Razborback vs. Rhino

[Captain Hwarang]

Hey everyone, should is the razorback any good? It seems like a good idea maybe for a devastator squad, or a command squad, but what's the general consensus? I'm building/painting a razorback right now that will maintain the rhino capability, but I wondered if anyone uses them. There's not many beakies at my LGS, but the ones I've seen don't use razorbacks.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Koremu]

Great for Command Squads, 5 man Sternguard and other small reactive units.

 

BA Razorbacks are much better than regular ones because of the 'fast' type (ability to move 12" and fire a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer = ouch)

[minigun762]

For vanilla Marines, I'd take a Rhino if I was keeping my Tac squad at 10 guys and a Razorback if I planned on Combat Squadding them.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, it depends on the unit that is riding in it and how you like to use them.

 

What is NOT depending on anything is the value of just buying the razorback kit. 33 dollars for a rhino, or 35 dollars to get the Rhino AND the ability to turn it into a razorback at any time.

 

Thats probly the easiest 2 dollars GW will ever get from me.

[spartan249]

Razorbacks give you a TL heavy bolter for 5 points... which is quite the bargain in my books. This is what combat-squadding is for. Use it and have razorbacks all over your army. It's not much more expensive and it adds a good amount of anti-infantry firepower to your list.

[Space_Moron]

Tactical question: Could you use the razorback (armed with lascannons) as a mobile heavy-weapons platform and combine it with a simple 5-man (and thus NAKED) tactical squad who's soul purpose would be to lend anti-personnel fire support while the razorback goes tank-hunting?

 

-Danny

[Jackelope King]

Tactical question: Could you use the razorback (armed with lascannons) as a mobile heavy-weapons platform and combine it with a simple 5-man (and thus NAKED) tactical squad who's soul purpose would be to lend anti-personnel fire support while the razorback goes tank-hunting?

 

-Danny

Not with twin-linked las-cannons. You can't get enough firepower out of them.

 

Now the las-cannon with the twin-linked plasma gun can do the job. But not with just one. You need to spam multiples. They can provide a decent firebase when you have at least a handful (3-4), or can provide the foundation of a razorback spam army (where you need at least 8-9 of the suckers).

 

In that sort of combat doctrine, you take advantage of what amounts to a fairly cheap las/plas squad of old, coupled with all the advantages of Mech.

[Captain Hwarang]

Great for Command Squads, 5 man Sternguard and other small reactive units.

 

BA Razorbacks are much better than regular ones because of the 'fast' type (ability to move 12" and fire a Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer = ouch)

 

So none of the other chapters' razorbacks can move 12" and fire, right? That seems like it kind of defeats the purpose right there: it's a transport vehicle, so why arm it with a weapon I'll likely never have a chance to fire. I guess I can move 6" and still fire it? Do players often get a chance to fire the razorbacks weapon?

 

Indeed, it depends on the unit that is riding in it and how you like to use them.

 

What is NOT depending on anything is the value of just buying the razorback kit. 33 dollars for a rhino, or 35 dollars to get the Rhino AND the ability to turn it into a razorback at any time.

 

Thats probly the easiest 2 dollars GW will ever get from me.

 

Yeah, no kidding. I wish I could think of something though to turn the weapons sprue into, rather than a razorback, like a heavy weapon emplacement or something. This is exactly what the manager at the local GW said to me as well. I'm glad I listened to him.

 

 

Razorbacks give you a TL heavy bolter for 5 points... which is quite the bargain in my books. This is what combat-squadding is for. Use it and have razorbacks all over your army. It's not much more expensive and it adds a good amount of anti-infantry firepower to your list.

 

Yeah that is a bargain, but I always assumed combat squading was for making each unit more flexible. Like, when I try to use my tac squads lascannon on a vehicle, I'd only be wasting three or four other shots in a combat squad, rather than the eight or nine shots I would waste on in the full squad. Not to mention wasting 54" worth of movement just to fire one gun.

 

Tactical question: Could you use the razorback (armed with lascannons) as a mobile heavy-weapons platform and combine it with a simple 5-man (and thus NAKED) tactical squad who's soul purpose would be to lend anti-personnel fire support while the razorback goes tank-hunting?

 

-Danny

 

I don't see why not. But that pretty much confirms the notion that using it as a transport wastes the weapon, or using it a fire base wastes the transport capacity, yeah? It seems like it's gotta be one or the other.

