So what's the deal with successors?

[InquisitorHayn]

If someone should say "Dude, those aren't Space Wolves. No SW codex for you.", hit him with your ale tankard and kick him in the jimmie. - Crimson Devil

 

Stolen for Sig of the Day.

[Wysten]

Personally I see the thought that Fenrisians genes being significant pre elevation to Space Wolf as being relavent at best as being personal interpritation of fluff. I have yet to see anything written that couldn't be taken as anything else.

 

I hate to resurrect this, but I was flipping through the codex again when something caught my eye.

 

It mentions that the Canis Helix - which is what everyone seems to use to support the "only Fenrisians can handle Russ' geneseed" argument - isn't inherent to Fenrisians, but actually implanted in aspirants when they first drink from the Cup of Wulfen. So it's the Canis Helix which makes the geneseed implantation possible, and the Canis Helix can, as far as I can tell, be put into anybody.

 

So, a company could get lost, go more or less rogue, and start recruiting dandies from Civilizationville rather than tribal Vikings from Fenris without ill effect, I believe.

 

Aye, I would say that the Wolf Brothers are proof that you could successfully breed space wolves away from their home planet. 7,000 imperial years is a very solid time period for a chapter to be oprational after all. Just I imagine the only thing stopping them is the lack of successors, hence they can't legally do so due to outside influences. Breeding space wolves off planet would be breaking an age old tradition of their direct ancesters, though lost companys may or may not chose to follow it.

 

I feel it has largely to do with the hardyness of the person who takes it in. It's a grueling transformation, the real question is whether they can afford to waste their previous geneseed on city dwellers who may lack the hardyness of your typical Fenrisians, who has to prove themselves from birth that they are worthy of being alive. Though that is my throughts.

[Grimtooth]

The Canis Helix, and in retrospect, the SW geneseed is extremely deadly. The codex mentions it accounting for "millions" of aspirant lives.

 

So, the hardiness of the Fenrisian population would be a plus for the attempt of transformation into a Space Wolf but not something that would be exclusive to Fenris. It would be a trait of any death world populace.

 

Now what might be a difference in a Lost Company structure due to off world recruiting would be how the Space Wolves are instilled in Fenrisian myth and culture and how it would not be in a different culture. There could be a similarity in warrior caste society but it might be far different then what the doctrine the Space Wolves were founded on by Russ.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I am not aware of alternate homeworld given for the Wolf Brothers, in which case there would be no evidence to support they were bred off-Fenris

 

They may have been fleet-based.

 

I suspect that the whole thing was a scam by Russ whereby a single GC was re-branded as the Wolf Brothers to get Papa Smurf off his back.

 

This would mean that they still recruited from Fenris - like every other GC

[kitsune106]

as for the canis helix, what exactly is that?

 

as for the wolf brothers, maybe the canis helix as said to instill a beast inside, maybe a warrior's lifestyle is needed to do space wolves?

 

Although, i did have an idea. In teh 5th codex, it does say that hte space wolves have their own space ship dock, and old space ships. and that they don't hold to the codex astratres. and the space wolves do strike me as not revealing all they have. so what if they have some spaceships, the size of eldar craft worlds, that they have filled with fenriain life.... and creatures, and put into space, as a sort of floating company world, to recruit from, and keep a hidden reserve? or send such a company /.shi pinto a far sector to go hunt for leman russ? the great hunts still continue.

 

 

As for your thing... maybe your chapter is a great hunt, or splinter of a great hunt that has stumbled on something, or went off with a shapce ship adn supply of gene seed, or a floating chapter ship and is still looking for leman russ. to keep things safe for thier brothers back home, they might be not using wolf colors, and are absent from teh records.

[Wysten]

I am not aware of alternate homeworld given for the Wolf Brothers, in which case there would be no evidence to support they were bred off-Fenris

 

They may have been fleet-based.

 

I suspect that the whole thing was a scam by Russ whereby a single GC was re-branded as the Wolf Brothers to get Papa Smurf off his back.

 

This would mean that they still recruited from Fenris - like every other GC

Even if they were fleet based, they need to recuit from places. This, conbinued with the fact that the devides in chapters were meant to limit a legions ability. Which means that they would be assigned a recruiting ground. No two chapters have ever recuited from the same planet aside from the possbilty of it being a common stopping point for fleet chapters, same with Space Marine Chapters being forbiddion to recuit from any areas designated for recruitment for the Imperial Guard.

