MK of Raptor Power Armour

[AekoldHelbrass]

Current Raptors models have unique helmets, shoulder pads and legs. Does it mean that Raptor is not just a jump pack but full suite of Power Armour, with it's own MK, not like SM jump packs that can be attached to any MK of armour? And it just didn't got into all those SM "history of power armour" because it's Chaos?

 

I like current artwork for Raptors, and I think that those are what Raptor should look like, but friend of mine keeps bothering me that Zso Sahaal had winged jump pack, MK6-like helmet (you know, that woodpecker like Raven Guard) and he could hide his claws like current SM captains or terminators. But then, Lord of the Night was written long before Raptors got current cool look, wasn't it? So with current fluff Raptors should look just like they're described in Codex CSM 2002 and 2007?

 

Especially I am interested in opinions of fellow Night Lords, Brother Nihm and A D-B, but of course any comments are appreciated.

[Noctus Cornix]

Ok The raptor models you see today have no real affiliation to any MK of armor. Their Power Armour is twisted and warped by chaos to suite their needs, making them into more feral and beast-like predators of the sky. If you are using the present raptor models, then you are using raptors that 'use' chaos as a tool to better them in combat and to enhance the hunt. This, however, in no way means that they serve the chaos gods but its possible, varying from raptor to raptor. Your choice.

 

 

Zso Sahaal (the cowardly bastard) is just like his fellow raptors. It very commonly states that he has both the clawed boots of a present day raptor, and his jump pack 'resembled that of folded wings ' obviously telling us that its the same jump packs used by the chaos raptors. His Lightning claws would remind one of wolverine. They are master crafted weapons and when sheathed, one would assume it was just a normal space marines gauntlets so its not over sized like that of commonly seen lightning claws. The lightning claws produce four blades which 'strain against his knuckles' so we can assume that the blades jut out straight over the fingers. As far as his helmet goes, I would assume that it would look like that of any normal raptor as the book common makes testament to his 'vox grill', that of which no MK VI helmets have.

 

I hope this helps.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Cool, thanx for reply.

 

But then, if I want to make "pure Night Lords" - I should not use current Raptors because they're already mutated bu Chaos? So I need to get only jump packs and use them with simple SM/CSM parts?

 

Now you inspired me to browse "Lord of the Night" :sweat: because I can remember the vox grille but couldn't remember anything about claws on legs or beaky helmet... here is the quote:

Striding on heavy boots, autoreactive claws flexing at their tips, greaves that tapered towards horn-like knees pistoning above, he moved through their midst like a vulture-treading with care, the twin ridges of his jump pack recalling furled wings, beak-like helm sloping forwards like a jutting jaw.

 

So... I cannot imagine those horn-like knees... Nothing similar in models range. Also, looks like he had no claws on legs. But then, how is it possible to have grille and beak at the same time?.. Maybe Simon Spurrier imagined it better than described and it's for our imagination to combine those parts together?

[Brother Nihm]

Current Raptors models have unique helmets, shoulder pads and legs.

 

Does it mean that Raptor is not just a jump pack but full suite of Power Armour, with it's own MK, not like SM jump packs that can be attached to any MK of armour? And it just didn't got into all those SM "history of power armour" because it's Chaos?

That is correct, noctus cornix explained it well. Their armour is twisted by Chaos.

 

I like current artwork for Raptors, and I think that those are what Raptor should look like, but friend of mine keeps bothering me that Zso Sahaal had winged jump pack, MK6-like helmet (you know, that woodpecker like Raven Guard) and he could hide his claws like current SM captains or terminators. But then, Lord of the Night was written long before Raptors got current cool look, wasn't it?

LotN was published in 2005 and the new Raptors came with 4th ed. (2004)

 

So with current fluff Raptors should look just like they're described in Codex CSM 2002 and 2007?

That is the general consensus.

 

There's a few different ideas in this topic

 

Hope it helps.

