that be pretty damned odd? Out of all of the places (out of literally billions of planets) that the Chaos Gods could send Russ, they end up sending him to the only planet in the galaxy with the right kind of humans that can be compatable with his genetic information. That's too silly for even GW authors to try to pull off.

 

I wouldn't go that far, having read a lot of what they've written lately.

 

Yeah, I know that they would, too, unfortunately; I just said that for dramatic effect. The point stands though. unlike Vash's claims, GW has never once stated that there is a problem with using non-Fenrisians to make Space Wolves. Not once. If anyone thinks have have, then provide the direct quote, and none of this wild theorizing.

.

 

Either way, I get where the detractors are coming from: even if it's not an inherent genetic instability in the geneseed that requires Fenrisians, there's still the fact that the Space Wolves are the only founding Legion without a successful successor chapter to potentially be used as evidence that SW successors just don't happen. The SW are loyal, sure, but they don't play by the rules, so why would the High Lords of Terra run that risk when they could pop out some more perfectly bland Ultramarines successors?

 

Exactly right. The fluff in this regard is pretty simple:

 

1. Whereas the large Ultramarines Legion which avoided taking to many losses in the Heresy broke up into 24 new Chapters (including the Ultramarines Chapter and 23 others), during the Second founding, the Space Wolves Legion only broke into 2, the Space Wolves and Wolf Brothers Chapters, because the Legion was small to begin with, suffered losses during Sacking of Prospero and chasing Abaddon into Eye of Terror.

 

2. Over the years the Adeptus Mechanicus who oversees the tithes and monitors the purity of geneseed reports to the High Lords, recommends Ultramarines geneseed for use in later foundings because it is exceptionally pure. This is how greater than half of the 1,000 Chapters come from UM stock.

 

3. The geneseed of Leman Russ is genetically unstable. Space Wolves sometimes suffer from the Curse of the Wulfen. Legend has it that an entire Great Company suffered from the Curse and disappeared into the Eye of Terror. Adeptus Mechanicus sees the problem inherent in our geneseed and the Canis Helix and recommends against ever using Russ' material for any Foundings of any Chapters ever.

 

4. Something happens to the Wolf Brothers Chapter that was created when the old Legion split. Some believe that they suffered from even more genetic instability than the Space Wolves already do. I haven't read it myself, but Brother Ramses provided a quote from the 13th Company IA article that states that the Wolf Brothers were rumored to have been disbanded. An article from 3rd Edition says that they chased Eldar into the webway and disappeared forever in M37. Either way, that Chapter was "ill-fated" and is forever gone.

 

5. Thus with the Wolf Brothers now gone, and no other successor Chapters ever created because the legacy of Russ is too dangerous to use beyond the First Founding Chapter that remains, you ought to go with a Lost Company; a group that is unwilling or just unable to rejoin its Brothers on Fenris.

 

V

[Grimtooth]

Actually not necessarily, the Terran Marines and the New Legion Marines were actually somewhat different. The original Legions founded on Terra and dispatched at the onset of the Great Crusade were creating using the genetic templates of the Primarchs the Emperor still had after the loss of the incubation capsules. However each Primarch changed dramatically when arriving at and growing up on their homeworlds. Sanguinius grew wings, Magnus became a bronze skinned giant and so on and so forth. As each Primarch was found their Legions established those worlds as their new homeworlds and began recruiting the New Legion marines from the native populace using fresh genetic material cultivated from the Primarchs after their discovery. In short the genetic material used to create the Terran marines would be different from the genetic material used to create the New Legion marines. The differences might be subtle to the point of being unnoticeable but would be there.

 

This is partly to account for why the New Legion marines emulated their Primarchs far more than the Old Legion or Terran Marines did. Like the Sons of Horus of the Luna Wolves, who had similar features and appearances of Horus himself, something the Old Legion Marines didn't really have. The New Legion Dark Angels shared the Lions suspicions and paranoia, the New Legion Death Guard were more obsessed with overcoming poison and the New Legion Emperor's Children more obsessed with perfection. There were differences not entirely accountable to the Marines homeworld and different cultures as much of those old ties are buried when the initiate is transformed into a Space Marine and even recalling their origins is difficult for most.