 

 

Tactical question: Could you use the razorback (armed with lascannons) as a mobile heavy-weapons platform and combine it with a simple 5-man (and thus NAKED) tactical squad who's soul purpose would be to lend anti-personnel fire support while the razorback goes tank-hunting?

 

-Danny

Not with twin-linked las-cannons. You can't get enough firepower out of them.

 

Now the las-cannon with the twin-linked plasma gun can do the job. But not with just one. You need to spam multiples. They can provide a decent firebase when you have at least a handful (3-4), or can provide the foundation of a razorback spam army (where you need at least 8-9 of the suckers).

 

In that sort of combat doctrine, you take advantage of what amounts to a fairly cheap las/plas squad of old, coupled with all the advantages of Mech.

 

I've wondered about this gun: do lascannons and plasmaguns really have any common targets? The lascannon is gonna crack the Chaos land raider or monolith, wasting the plasma gun shots, and something the plasmagun would target would be overkill for the lascannon. I've wondered this same thing about devastator squads: should I combine lascannons and plasma cannons in the same devastator squad? I think of the plasmagun/cannon as more anti-infantry, and the lascannon almost exclusively anti-tank.

 

Thanks for all of the replies guys. While I'm not sure I'm gonna use it in a game, at least I'm sure I'm gonna build it. Pics coming soon hopefully.

 

Thanks again.

 

-Captain Hwarang

[Arikel]

The razorback is great as a command vehicle as mentioned above, and also in small games. At 500 points, a marines army is going to consit of an hq and 2, maybe 3 units, for 5 points a hb razor back packs a lot more into your list than almost any other upgrade.

[Shard]

I've wondered about this gun: do lascannons and plasmaguns really have any common targets? The lascannon is gonna crack the Chaos land raider or monolith, wasting the plasma gun shots, and something the plasmagun would target would be overkill for the lascannon. I've wondered this same thing about devastator squads: should I combine lascannons and plasma cannons in the same devastator squad? I think of the plasmagun/cannon as more anti-infantry, and the lascannon almost exclusively anti-tank.

 

You're not going to reliably crack AV 14 with one Lascannon. The lc/tlpg combo is for heavy infantry. Like the terminators I fried last week with my razorback. :wallbash: So don't consider the las shot as wasted, consider it something extra to the plasma.

[Grey Mage]

Indeed, it depends on the unit that is riding in it and how you like to use them.

 

What is NOT depending on anything is the value of just buying the razorback kit. 33 dollars for a rhino, or 35 dollars to get the Rhino AND the ability to turn it into a razorback at any time.

 

Thats probly the easiest 2 dollars GW will ever get from me.

 

Yeah, no kidding. I wish I could think of something though to turn the weapons sprue into, rather than a razorback, like a heavy weapon emplacement or something. This is exactly what the manager at the local GW said to me as well. I'm glad I listened to him.

 

......

 

I've wondered about this gun: do lascannons and plasmaguns really have any common targets? The lascannon is gonna crack the Chaos land raider or monolith, wasting the plasma gun shots, and something the plasmagun would target would be overkill for the lascannon. I've wondered this same thing about devastator squads: should I combine lascannons and plasma cannons in the same devastator squad? I think of the plasmagun/cannon as more anti-infantry, and the lascannon almost exclusively anti-tank.

 

Thanks for all of the replies guys. While I'm not sure I'm gonna use it in a game, at least I'm sure I'm gonna build it. Pics coming soon hopefully.

 

Thanks again.

 

-Captain Hwarang

You can use them as emplacements- I have HBs from razorbacks that go on my orbital defense laser in apocalypse, or for scenarios- they fit well on the planetstrike emplacements, and its easy to make others.

 

The TLPG+LC works well against light tanks and heavy infantry. Taking down monstrous creatures, terminators, assault marines, plague marines, etc.

[Khavos]

You'd need a fair bit of target saturation to make it viable, no? Razorbacks aren't exactly difficult to pop, and if one's rolling around with 35 extra points of dangerous heavy weaponry and a nasty squad of some sort inside, I wouldn't expect it to live long unless there were worse threats.

[mowglie]

The problem with C:SM razorbacks isn't the razorback. It's the ineffectiveness of a Tactical squad at anything other than 10 men.