[Noctus Cornix]

But then, if I want to make "pure Night Lords" - I should not use current Raptors because they're already mutated bu Chaos? So I need to get only jump packs and use them with simple SM/CSM parts?

Dude, if you want to make a 'pure' Night Lords army, though in all honesty no such thing exists, you sure as hell dont want to be fielding Zso Sahaal in your army for 2 reasons.

 

1. He willingly used chaos as a tool to protect him from the witch girl and even made a sacrifice to each of the four chaos gods.

 

2. He's a prick and a coward <_<

 

 

Striding on heavy boots, autoreactive claws flexing at their tips, greaves that tapered towards horn-like knees pistoning above, he moved through their midst like a vulture-treading with care, the twin ridges of his jump pack recalling furled wings, beak-like helm sloping forwards like a jutting jaw.

 

So... I cannot imagine those horn-like knees... Nothing similar in models range. Also, looks like he had no claws on legs. But then, how is it possible to have grille and beak at the same time?.. Maybe Simon Spurrier imagined it better than described and it's for our imagination to combine those parts together?

 

 

Ummm if you read the quote from the book, you can obciously see that he has claws at the end of his legs. Although the way they describe it, I can almost see it like the feet of the old fashioned raptors like this fine fellow

 

I believe when he refers to 'horn-like knees-, I think he is refering to the MK6 leggings in which the leg and knee where one part and the legging slowly shrinks in size up to the knee almost like a horn.

 

I suppose it may have just been a mistake when he said 'vox grill' as that quote obviously tells of a MK6 helmet but whatever works i suppose.

[AekoldHelbrass]

LotN was published in 2005 and the new Raptors came with 4th ed. (2004)

Oh... It's strange, why I thought it's much older?... BTW, anyone knows where is Simon Spurrier now and why he doesn't write for BL?

 

There's a few different ideas in this topic

Yea, seen this one before. To be honest - I don't like current jump packs of loyal marines. First of all - they're not that predatorish, with all those cubic parts and corners. And also in some SM codex it was written that pattern for those jump packs was discovered in M38 or something like that, so they will suite for renegade chapter or for few champions who could take it from fallen enemy. It's a pity there is still now plastic multipart Raptors with cool Chaotic jump packs...

 

Dude, if you want to make a 'pure' Night Lords army, though in all honesty no such thing exists, you sure as hell dont want to be fielding Zso Sahaal in your army for 2 reasons.

1. He willingly used chaos as a tool to protect him from the witch girl and even made a sacrifice to each of the four chaos gods.

2. He's a prick and a coward :D

No, not puritanic, just pure :huh: how pure can Chaos Legion be anyway? Those who were recruited on old Terra before they met Night Haunter and on cleansed Nostromo, trained by Fulgrim and Night Haunter himself (before he fell to his visions). Basically it's just indicates that I'll have no Daemon Princes, no Possessed, no cult troops, and they will care about whom they're fighting and why. But i mentioned it because they will not sit in Eye of Terror. If they will not - their Raptors will not be in those cool mutated armour?

 

Ummm if you read the quote from the book, you can obciously see that he has claws at the end of his legs. Although the way they describe it, I can almost see it like the feet of the old fashioned raptors like this fine fellow

 

I believe when he refers to 'horn-like knees-, I think he is refering to the MK6 leggings in which the leg and knee where one part and the legging slowly shrinks in size up to the knee almost like a horn.

 

I suppose it may have just been a mistake when he said 'vox grill' as that quote obviously tells of a MK6 helmet but whatever works i suppose.

Hm... yea, sounds logical. Maybe there are helmets with both beaks and grills?... Will take a look at older models...

[Piousservant]

I really wish you could still get hold of the old Raptor models, not a fan of the new ones myself.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Read the fluff in the previous chaos codex. Raptors are a very specific undivided cult. They are similar to Obliterators in that they have no god or Legion affiliation. They tend to work as a mercenary unit. Every chaos marine with a jump pack is not a Raptor. In the previous codex they were noticeably different from loyalist assault marines as they had hit and run. In the new codex, Raptors are no longer Raptors. They are just Chaos jump pack marines. Like the rest of Chaos, their fluff has been gutted.