 

Finally the gene-seed used to create the Terran Marines did not likely include the Canis Helix which made its first fluff appearance in the Cup of the Wulfen tale when Russ took up command of the Legion and the first generation of Fenresian Space Wolves was created. It is possible that the Space Wolf gene-seed, minus the Canis Helix, could be used to create successors though with such a long mutual relation separating the two might now be impossible.

 

First of all, most of the stuff you put up just reeks of fanboi fiction versus what is actually on paper for the Space Wolves. No offense intended, but please put up some source material versus what just seems to be your opinion.

 

Case in point, Codex SW, pg 8 THE GREAT CRUSADE:

 

"From the residue genetic helices of the Primarchs the Emperor created twenty Space Marine Legions, each utilizing the genetic material derived from one of the Primarchs. Most of the implants were common in type and function to all twenty Legions, but there were subtle variances in the genetic structure due to their different origins. Thus the warriors of the twenty Space Marine Legions echoed to some degree the particular strengths and powers of the Primarch whose genes were used to develop their own implants"

 

Here we have canon that states before any of the Primarchs were found, the Legions that were created from them, exhibited their particular Primarchs traits.

 

Codex BA, pg 10 THE COMING OF SANGUINOUS:

 

"Unable to destroy the Primarchs because of the powerful protections laid on them by the Emperor, the daemonic powers nonetheless did their best to alter and mold the Emperor's work to their own ends. Thus it was that even the best of the Emperor's creations became corrupted at the outset."

 

"The infant Primarch was found by one of the wandering tribes of humans who called themselves the Folk of Pure Blood, or simply the Blood. The young Sanguinous' life almost came to an end then and there, for the touch of Chaos has changed him. Tiny vestigial wings, like those of an angel, emerged from his back."

 

Canon that Sanguinous grew wings due to Chaos, not by landing on Baal Secundus.

 

Not sure where you are getting Magnus being a bronze skinned giant. He is known as Magnus the Red aka the Crimson King. Reference Index Astartes IV.

 

Codex SW, pg9 THE GREAT CRUSADE

 

"The Primarch accepted his first ever defeat with a smile and a handshake, and soon after the duel the Emperor bequeathed unto Russ leadership of the Space Marine Legion that bore his genes."

 

Again canon pointing out that the Legion given to Russ already bore his genes.

 

Codex SW, pg 10 THE TEST OF MORKAI:

 

"The Canis Helix is necessary, however, as without this essential part of Leman Russ's heritage, the other gene helices cannot be implanted at all."

 

Clear evidence that the Canis Helix was introduced to the Legion before Russ was ever found because they would not have been able to have been implanted "at all" with any other gene helices of Russ' heritage if they had not first been given the Canis Helix. Also clearly the Canis Helix is required in ALL of the attempts at creating Space Wolves as the other gene helices of Russ' heritage cannot be implanted "at all".

 

Codex SW, pg 12 THE FORGING OF A LEGEND

 

"As incredible as it may sound, Space Wolves have uncanny abilities above and beyond even the superhuman Space Marines of other Chapters. Due to peculiarities of Russ' heritage,......"

 

Again, Russ' heritage being brought up.

[Valerian]

Exactly Brother Ramses (see, we don't always disagree). There is nothing that I am aware of that says not being Fenrisian is an issue, and quite a bit to indicate that it would not. Thanks much for at least providing the overwhelming evidence in support of those original Terran Wolves having the same genetic legacy of latter Fenrisian Wolves.

 

Vash, your Comprehensive history is an exceptional piece of work; well done. However, it really could use the source citations after each paragraph or section. Also, if something is your assumption, interpretation, opinion or preference, you should state it and make it clear to the reader. Otherwise you might convince a new reader that something is rather than it might be.

 

V

[Khavos]

You could always do a mix.

 

I could...or I could just not do yellow. :D And if any purists give me guff, I'll just explain that my dudes had a beer with some eloquent gents from Alpha Legion and have started rethinking the whole undying loyalty to the Imperium thing, and decided they wanted some damn Fenris Grey pauldrons. :P

 

If you haven't done so yet I would use the Space Marine Painter here on the B&C. The one I linked to includes wargear options so you can see how various weapon casing colors would look. Try it out and mess with schemes, find something you like and try it out on a test model and don't forget, we like to see pics!

 

Yeah, I use that. Can't get the newest version to work for some reason. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. I also use the Army Painter in DoW II, which isn't bad, though a little inaccurate. I'm satisfied with my scheme, though it's probably not Space Wolfey enough, aside from the gray.

