Blood Angels, Red Thirst and Vampirism

[Zealadin]

There has been an increasing number of people coming to these forums, asking about starting a Blood Angels army, while simultaneously making horrible vampire comments or alluding to Twifail, and complaining about our lore.

 

With the current edition's fluff, apart from a few mention's of certain sub-chapters possibly having blood drinking rituals (according to rumours and gossip) there really is not much backing to this rather annoyingly perpetuated concept. In the past maybe... but far less so now.

 

Maybe we could organise a sticky which would explain the current situation so we could avoid (to some extent) the many people coming and putting these rather annoying comments on the BA forum?

 

Personally I find the Blood Angels lore a very refreshing change from pretty much all the other Space Marine fluff, as it is both heroic yet troubled, and much more realistic to the 40k universe, and much more balanced in its portrayel of the Blood Angels and their kin as compared to the often horribly one dimensional and childish lore and fluff provided elsewhere for other chapters.

 

Anyone else feel this might be worth doing?

 

P.S. People calling blood angels vampires or making similar comments being banned would also be nice, but I'm guessing no?..... Oh well :cuss

[Captain Juan Juarez]

P.S. People calling blood angels vampires or making similar comments being banned would also be nice, but I'm guessing no?..... Oh well ;)

 

:cuss <- the politest you'll get for that remark.

 

On topic: They have a blood connection, such a thing will always lead to questions of a vampiric nature.. The key is to educate them, so in theory it is a good idea.. Though a Librarium article might be a better idea - somewhere you can direct someone without cluttering up the Forum.

[Zealadin]

The banning comment was a bit tongue in cheek :cuss

[JamesI]

If someone wants to write a nice post on Vampirism and the Blood Angels throughout the various editions and fluff changes it could end up in one of the sticky threads.

 

Personally, I like the Vampire aspect of the BA, the loss of control and drinking of opponents blood. But, I also understand many posters don't care for it and its good it was toned down in the new codex.

[stinkenheim]

At the end of the day most of the comments about twilight marines and space vampires are usually just banter between fellow hobbyists. Ok some may play it up a bit more than others within their armies but its nothing to get worked up about.

I play space wolves. or as they are often know space puppies, space vikings, space werewolves etc. All it is is an over simplification of the overriding theme that each chapter plays on. It doesn't bother me that people who know little about the different chapters simply break them down into the simplest stereotype. I certainly build up the theme in my wolves (so many charms, talismans, pelts, runes etc) because I like the look, likewise other players can be very minimal in their application of such things.

The same goes for the blood angels. Some amy love the vampire inspired themes others don't and a bit of light hearted banter about shouldn't be a problem.

[Khavos]

I think you're going to have a tough road to hoe in attempting to get questions about vampirism banned.

 

To be honest, I've got the BA codex and I've looked through it quite a bit, but it was just now when I read your post, OP, that I realized you're right; there isn't a lot of "wink-wink nudge-nudge vampires" stuff in the new codex, and it really does come across more as berserkers than Twilight. I hadn't noticed it because I'd read the previous codex, and previous BA fluff, and went into the new one already knowing that the vampire angle had already been established.

 

The vampiric influence was there in the BAs for a long time - and I'd argue it still is - and it's probably going to be impossible to wipe from the collective hive mind. Whether that's your interpretation of them or not, you may just have to make your peace with that being used as the shorthand archetype for the chapter, the same way as Space Wolves are space Viking werewolves, Ultramarines are Greco-Roman Mary Sues, Dark Angels are emo Gregorian monks, Black Templars are psychotic Knights Templar, Raven Guard are badass Special Forces types, White Scars are Mongolian bikers, etc.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

um....most ALL BA and successors have at least one blood drinking ritual. the ritual where they drink blood from the grail

[Deschenus Maximus]

Vampires > berzerkers, imo. Combat-addicted crazies fits better with the SW lore imo, and should be presented as such. GW should have stayed with the vampire theme for BA, but should have developped and explained it better. For instance, was it ever explained why BA feel the need to stop in mid-battle and drink the blood of their enemies?

[Arkio]

@ DM that was a rule for mephistion only in the RT era blood angel rules. that has fallen to the wayside and is not even discussed/mentioned any longer in BA source books. and as for blood thirsty crazies being wolves. i disagree they have always been the jovial party animals that enjoy a good bashing of imperial enemies as they do drinking mead in their great halls.

[WarpWalker]

I'll be the first to admit Twilight is just plain wishywashyhollabaloo! In history before Hollywood :) ed it up. Vampires were never sexy and were always feared.

There is a lot of similarity in the blood angels rituals and Baal worship. The thing that makes the Blood Angels so great is their determination

not to slip into their base disires. When the red thirst takes a brother they don't welcome him to the dinner table, play a game of chess together.

They shun them.

 

Try not to take life so seriously. If you don't like the vampiric nature of the blood angels make up some fluff explaining it away.