[Dark Bjoern]

Actual i´m working on my NL project and have the same problem. I don´t like the actual raptor models. Too heavy and they turn over at every occasion.

I like the version Brother Nihm has build, but i also like the idea of the old style raptor with the winged jumppacks. I already have an idea how to build them myself, but i´ll have to see the bitz first.

[Requiemnex]

Not to be the fan boi or anything but Obliterators actually are made by the obliterator virus.. I believe the iron warriors own the patent to that. :P

 

But yes raptors were a part of their own cult and in the previous codex they have HUGE differences in their play style. They basically kept the same point value and removed their special abilities. Its too bad too. I really liked them in the previous codex.

[Rain]

Pretty sure the Raptor Cult has been completely retconned out of existence though as the cult color scheme of dark bronze was given to one of the new out of thin air chapters in the new codex and there are pictures of raptors in the NL colors in there as well so it appears that they really are just Chaos marines with jump packs now. Ah well.

 

In the larger scheme of things, as loath as I am to admit this, it does appear that 3rd edition Chaos fluff really is dead as the new Daemon Prince articles on the GW site involve things like a Tzeentch DP making tribute to Nurgle and the (admittedly fantasy) Slaanesh DP has bloodletters in his army. So yeah, I give up, throw in lash into your Khorne armies people, it's fluffy now.

[RapatoR]

In the larger scheme of things, as loath as I am to admit this, it does appear that 3rd edition Chaos fluff really is dead as the new Daemon Prince articles on the GW site involve things like a Tzeentch DP making tribute to Nurgle and the (admittedly fantasy) Slaanesh DP has bloodletters in his army. So yeah, I give up, throw in lash into your Khorne armies people, it's fluffy now.

At last! I really hated that idea yes there have been conflicts between Khorne and Slaanesh and also WE and EC so what? There always have been clashes between all gods and all legions aswell.

[AekoldHelbrass]

At last! I really hated that idea yes there have been conflicts between Khorne and Slaanesh and also WE and EC so what? There always have been clashes between all gods and all legions aswell.

The problem is not about the legion. It's about degradating of 4 Chaos Gods idea. With every next codex gods are more and more stupid, they are losing their ideas. The whole setting becomes more and more stupid. First they made all khorne followers as stupid as average berzerkers, then allow Nurgle Raptors and Bikers, then 2 DP in single army - what's next? 1000 Sons lead by Plague Sorcerer? Why not?

[RapatoR]

The problem is not about the legion. It's about degradating of 4 Chaos Gods idea. With every next codex gods are more and more stupid, they are losing their ideas. The whole setting becomes more and more stupid. First they made all khorne followers as stupid as average berzerkers, then allow Nurgle Raptors and Bikers, then 2 DP in single army - what's next? 1000 Sons lead by Plague Sorcerer? Why not?

Sorry but I think, they are developing rather than degradating 4 gods idea. Khore followers arent just boodthirsty and stupid, just read story in 4ed where Khârn slays another berserkers, they seem pretty reasonable, problem is rather in seeing every bloodthirsty bastard as Khorne follower.

Restricting some units just to some of the particular gods was really stupid.

CSM1: "Man I am getting really sick. That whispering of four gods is really annoing."

CSM2: "Easy cure man, just become biker/havoc two at least of them will immidiately cease it. Or become raptor, all four will stop."

CSM1: "They will stop? But... why?"

CSM2: "Thats obvious! Because you are biker/havoc/raptor!"

CSM1: :P

Same for 2 DPs:

CSM1: "Bwahahaha! This last sacrifice to dark gods and I will become so strong tha..."

CSM2: "No you won`t."

CSM1: "What? Why?"