 

Edit: Also, while I've got you guys here, if any of you are playing non-successor non-Space Wolves marines using the SW codex, I'd be interested to hear your DIY fluff as to why/how your chapter uses the rather specifically Space Wolves stuff.

[Jonny]

Actually no, it doesn't fit with the Codex material, disappearing after traitors is not really "ill-fated," not by a long shot and "in later times" means nothing and proves nothing. It's the grammatical equivalent of "I could care less" which tells us nothing, except that you could care less but that could be everything from 1% of caring to 100%, all it tells us is that you can't possibly care nothing which is generally what such statements are trying to get across and "in later times" is no different for it could mean anything from a few years later to a few thousand years later and doesn't help prove the point.

 

Actually yes

 

1st I'm just going to ignore "I could care less" as it's an Americanism that wouldn't make sense if you said it over here (It's "couldn't" over here, your one would be grammatically incorrect (for the reasons you gave as it's non specific to what it means))

2nd in later times could indeed be 1 year but as it was "in later times" after the Wolfbrothers it would still be at best 1 (put measurment of time of your chioce) after what happened to them.

 

That's just being obstreperous, the base genome of the human is going to have a huge impact on whether the marine can become an astartes or not. The Canis Helix is going to be a critical part of that and since genetic instability has only effected the one successor ever attempted with the Space Wolf gene-seed and not the recruits from Fenris then it logically follows that the genetic stability of the Space Wolf gene-seed is tied to the Fenresians themselves. Astartes can only be created from a very narrow window of compatibility, when the baseline genetic pool contains such a significant genetic trait it is going to have an invariable impact on the Chapter. Do you really mean to tell me the Canis Helix and genetic traits of the Fenresian people are not related and tied together? Well you might, but it would still be implausible.

 

So it doesn't say that? This is your own fluff based on how you think it should work? Then it's pointless, either give sources or stop pretending your own fluff is canon. We are debating the actual fluff, so please start giving some (page numbers are fine).

 

Yea how come? I just see old fluff being old fluff and since the subject is all old fluff its hardly unanticipated or a major difficulty. However you cut it the Wolf Brothers are an ill-fated Chapter, with dark rumors of genetic instability and eventual disappearance/destruction and the High Lords have not divided the Space Wolves or used their gene-seed since the 2nd Founding (if that). Regardless the result is: no Space Wolf successors.

 

Well actually it says that the high Lords never split them again, they could become split by different means and the highlords accepted it. Technically it would keep with the current fluff while allowing someone to create their own successor chapter.

 

Actually... not really. Imagination can cover some things but unfortunately that won't stand up to scrutiny. Not only are the Space Wolves as a whole very distrustful of Inquisitors in general, but they outright fire on any Inquisition vessel that comes into Fenresian space without permission. Not to mention that Inquisitors are all individuals and being on the good side of one means nothing to the greater majority of Imperial authorities and the Lost Company would still be unable to send acolytes to Mars. What would they tell the Adeptus Mechanicus? Something like:

 

"Hey, we're renegade Space Wolves who befriended an Inquisitor who gave us a planet and said all was dandy now so could you teach us your darkest secrets and just ignore the fact that we aren't an official or legalized Chapter?"

 

Inquisitors don't have the authority to create Space Marine Chapters, they don't even have the authority to order around a single Space Marine.

 

They do however have the authority to help one start a chapter. I never said they ordered the space wolves, I said the WL came close to a particular inquisitor nothing about the inquisitor being above them. All the inquisitor would have to do is either send a requisition that this company be made into a chapter which is as simple as writing "against all odds and thought of possibility the high lords have accepted his proposition"... wow, hard... almost had a sweat there...

 

Still doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Why would the Wolf Lord be angry? If he's been gone for centuries he knows the protocol, doesn't mean he would be cast out or not afforded all the honor he is due. We don't know how missing Companies are treated but I wouldn't be surprised if the Great Wolf simply subsumed his forces under the general guise of the Great Wolf's company and let them carry on until such a time as another Company is destroyed, nearly annihilated or lost at which point the Lord can resume an official spot on the Grand Annulus. The Space Wolves are ultimately pragmatic, a tizzy of hurt pride doesn't really justify barging off into the unknown with an Inquisitor and leave the Chapter behind for good.