[JamesI]

Lets try to keep this discussion to the BA fluff and vampiric tendencies versus our opinions of Twilight and other modern vampire stories.

[Redo]

The Blood Angels chapter has long has some connection to vampirism but to be fair this has been toned down in the latest codex but there are still some elements and many people actually enjoy that and are passionate BA hobbists.

The way I see it if someone wants to interpret the BA history with a more vampiric flair...well that is their choice. No need to get worked up about it.

I would also counter that when GW first began associating the BA with vampiric traits they had the classic vampire traits in mind. Not some Twilight nonsense. Perhaps that is the problem. Today, when people think of vampires they first think of Twilight not the classical legends of vampires and perhaps this is why GW has reduced the vampire emphasis in this codex; To get away from the horrible image that BA are whingey gits like Edward and his buddies.

[lunchb0x]

I think that BA being Vampires has some merit....

 

I mean look at Twilight...they sparkle...well...ours are shiny and laid out with gold...so you know...its a logical connection. :P

 

 

( I am very very much so joking )

 

Though I do want to do a mephiston all painted up in sparkly stuff.

[Piousservant]

You'd think some people are really insecure the way they keep on about the "Twilight" thing. Considering the only people who seem to bring it up are those complaining about it, I'm not sure why they keep making the connection. :D

 

Blood Angels have always had a vampiric tilt, though kept well under wraps.Its something they're perhaps ashamed of - except for the occassional blood ritual (though IIRC that's more some of the successors than the BA themselves) and it's vampiric purely in the sense of drinking blood, rather than a "Velcome to my castle..." style thing. How the Chapter struggles with the Red Thirst, as much as the Black Rage, and the nobility of the Blood Angels in facing their flaws, is what gives them the depth of character which is more interesting than most Astartes (IMO).

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Huh. Personally seems to me that 'banning' or otherwise shouting down comparisons between Blood Angels and vampiric lore would be like not being allowed to compare Necrons to Terminators.

 

Necron Player: Uh! We're not Terminators! We're the soulless mechanical servants of star-eating Lovecraftian horrors!

 

Imperialis_Dominatus: *cough*WE'LL BE BACK*cough*

 

It's pointless. The comparison is supported canonically.

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

Now that i think about it whats the difference between the red thirst and the black rage arnt they the same thing just one is noticed on the battlefield and one is before they go to war?

[BrotherMoses]

Nexo, the Red Thirst and the Black Rage are two different curses/maladies afflicting our brethren. The Red Thirst is our thirst for blood. The Black Rage is the affliction that besets many of our brethren causing hallucinations in the subject usually involving Sanguinious and his last moments on Horus' battle barge.

 

If control is not maintained a brother marine could be dangerous to civilians or allies. Most marines learn control by the time they earn their power armour. Indeed, usually the neonates that have the worst trouble controlling our afflictions never make it out of the tenth company alive. The Sanguinary Priests of our apothecarion are working diligently to cure the thirst even now.

 

The Black Rage is the damage done to the chapter at Sanguinius' death. The trauma of his death is imprinted upon his gene seed. Sometimes a marine may fall into this rage. Those worst afflicted by the rage usually fall early, but late onset Black Rage does happen. The afflicted marine will be disoriented, sweaty, and may lose touch with reality. While, I'm yet to hear any report of an afflicted brother attacking another Blood Angel, there are reports of allies being attacked. Care of the Lost falls to the chaplains. A swift death is the best that can be done for these poor souls. Eventually, the Rage erodes a marines will. Such a marine is then not only susceptible to the effects of the Black Rage, but his ability to control the Thirst is also severely hindered.

 

*OOC* We don't know exactly what has caused either of these ailments, but I speculate that the wounds Sanguinious recieved from Ka'bhanda on Signus Prime caused the Red Thirst. The Black Rage seems to be the result of Sanguinius' death at the hands of the arch traitor or of some psychic attack employed by him.

 

Hail the Emperor.

[WarpWalker]

JamesI-

Lets try to keep this discussion to the BA fluff and vampiric tendencies versus our opinions of Twilight and other modern vampire stories.

 

I thought I was on topic here? This topic is mostly opinion. My post this afternoon was a little hastily and my opinion of current trends is irreverent. But to

get bend out of shape about it is...silly. I apologize for you having to edit my post for me jamesI. Thanks.

 

Piousservant-

Blood Angels have always had a vampiric tilt, though kept well under wraps.Its something they're perhaps ashamed of - except for the occassional blood ritual (though IIRC that's more some of the successors than the BA themselves) and it's vampiric purely in the sense of drinking blood, rather than a "Velcome to my castle..." style thing. How the Chapter struggles with the Red Thirst, as much as the Black Rage, and the nobility of the Blood Angels in facing their flaws, is what gives them the depth of character which is more interesting than most Astartes (IMO).

[jma037]

*OOC* We don't know exactly what has caused either of these ailments, but I speculate that the wounds Sanguinious recieved from Ka'bhanda on Signus Prime caused the Red Thirst. The Black Rage seems to be the result of Sanguinius' death at the hands of the arch traitor or of some psychic attack employed by him.