CSM2: "Our warband already contains one Daemon prince, It is impossible to have two Daemon princes per warband."

CSM1: "What a silly joke." *makes an ascrifice and turns into spawn*

CSM2: "I warned you."

 

And gods hate idea is just... stupid. I alway wondered why magic hating Khorne has as his arch enemy Slaanesh.

BRW imagine this:

Horus: "Now I will smash you, father."

Emperor: "But you are, unfluffy my son."

Horus: :tu:

Emperor: "You are possesed by all four gods at once, but how can ancient enemies Slaanesh and Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch share one body."

*gods realising this truth leave Horus body*

[Lay]

^ You seem to assume that those are examples of restrictions that weren't backed by fluff, when in fact the opposite was true - especially with the last one. There's decades worth of background material that has elaborated the relationships between the Gods and the concept of Chaos Undivided. It certainly didn't leave me wondering.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Sorry but I think, they are developing rather than degradating 4 gods idea. Khore followers arent just boodthirsty and stupid, just read story in 4ed where Khârn slays another berserkers, they seem pretty reasonable, problem is rather in seeing every bloodthirsty bastard as Khorne follower.

Restricting some units just to some of the particular gods was really stupid.

Sorry man, looks like you're totally blind to what I am talking about.

First of all, Khârn IS berzerker, he went through partial lobotomy to be the one. It's operation performed mostly by World Eaters apothecaries. Not all Khorne followers are berzerkers. That's what I am talking about, once it was absolutely obvious and now you can't even tell the difference.

Then, again, other examples are wrong too. Raptor was a cult. Khorne was cult, Nurgle was cult, and Raptor was a cult. To get into cult you have to get along with some ideology, you have to be ready to fight and to die for it. It's not like "oh, today i'll go with Raptors, they're cool".

And of course with DP. Any sorcerer can feel when someone is closer to become a DP. Any DP will feel it too. And any DP will not allow this. The question is not that you can't become a DP. If you'll become - you have to kill current warband leader or die by his hand. You can't just be friends and lead together. Try to write a short story about 2 DPs in single warband and you'll see how unfluffy it is.

 

But again, Codex is not made to be fluffy, it's made to sell miniatures. Now you got new plastic DP, so you have to buy two of them because current Codex allows it. Paint them into World Eaters colours, and give them Mark of Slaanesh and Lash. To be fluffy of course.

[RapatoR]

^ You seem to assume that those are examples of restrictions that weren't backed by fluff, when in fact the opposite was true - especially with the last one. There's decades worth of background material that has elaborated the relationships between the Gods and the concept of Chaos Undivided. It certainly didn't leave me wondering.

Sorry I cant help but I stil consider idea "This god will never join this god for reaching particular goal." as silly. OF COURSE every god hates each other, but never ever can join togedher? Khrone hates magic in all its forms and he hates Slaanesh most?

 

Sorry man, looks like you're totally blind to what I am talking about.

First of all, Khârn IS berzerker, he went through partial lobotomy to be the one. It's operation performed mostly by World Eaters apothecaries. Not all Khorne followers are berzerkers. That's what I am talking about, once it was absolutely obvious and now you can't even tell the difference.

I know that Khârn is berserker, what was you complaining about, was that "made every Khorne follower as stupid as average berzerkers". What I was trying to point out was that not EVEN berzerker is that stupid as you may think.

 

Then, again, other examples are wrong too. Raptor was a cult. Khorne was cult, Nurgle was cult, and Raptor was a cult. To get into cult you have to get along with some ideology, you have to be ready to fight and to die for it. It's not like "oh, today i'll go with Raptors, they're cool".

Again that wasnt just about raptors, also about bikers and havocs. Yesy Raptors was a cult, cult "unified by thrill of the hunt" (and pressence of jump packs on their backs of course) they became a faction that "cut across boundaries of the Traitor legions" so where is idea of "we are just an only undivided, because... well because"? There wasnt a single squad that brought at least any customs from their original legion and there wasnt any squad that fell to worshipping one god? Well that would make them undivided grey knights.