 

This means that the recuits came somewhere other then Feris. While Space Wolves don't follow the book closely, two chapters opprating closely together, such as recuiting from the same planet is extremely frowned upon. Since there is not fluff to state otherwise, it's logical to accept that they don't recuit from Feris as it is basic space marine rules that even the space wolves were forced to relent to (They don't follow the tactics and organisation of the codex, but they were forced like all space marines to adapt to the new restrictions, less face the wraith of the full navy and start another cival war). Again, while the wolf gene seed is easpically dangerous to the reciever, theres nothing that says only those on Ferus can recieve it. Though obivously it helps if there is a supply of applicants are of a hardy standard.

 

 

Anything else is just opinon, as there is little information to work with.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I am not aware of alternate homeworld given for the Wolf Brothers, in which case there would be no evidence to support they were bred off-Fenris

 

They may have been fleet-based.

 

I suspect that the whole thing was a scam by Russ whereby a single GC was re-branded as the Wolf Brothers to get Papa Smurf off his back.

 

This would mean that they still recruited from Fenris - like every other GC

Even if they were fleet based, they need to recuit from places. This, conbinued with the fact that the devides in chapters were meant to limit a legions ability. Which means that they would be assigned a recruiting ground. No two chapters have ever recuited from the same planet aside from the possbilty of it being a common stopping point for fleet chapters, same with Space Marine Chapters being forbiddion to recuit from any areas designated for recruitment for the Imperial Guard.

 

This means that the recuits came somewhere other then Feris. While Space Wolves don't follow the book closely, two chapters opprating closely together, such as recuiting from the same planet is extremely frowned upon. Since there is not fluff to state otherwise, it's logical to accept that they don't recuit from Feris as it is basic space marine rules that even the space wolves were forced to relent to (They don't follow the tactics and organisation of the codex, but they were forced like all space marines to adapt to the new restrictions, less face the wraith of the full navy and start another cival war). Again, while the wolf gene seed is easpically dangerous to the reciever, theres nothing that says only those on Ferus can recieve it. Though obivously it helps if there is a supply of applicants are of a hardy standard.

 

 

Anything else is just opinon, as there is little information to work with.

 

Not quite, little brother.

 

Chapters from the same Legion nearly always recruited from the same areas pre-reform. A Legion was made up of many Chapters, also called Great Companies, and they were generally made up of the survivors of the original recruits from Earth augmented by recruits from the world upon which the Primarch was discovered.

 

Aside from that, perhaps my wording wasn't clear enough or you took the fleet=based comment separate from the rest of my post.

 

I'm suggesting that the WBs were not really a separate chapter á la Codex Astartes, but remained an integral part of the VI Legion and a Chapter in the pre-reform sense, i.e. another name for a GC. They still recruited, therefore, from Fenris along with the rest of the SW. After all, the planet sustained a full (if small) Legion prior to the reforms so it's not as if they wouldn't be enough recruits to go around. Being fleet-based would help disguise this from Pappa Smurf and his interfering team of busy-bodies.

 

As you say - it's all pure conjecture.

[craponastik]

Actually... not really. Imagination can cover some things but unfortunately that won't stand up to scrutiny. Not only are the Space Wolves as a whole very distrustful of Inquisitors in general, but they outright fire on any Inquisition vessel that comes into Fenresian space without permission. Not to mention that Inquisitors are all individuals and being on the good side of one means nothing to the greater majority of Imperial authorities and the Lost Company would still be unable to send acolytes to Mars. What would they tell the Adeptus Mechanicus? Something like:

 

"Hey, we're renegade Space Wolves who befriended an Inquisitor who gave us a planet and said all was dandy now so could you teach us your darkest secrets and just ignore the fact that we aren't an official or legalized Chapter?"

 

Inquisitors don't have the authority to create Space Marine Chapters, they don't even have the authority to order around a single Space Marine.

 

When did this happen? It was my understanding that they were mistrustful of the Administratum, not the Inquisition. In fact there have been several accounts in the codex and in the first SW Omnibus where the SW have either aided or requested aid from the Inquisition.

[Grey Mage]

The first war for Armageddon involved inquisitors as well as the administratum, and of course theirs the ties of the ordo hereticus to the church, wich does not get along with the SWs at all.

 

Its not the entirety of the inquisition by any means....

[clanfield]

on the point of not recruiting from a guard world id point to the imperial fist who recruit from necromundia as do the necromudian guard regiments

 

i dont think lost companys do recruit i think they dwindle in scale maybe adding auxilia troops to support them selves in larger actions though this isnt supported by a text.

[Wysten]

I am not aware of alternate homeworld given for the Wolf Brothers, in which case there would be no evidence to support they were bred off-Fenris

 

They may have been fleet-based.

 

I suspect that the whole thing was a scam by Russ whereby a single GC was re-branded as the Wolf Brothers to get Papa Smurf off his back.