 

That seems more improbable than mine... You would reorganise the Space Wolf company into thirteen companies again (where would they stay? each company has its own area of the Fang, would they take the 13th Companies area? I doubt that would go down well). Then you claim how temporary, but it could be centuries before losing a company to the point they wouldn't select a member of their own Wolf Guard over an outsider of their company (even the Great Wolf couldn't predict that). I doubt restructuring like that would have anything but a momentous effect on the Chapter, so much so I'd argue it interferes with the actual fluff to much.

 

And finally why would this WL not chose to leave over what I see as being at best merged with another company and possibly being told he would be outranked by the current WL. You ask why would the WL be angry, that question is irrelevant as it's character motivation and not a fluff based problem. Just because you're not satisfied that I haven't write a story the length of a book describing the turmoil that the WL goes through and his motivations for his final decisions doesn't mean that it goes against current fluff. You not liking character motivation is not an argument against someone's successor chapter, all it means is they need to take the time to write it better.

 

From who and how? No matter what they still aren't an official Chapter and would either have to lie, cheat or steal to get equipment from other Imperial agencies and that flies in the face of the Space Wolves very character and still also assumes they manage not to become officially hunted as renegades which is eventually going to happen if they stick around in one place for too long. If there is one thing the Imperium absolutely won't stand if they discover it is renegade Astartes.

 

As I said a good bit of personal fluff can solve that, they could have been accepted against all possibilities. All it takes is a moment to sit and think and you could make fluff for how got them without stealing. Heck the Great Wolf could have seen that after a company returned that it may cause problems and after WL's refusing to merge he may have helped them set up their own chapter.

 

I'd say neither one is in any way viable and no amount of padding would change that. Not to mention you didn't address even half of the concerns about their very existence from being declared renegades (which one Inquisitor can't stop from happening) to the very nature of keeping in supply of ammunition.

 

I'd say both still are, they only big problems the came against was your interpretations rather than actually fluff and since it is only actual fluff that matters when creating your own fluff they're still fine.

 

Well perhaps spending more than 5 seconds considering how to actually go about a DIY project from either perspective would help with that. One the one hand you have near insurmountable problems to either circumvent or explain away and on the other you have absolutely none. Seems fairly obvious and stacked to me.

 

honestly if you spent half as much time creating reasons they could over reasons they couldn't you'd probably have hundreds of way's they could by now. Instead you use your own interpretations of fluff equally with actual fluff to give pointless reasons which basically amounts to "but I don't like it! *sad face*". How much you like it or not is irrelevant (as no matter how good at fluff someone is their will always be people who don't like it), you need actual fluff reasons why these problems are impossible to find a solution to.

 

Regards

Jonny

[jmurph]

Your money, your minis, do what you want. Make an army of green, all girl Space Wolves if you want. As long as it looks good, only uptight obsessives will get worked up. :)

 

Lost companies, Chaos taint, non-SW chapters emulating Leman Russ as a spiritual primarch, and crusade armies are all viable ways to explain your force. It's a big universe, and the wolves are at the fringe of the Eye, so alot can happen. Heck, maybe the SWs even did a super secret successor force- Russ wasn't known for volunteering info to the bureaucrats, after all. Remember that the force you field is very small compared to even a company, so you can justify alot- who is going to even notice 50 marines and a few vehicles in a space barge or two?

[Allerka]

an army of green, all girl Space Wolves

Hah, now you've got me thinking about an army of Orion slave girl Marines.

 

Mmm, Orion slave girl Marines... :)

[Khavos]

So, just to revisit this, as far as I can tell there hasn't really been a consensus reached as to whether or not Space Wolves' geneseed could only be used with humans from Fenris, correct?

 

Let's say for a moment that that is the case. We have at least one (potential) example of geneseed being altered in the Lamenters, who are reputed to have figured out a way to get rid of the Black Rage and Red Thirst from Blood Angels' geneseed.

 

We also have examples - if the WH40K Lexicanum site is correct, anyway - of several chapters without designated recruiting worlds: "Entirely fleet-based chapters do not possess worlds, and instead recruit from any convenient and promising worlds," is how that particular resource puts it.

 

Where I'm going with this is pretty obvious, but I'll continue anyway. It looks at least theoretically possible - and if Russ' geneseed isn't restricted to humans from Fenris, I'd say it's entirely possible - for a Lost Company to potentially recruit. Having to rely entirely on geneseed that they can yank out of the fallen still ultimately dooms them, of course, but they'd be able to stretch that doom out for several centuries.