 

And of course with DP. Any sorcerer can feel when someone is closer to become a DP. Any DP will feel it too. And any DP will not allow this. The question is not that you can't become a DP. If you'll become - you have to kill current warband leader or die by his hand. You can't just be friends and lead together. Try to write a short story about 2 DPs in single warband and you'll see how unfluffy it is.

Again "this will never ever happen" idea, well I am sure that Abbadons warband has more than single DP it all depends on how big the warband is. Yes if there is 40 men strong warband 1 DP is more than enough. (Although when I think over it, is such small warband every monster would be wellcomed to raise strengh of the warband...) But if he leads warband with several vessels? Yes they cant lead togedher, but there are surely ways how to ascertain his compliance even without killing him. It all depends on the capabillity of leader. You was complaining about generallising Khorne followers and now you are genenrallising all DPs?

Edit: And one more think: SM and ork codex, allow players to take 2 Chapter masters and 2 Warbosses, and nobody is screaming how much unfluffy it is.

[AekoldHelbrass]

Sorry I cant help but I stil consider idea "This god will never join this god for reaching particular goal." as silly. OF COURSE every god hates each other, but never ever can join togedher? Khrone hates magic in all its forms and he hates Slaanesh most?

Again the same, why Khorne hates magic? It's because once upon a time in Warhammer FB Khorne was a God of War, not just god of bloodhungry imbicils. And for followers of War God there was no pride and nobility in shooting with crossbows or using magic, all conflicts were resolved by raw strength. So, why can't bloodthirsty psyker with Warptime be a Khorne follower? Just because that idea degradated so much that now everybody thinks Khorne just hates psykers and that's all?

 

I know that Khârn is berserker, what was you complaining about, was that "made every Khorne follower as stupid as average berzerkers". What I was trying to point out was that not EVEN berzerker is that stupid as you may think.

In most books Khorne followers are described in the same manner: if you will not give them something to kill - they will start killing each other. Only few books actually can describe reasonable Khorne follower, like it was done in Storm of Iron. But still Khorne is different in FB. It's more interesting, less degradated.

 

Again that wasnt just about raptors, also about bikers and havocs. Yesy Raptors was a cult, cult "unified by thrill of the hunt" (and pressence of jump packs on their backs of course) they became a faction that "cut across boundaries of the Traitor legions" so where is idea of "we are just an only undivided, because... well because"? There wasnt a single squad that brought at least any customs from their original legion and there wasnt any squad that fell to worshipping one god? Well that would make them undivided grey knights.

You're talking about something different. I still can't get your idea. I mean a bit different thing. First of all, every one of Chaos Gods represent some emotion, some character. Raptors were a cult. They mutated by the will of some god, they followed some ideas. So they already had their god. It's just nobody can say exactly who they were. It was not the case for Havocs/Bikers. But ok, let's leave Raptors alone. Let's take a look at other limitations. Follower of Khorne is fan of close combat fighting, isn't he? He will not resist taking his chainsword and running into assault instead of standing with some Lascannon shooting. It's not his style. The same with Nurgle, being so indifferent to material world, being the apathy itself - you will not feel the thrill of hunt required for being a Raptor. Nurgle follower is too indifferent to ride into the fight on the bike with turbo-boosters. It's the essence of Nurgle, it's his character. But too often now we can see Nurgle bikers, of course because of T6. That's what I am calling a degradation of 4 Gods idea.

 

 

Again "this will never ever happen" idea, well I am sure that Abbadons warband has more than single DP it all depends on how big the warband is. Yes if there is 40 men strong warband 1 DP is more than enough. (Although when I think over it, is such small warband every monster would be wellcomed to raise strengh of the warband...) But if he leads warband with several vessels? Yes they cant lead togedher, but there are surely ways how to ascertain his compliance even without killing him. It all depends on the capabillity of leader. You was complaining about generallising Khorne followers and now you are genenrallising all DPs?