 

This would mean that they still recruited from Fenris - like every other GC

Even if they were fleet based, they need to recuit from places. This, conbinued with the fact that the devides in chapters were meant to limit a legions ability. Which means that they would be assigned a recruiting ground. No two chapters have ever recuited from the same planet aside from the possbilty of it being a common stopping point for fleet chapters, same with Space Marine Chapters being forbiddion to recuit from any areas designated for recruitment for the Imperial Guard.

 

This means that the recuits came somewhere other then Feris. While Space Wolves don't follow the book closely, two chapters opprating closely together, such as recuiting from the same planet is extremely frowned upon. Since there is not fluff to state otherwise, it's logical to accept that they don't recuit from Feris as it is basic space marine rules that even the space wolves were forced to relent to (They don't follow the tactics and organisation of the codex, but they were forced like all space marines to adapt to the new restrictions, less face the wraith of the full navy and start another cival war). Again, while the wolf gene seed is easpically dangerous to the reciever, theres nothing that says only those on Ferus can recieve it. Though obivously it helps if there is a supply of applicants are of a hardy standard.

 

 

Anything else is just opinon, as there is little information to work with.

 

Not quite, little brother.

 

Chapters from the same Legion nearly always recruited from the same areas pre-reform. A Legion was made up of many Chapters, also called Great Companies, and they were generally made up of the survivors of the original recruits from Earth augmented by recruits from the world upon which the Primarch was discovered.

 

Aside from that, perhaps my wording wasn't clear enough or you took the fleet=based comment separate from the rest of my post.

 

I'm suggesting that the WBs were not really a separate chapter á la Codex Astartes, but remained an integral part of the VI Legion and a Chapter in the pre-reform sense, i.e. another name for a GC. They still recruited, therefore, from Fenris along with the rest of the SW. After all, the planet sustained a full (if small) Legion prior to the reforms so it's not as if they wouldn't be enough recruits to go around. Being fleet-based would help disguise this from Pappa Smurf and his interfering team of busy-bodies.

 

As you say - it's all pure conjecture.

Sorry for taking so long and if you found my previous post bothering in the slightest, I've just been chilling out in prep for Halo Reach.

 

Generally I understand what you are saying, just when there is a lack of evidence to indicate otherwise I tend to think that the chapter is seperate for all purposes, though chances are they maintain communication openly. Though that being said it's definately palsable that they just spilt the Wolves in two and had 24/25 great companies(Depends whether the wolf brothers filled the 25th spot, as it's also their 13th company), admit under two different leaders to prevent one ever having ownership. Just considering how rigid the imperium is and how they dealt with Dorn over it, almost starting another war, it seems the less plasiable of the two ideas.

 

That being said, the fluff is just packaging for the game. I seriously want to make my blood claws fly the speeders. Since you don't need accuacy with homing systems and a heavy flamer. XD

[Valerian]

on the point of not recruiting from a guard world id point to the imperial fist who recruit from necromundia as do the necromudian guard regiments

 

i dont think lost companys do recruit i think they dwindle in scale maybe adding auxilia troops to support them selves in larger actions though this isnt supported by a text.

 

Here is some official text for you.

 

From the "Lone Wolves" article of US White Dwarf 245 (June 2000):

 

It appears that in some cases a Wolf Lord and his Great Company separate from the main body of the Chapter, undertaking their own quests and missions for a variety of reasons. The case of Jotun Bearclaw, for example, indicates that his men had elected not to return to Fenris because of the long journey time through warp space, and presumably the temporal displacement they would suffer on arrival (potentially several years over such a distance). I suspect that there is a more hidden motive behind the Company's actions, one which he chose not to share with the Kimmerians. This may be related to the Space Wolves' ancient quest to find their lost Primarch.

 

As to the long term viability of these 'lost companies' it is difficult to say. Given sufficient geneseed and technical competence it is entirely possible for such a company to maintain its strength over a protracted period, inducting and training new recruits in the same way as a normal Chapter. Less well-supplied companies might have to resort to training ordinary humans to fill their ranks or face the prospect of gradually dwindling in numbers until the company ceases to exist.

 

Valerian

[Allerka]

The Canis Helix, and in retrospect, the SW geneseed is extremely deadly. The codex mentions it accounting for "millions" of aspirant lives.

 

So, the hardiness of the Fenrisian population would be a plus for the attempt of transformation into a Space Wolf but not something that would be exclusive to Fenris. It would be a trait of any death world populace.