 

I may be wrong, but I'm not sure lacking a fresh supply of equipment would be as big an issue as it's made out. Aren't most of what the Space Marines use relics to begin with?

 

If all of the above is granted, the only real issue I'm having with a Lost Company's ultimately doomed attempt to sustain itself is where the hell they'd continue to get Thunderwolves and Fenrisian wolves from. Only thing I could think of there would be dropping them on a feral world uninhabited by humans and hoping they breed.

[Grey Mage]

The 13nth company has fenrisian wolves.... I dont see why anyone else wouldnt.

[Wysten]

I imagine that the imperium in general would not know enough about the space wolves structure enough to know about which company is a lost company and which one is not. So a lost company could quite easily pass off as Chapter space wolves chapter as far as getting around is concerned, they could fairly easily respond to calls and considering the general elusiveness of space marines, it's pretty difficult to catch them out on it. (After all, I find it hard that Logan would flat announce their leaving to anyone outside his own fellows. While they are not under his control, he will probably let them potter around until they are dealt with by another chapter, he needs to deal with them for being destuctive on his watch, or they come back a shadow of their former self when their leader is killed and is absorbed into an existing company.)

 

Though I would imagine that Space Wolves in the fluff are a lot more sturdy then they are on the table top, hence it may be many years before they are forced to return, or start doing rogue recuiting which probably won't be as effective considering how badly the gene reacts to people native on their planet. Never mind a splinter fleet. Plus as far as equipment is concerned, the Flesh Tearers suffer much the same problem, they simply don't take the time to properly maintain their own equipment, just basic functional will have to do until they are killed off or they swallow their pride and return to base, or turn trator.

[Jonny]

Personally I see the thought that Fenrisians genes being significant pre elevation to Space Wolf as being relavent at best as being personal interpritation of fluff. I have yet to see anything written that couldn't be taken as anything else.

 

However in debating it's ability as a valid interpretation of the fluff that is a different thing all together, one counts if you want to make your own fluff and the other only counts if you agree with the interpretation (however I also disagree that the proposed interpretation does fit with the fluff, it could but it needs a lot more things addressed imo).

 

As for Thunderwolves and Fenrisian Wolves, there is nothing to say the company didn't have them to begin with. There is also nothing to sugest that they don't breed easily (especially Fenrisian wolves since as stated the 13th company still have them).

 

Regards

Jonny

[Khavos]

Personally I see the thought that Fenrisians genes being significant pre elevation to Space Wolf as being relavent at best as being personal interpritation of fluff. I have yet to see anything written that couldn't be taken as anything else.

 

I hate to resurrect this, but I was flipping through the codex again when something caught my eye.

 

It mentions that the Canis Helix - which is what everyone seems to use to support the "only Fenrisians can handle Russ' geneseed" argument - isn't inherent to Fenrisians, but actually implanted in aspirants when they first drink from the Cup of Wulfen. So it's the Canis Helix which makes the geneseed implantation possible, and the Canis Helix can, as far as I can tell, be put into anybody.

 

So, a company could get lost, go more or less rogue, and start recruiting dandies from Civilizationville rather than tribal Vikings from Fenris without ill effect, I believe.

[Grimtooth]

Personally I see the thought that Fenrisians genes being significant pre elevation to Space Wolf as being relavent at best as being personal interpritation of fluff. I have yet to see anything written that couldn't be taken as anything else.

 

I hate to resurrect this, but I was flipping through the codex again when something caught my eye.

 

It mentions that the Canis Helix - which is what everyone seems to use to support the "only Fenrisians can handle Russ' geneseed" argument - isn't inherent to Fenrisians, but actually implanted in aspirants when they first drink from the Cup of Wulfen. So it's the Canis Helix which makes the geneseed implantation possible, and the Canis Helix can, as far as I can tell, be put into anybody.

 

So, a company could get lost, go more or less rogue, and start recruiting dandies from Civilizationville rather than tribal Vikings from Fenris without ill effect, I believe.

 

Space Wolves with monocles?

[Khavos]

Space Wolves with monocles?

 

And top hats.

 

Best (dressed) Lost Company ever.

 

Nah, I'd basically probably just go with a different planet to make them a little more Germanic as opposed to Norse. A little more Wotan, a little less Odin.