 

The razorback is much better than the rhino for command squads, sternguard, etc. Anything that fits. (Except, perhaps, a devastator squad - or a sternguard devastator-replacement squad - who potentially benefit more from the Rhino's fire point than from a TL HB. Do consider an upgraded TLLC razorback for them though).

 

The reason BA razorbacks are better than C:SM razorbacks isn't just because they're fast, it's because BA get 5-man assault squads as troops with 1x special weapon.

 

I definitely agree with the posters above that advise you to buy the razorback kit rather than the rhino kit, though. See in the UK, they're both £20 now. Crazy eh?

[Ookami_81]

Rhino and Razorbacks are absolutely not the same vehicle.

Rhinos are AFVs, they transport guys in a relatively safe fashion and with speed. The main weapon of the couple is the guys.

Razorbacks are IFVs, they should be the main gun of the couple, with guys in it to assist. I understand the command vehicle thing, though. But not with sternguards. Too weak. To me sterns are good at 10 in a unit in a drop pod. That's why I don't use them. Don't like pods.

 

Of course in 500 pts games I use one HB razor and combat squad, to give my Libby and the CC part of a tactical (LOL, indeed there's one...) a ride. But it sucks and I just hate it.

 

As an IFV razor should be taken TLLC or LC+2PG, that is anti-tank duty, and they should have anti-infantry meat shield in their belly. But 5 guys without even a flame-thrower sucks. Half a full tac sucks also. Tha main interest to give vehicles to your guys is not to have them move faster. Without being an assault vehicle and with the inability to fire heavy weapons when exiting the :D thing the mobility just sucks. Move 12" a turn, then the other turn exit and open up. Yeah, 6" par turn, that's what snails call mobility.

To me, Razors should be taken with five marines or six, a AT weapon, and guys should have an assault weapon, namely a flamer. But you can't if you want all your guys on tracks, like in a true mobile infantry force... Just about everything an IFV is done for. So Razors are IFVs, and just suck in that role.

As a command vehicle it's a good choice: I like the idea of an IC, a command squad with plasmaguns or flamers (or eventually sterns with HFlamers), and TLAC. That way you've got a polyvalent IFV able to shoot tanks and infantry of all kind, and people able to compement it. But you use most elite infantry and commander as meatshield for a IFV... Lame in the very idea of it.

 

As an armored taxi, the rhino is better. One tac in it, and go. But with all the restrictions I've written before, it's not THAT good. In fact, the best use for a Rhino IMHO is to sit on an objective with a tac squad. It provides for a bargain a small house in wood and weak concrete to shelter them until a tank or a IFV wants it done and good...

 

Oh, and if you want mobile elite infantry able to go everywhere, destroy everything, find a weak spot and destroy the enemy, well, in a word like in a thousand a space marine force... use bikes !

 

The best IFV + infantry I know in PA armies is four bikes, a MM AB, two meltaguns and a combimelta (or a fist for fanatics).

 

The best AFV + infantry I know in PA armies is seven bikes, a HB AB, two flamers and a combi-flamer (or a fist depending of the facing army).

 

Applying Warp Angel's Holy Killhammer and a true sense of mobility, you use full tacticals in rhino as a somewhat weak sauce Defender-class unit.

[Warp Angel]

Rhino and Razorbacks are absolutely not the same vehicle.

Rhinos are AFVs, they transport guys in a relatively safe fashion and with speed. The main weapon of the couple is the guys.

Razorbacks are IFVs, they should be the main gun of the couple, with guys in it to assist. I understand the command vehicle thing, though. But not with sternguards. Too weak. To me sterns are good at 10 in a unit in a drop pod. That's why I don't use them. Don't like pods.

 

Of course in 500 pts games I use one HB razor and combat squad, to give my Libby and the CC part of a tactical (LOL, indeed there's one...) a ride. But it sucks and I just hate it.

 

As an IFV razor should be taken TLLC or LC+2PG, that is anti-tank duty, and they should have anti-infantry meat shield in their belly. But 5 guys without even a flame-thrower sucks. Half a full tac sucks also. Tha main interest to give vehicles to your guys is not to have them move faster. Without being an assault vehicle and with the inability to fire heavy weapons when exiting the ;) thing the mobility just sucks. Move 12" a turn, then the other turn exit and open up. Yeah, 6" par turn, that's what snails call mobility.