Not necessarily. A Thousand Sons implies the original colonists of Fenris modified their own genetics and that of the animals they brought with them (i.e. the wolves) to have any chance of surviving on Fenris. While it's possible, it seems unlikely the humans on other death worlds went through similar processes (as it's noted Fenris is exceptionally harsh, even for a death world).

 

In regards to all this and the canis helix, though, I get the feeling we'll get more explanation in Prospero Burns.

[Valerian]

The Canis Helix, and in retrospect, the SW geneseed is extremely deadly. The codex mentions it accounting for "millions" of aspirant lives.

 

So, the hardiness of the Fenrisian population would be a plus for the attempt of transformation into a Space Wolf but not something that would be exclusive to Fenris. It would be a trait of any death world populace.

Not necessarily. A Thousand Sons implies the original colonists of Fenris modified their own genetics and that of the animals they brought with them (i.e. the wolves) to have any chance of surviving on Fenris. While it's possible, it seems unlikely the humans on other death worlds went through similar processes (as it's noted Fenris is exceptionally harsh, even for a death world).

 

In regards to all this and the canis helix, though, I get the feeling we'll get more explanation in Prospero Burns.

 

The Canis Helix, however, is an additional and unique part of Russ' genetic code, which is passed on to the Space Wolves as a significant and critical part of his genetic legacy. Don't forget that Russ was not a native Fenrisian, so whatever original Colonists to Fenris may or may not have done to their own genetic code would have no effect on Russ or his gene-seed.

 

Some of us have stated this several times, but all actual evidence in the fluff is that a non-Fenrisian who is tough enough, and compatible can be made into a Son of Russ. The initiation process is tough for all candidates, and many of them die in the process, regardless of their homeworld.

 

Also, Black Library books rot your brain; it is unlikely that Prospero Burns will provide anything of value...{half lighthearted jest, but mostly true}.

 

V

[slmellon]

After reading all of this, I am slightly perplexed at all of it. Maybe it is that I am married with children and this is my "Hobby," but I don't see what all the fuss is about. Build some models, paint them, and play.

 

You want fluff...

 

1. Seeing as you don't have to be dead to have the progenoid harvested (per multiple sources) you could take the mature glands from the boys, replace them with immature ones, and put the mature ones in recruits. This solves the how to get your numbers up issue.

 

2. The Canix Helix is key, not the aspirant.

 

3. Fleet based sounds good, no need for a home world

 

4. Everyone is a techmarine in training

 

5. To the victor goes the spoils...resupply issues solved

 

 

Maybe I am not as into it as I should be, but to have three pages of discussion over whether or not XY an Z is canon (especially when canon changes with EVERY new codex with this company) and how one should go about DIYing a SW army is a little much

 

Or maybe I'm right on the money

[Lord Ragnarok]

Vash, the Legion of TERRAN Space Wolves that were created before Fenris or Russ were discovered by the Emperor would beg to differ with your claim of only native Fenrisians being able to accept Russ' geneseed.

Im not saying I agree or disagree- as Im rather out of it- but I will say this:

 

The Emperor could do things with gene-seed that no one else can even dream of. If he wanted to turn a watermelon into a full fledged imperial fist then I have every confidence he could do it.

 

So Terran Marines isnt nessecairily a valid argument.

 

GM, it is not proof, certainly, but it is evidence. In the fluff, there exists evidence of non-Fenrisian Space Wolves, whereas there is no evidence that using non-Fenrisians causes a problem with the geneseed. If there was, wouldn't that be pretty damned odd? Out of all of the places (out of literally billions of planets) that the Chaos Gods could send Russ, they end up sending him to the only planet in the galaxy with the right kind of humans that can be compatable with his genetic information. That's too silly for even GW authors to try to pull off.

 

 

Chaos, especially tzeentch works in mysterious ways. Perhaps the outcome is to drive magnus into the loving arms of tzeentch. Perhaps the best tool to enable that mother of all smack downs were the sw legion.

 

-------

In terms of the Op question, what you want to do. Your dime and time so call them whatever you like. However don't look for folks to agree if you have the lords of terra creating sw's any planet but fenris. lost companies arenyour best choice if younwant to stay in line with the fluff. There is a wd article that goes Into good detail on our lost companies. I'll dig up the info and post it later.

 

Also please use the search function there are MANY threads on this.

[Khavos]

After reading all of this, I am slightly perplexed at all of it. Maybe it is that I am married with children and this is my "Hobby," but I don't see what all the fuss is about. Build some models, paint them, and play.

 

 

Hey, I have about an hour's worth of work to do at my job every day, and then seven to kill. It's either argue about insignificant stuff on the internet, or set up a 360 in my office. And the latter may get noticed, so...here I be.