 

He's the sensitive type, ain't he? Everytime he gets hurt, his kids have to suffer. Give those emo kids in the Dark Angels a good run for their money huh? Great, now instead of just those emo kids, we have emo vampire kids.

 

:sweat:

[NExOBLIVISCARIS]

thank you brother moses for telling me they are 2 different things i thought for a while that they were the same sickness but the black rage was a more sever advanced form of it.

dont mean to sound like a mod but this is still getting off topic with just insulting each other.

and jma037 you've taken one step forward from not writting in claw my eys out bright red but you have taken 2 steps back by just posting to insult. and from the posts from you that i have read on this site (its pretty easy to remember someone with a bunch of blood red crosses for a bio) you have no affiliation with the blood angels besides insulting them so why just post here to insult it is not productive at all. but maybe i have over looked one that you have said something nice or given advide to a blood angels player.(see this topic is just turning into a bunch of hate spew i agree with the main topic exept instead of banning maybe a warning and their post being removed)

[Zealadin]

Vampirism is actually quite a cool concept, except when people start making the connection to Twilight, which is probably the most horrible representation of an amazing fantasy concept since the creation of time.

 

Maybe people aren't reading all the new threads popping up with people saying they want to play BA because the rules are cool, but won't because of innaccurate and horrible parrellels to twilight (which is rightly shunned in descent society).

 

Personally I wasn't trying to start a flame war between people whining over slightly different opinions on lore or making vague, annoying and useless generalisations about armies, I was talking about trying to get something going which will educate people and reduce the need ( for people who funnily enough seem to often be space wolves players) to ask stupid and insulting questions almost every time they post.

I guess the insulting part is the fact they all want to play the army but constantly whine about lore and fluff which isn't even current or relevant, while playing the FotM game.

 

I'm also sorry that the incredibly sarcasm in the banning comment wasn't obvious enough, I mean it was pretty damn obvious, but obviously /sarcasm/ tags were needed.

 

As per the current codex lore the red thirst is far more beserking in a traditional sense than anything blood related.

[Khavos]

*OOC* We don't know exactly what has caused either of these ailments, but I speculate that the wounds Sanguinious recieved from Ka'bhanda on Signus Prime caused the Red Thirst. The Black Rage seems to be the result of Sanguinius' death at the hands of the arch traitor or of some psychic attack employed by him.

My personal theory is that it's not a geneseed flaw at all, but rather simply a communicable disease that Sanguinius picked up somewhere. Since everybody's forced to drink his blood, it just gets passed on. I love the irony.

 

Maybe people aren't reading all the new threads popping up with people saying they want to play BA because the rules are cool, but won't because of innaccurate and horrible parrellels to twilight (which is rightly shunned in descent society).

 

I'm actually one of the folks you're talking about. I considered creating a BA successor due to my fondness for Assault Squads and assault lists in general. The vampire fluff turned me off; I ultimately decided to go with a Space Wolves Lost Company.

 

It wasn't due to Twilight, though, or at least I don't think it was. I've not been a fan of vampires since long before they got the 'modern' treatment.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I actually got into Blood Angels long ago and I have always liked their similarities in some ways to Vampires.

Their current description brings them, in my eyes, closest to the best 'modern' treatment of Vampirism: Vampire: The Masquerade the Roleplaying Game. I actually got into both BA's and V:tM a long time ago around the same time.

 

The parralels are clearly there. Both BAs and V:tM Vampires have a secret hunger inside of them (The Red Thirst), this comes from their nature as a Space Marine/Vampire. They both try to fight and control it as much as they can and their biggest struggle is the constant inner struggle to stop themselves from loosing themselves in Blood Lust.

But sometimes, they simply loose control because of another part of their nature (The Black Rage) and become true killing machines who only desire to kill and fulfill their deeper nature.

 

The only major difference is that a V:tM vampire can come back to his mind after he rages, while a BA is doomed to die in battle or by the hand of Astorath.

 

So.. point I'm trying to make is: There is precedent in Vampire literature of the raging Vampire and that being inside all of them (a sort of survival instinct coming up when either starving or in extreme physical danger). And that is why I like the current fluff. It steps aside from loosing control often, but still has that aspect of loosing control from time to time no matter how hard they struggle.

[PH WE]

In relation to a post earlier the marines affected by the Black Rage don't attack fellow marines as in the 'Legends of the Space Marines' book the last story At Gaius Point follows the Flesh Tearers were one of their brothers is being tracked and he refuses to attack until forced to

[Brother Landrain]

I'll be the first to admit Twilight is just plain gay!

 

Blood Angels have always had a vampiric tilt... and it's vampiric purely in the sense of drinking blood, rather than a "Velcome to my castle..." style thing...

 

I always wondered why the Blood Angels were not the best Siege attackers...

 

They can't break the Siege unless they get invited inside...

 

:D