To me, Razors should be taken with five marines or six, a AT weapon, and guys should have an assault weapon, namely a flamer. But you can't if you want all your guys on tracks, like in a true mobile infantry force... Just about everything an IFV is done for. So Razors are IFVs, and just suck in that role.

As a command vehicle it's a good choice: I like the idea of an IC, a command squad with plasmaguns or flamers (or eventually sterns with HFlamers), and TLAC. That way you've got a polyvalent IFV able to shoot tanks and infantry of all kind, and people able to compement it. But you use most elite infantry and commander as meatshield for a IFV... Lame in the very idea of it.

 

As an armored taxi, the rhino is better. One tac in it, and go. But with all the restrictions I've written before, it's not THAT good. In fact, the best use for a Rhino IMHO is to sit on an objective with a tac squad. It provides for a bargain a small house in wood and weak concrete to shelter them until a tank or a IFV wants it done and good...

 

Oh, and if you want mobile elite infantry able to go everywhere, destroy everything, find a weak spot and destroy the enemy, well, in a word like in a thousand a space marine force... use bikes !

 

The best IFV + infantry I know in PA armies is four bikes, a MM AB, two meltaguns and a combimelta (or a fist for fanatics).

 

The best AFV + infantry I know in PA armies is seven bikes, a HB AB, two flamers and a combi-flamer (or a fist depending of the facing army).

 

Applying Warp Angel's Holy Killhammer and a true sense of mobility, you use full tacticals in rhino as a somewhat weak sauce Defender-class unit.

 

I actually use my Razorback as a light, anti-infantry firebase (TL HB) and it's paired up with my Plasma Cannon configured "Defender" tactical squad. My Rhino is used to move up my Multi Melta equipped "Hunter" tactical squad. I do leverage the mobility of the Razorback to circumvent enemy cover and as a shield against shooting. It's a stupidly flexible platform and I wouldn't leave home without one.

[Ryjak]

Just wanted to add a somewhat obvious thing, but it's important as well. Razorbacks have five turrents available: two include Lascannons, one has the Heavy Bolter, one the Assault Cannon, and the last is the Heavy Flamer. Three of these weapons have enough range to keep their distance from their opponent, one has to close the gap, and one needs to be on top of the enemy.

 

If you're ride's hanging back, that means the squad's hanging back, and should be equipped and employed in that roll. If you're getting up close and personal, use a squad that wants to be up close and personal. This is why a Tactical Squad with a heavy weapon or a Devestator Squad make sense with the three long-range Razorbacks, and Sternguard and Command Squads do not. These squads should ride with a Heavy Flamer, or maybe an Assault Cannon, if you want them in a Razorback.

 

These squads can get away with using the Heavy Bolter Razorback, because it is cheap, but should never ride with the Lascannon Razors.

[Ookami_81]

Just wanted to add a somewhat obvious thing, but it's important as well. Razorbacks have five turrents available: two include Lascannons, one has the Heavy Bolter, one the Assault Cannon, and the last is the Heavy Flamer. Three of these weapons have enough range to keep their distance from their opponent, one has to close the gap, and one needs to be on top of the enemy.

 

If you're ride's hanging back, that means the squad's hanging back, and should be equipped and employed in that roll. If you're getting up close and personal, use a squad that wants to be up close and personal. This is why a Tactical Squad with a heavy weapon or a Devestator Squad make sense with the three long-range Razorbacks, and Sternguard and Command Squads do not. These squads should ride with a Heavy Flamer, or maybe an Assault Cannon, if you want them in a Razorback.

 

These squads can get away with using the Heavy Bolter Razorback, because it is cheap, but should never ride with the Lascannon Razors.

 

This. To me razorbacks and sternguards/plasma command squad are most efficient when the razor has TLAC. But for the cost of the overall unit the AV is frighteningly low... ^_^ Someone tolf me TLHF + all flamer command squad was a monster unit ... if it reach its short range...

Another option is to have cheapish 5 men 4 ML devastator and a TLLC razor.

 

But I can't understand razors with tacticals: "a tac squad with a heavy weapon in a razor" that doesn't exist. Why ? Because five of your guys are footslogging, and that's not the purpose of an IFV. Razors would be good vehicles for the 4th edition minidevs with TLLC. But here in the 5th if you want other things tan bolters toy need ten guys. It's fluff, it's good, and it's a reason why the only transport they should have is a Rhino.