Ok, I'll use 2 arguments:

1. Can you really write some short story, or back of your warband or something like that, that will show how warband got 2 DPs and how they are ruling the warband together?

2. Did you ever played ADnD with good roleplay team? If the team is really good at roleplay - there is only 1 way of communication between N evil characters: they will eventually fight each other, and then winner will lead. Of course WH40k mostly describes only battlefield up to 7 turns, so you can't see all that background stories. But give them few days together and you'll get few dead bodies, few broken noses and legs and one leader. And Abaddon is the leader who can stand his ground.

 

Edit: And one more think: SM and ork codex, allow players to take 2 Chapter masters and 2 Warbosses, and nobody is screaming how much unfluffy it is.

I am not responsible for their actions. And of course I am not playing with people who's making rosters like that. I am lucky enough to play with people who's thinking about story of their army. I am worried about the fate of Chaos codex. Now, when everyone moved to warbands, I find it hard to believe that it will be possible to return to Chaos Legions. So next codex will not be return of 3.5, the path is already set.

[Lay]

Sorry I cant help but I stil consider idea "This god will never join this god for reaching particular goal." as silly. OF COURSE every god hates each other, but never ever can join togedher? Khrone hates magic in all its forms and he hates Slaanesh most?

If you think it's silly, then that's your problem. If you claim that it doesn't make any sense from a fluff perspective ...well, I've already said that there's plenty of fluff explaining it. Take it or leave it.

[RapatoR]

In most books Khorne followers are described in the same manner: if you will not give them something to kill - they will start killing each other. Only few books actually can describe reasonable Khorne follower, like it was done in Storm of Iron. But still Khorne is different in FB. It's more interesting, less degradated.

 

Maybe you should look from perspective you pointed at in this post:

2. Did you ever played ADnD with good roleplay team? If the team is really good at roleplay - there is only 1 way of communication between N evil characters: they will eventually fight each other, and then winner will lead. Of course WH40k mostly describes only battlefield up to 7 turns, so you can't see all that background stories. But give them few days together and you'll get few dead bodies, few broken noses and legs and one leader.

If you have an evil character with some sense of aggresivity, he will be bloodthirsty maniac even without being Khorne follower (in a Soul hunter

Uzas is pretty bloodthirsty and Khorne is just whispering (Uzas isnt Khorne gifted or possesed in any way) to him, Khorne has nothing to do with his bloodthistiness

) but their nature leads them to be Khorne followers. I mean you have a little sense of martial pride if you are evil maniac. A real warriors group should be in minority then. But they are mentioned form time to time: Zerks mentioned above, zerks giving big up to Ulrik the slayer after killing five zerks etc.

 

Again the same, why Khorne hates magic? It's because once upon a time in Warhammer FB Khorne was a God of War, not just god of bloodhungry imbicils. And for followers of War God there was no pride and nobility in shooting with crossbows or using magic, all conflicts were resolved by raw strength. So, why can't bloodthirsty psyker with Warptime be a Khorne follower? Just because that idea degradated so much that now everybody thinks Khorne just hates psykers and that's all?

No I think thats great idea (in fact friend of mine plays an WE psyker in that manner) and thats why I am against restrictive idea. It doesnt leaves an area for such examples.

 

Follower of Khorne is fan of close combat fighting, isn't he? He will not resist taking his chainsword and running into assault instead of standing with some Lascannon shooting. It's not his style.

And here we are again. As far as I remember, Khorne is also god of fighting in all its forms, I can remember that when there was discusion about degradating Khorne someone posted that in older fluff there were followers of Khorne whose hadsomething like big cannon of Khorne. In fact, predators should be onfluffy for WE too and they werent. Thats why I am not a fan of idea: "this follower of this god should never be like this."

 

You're talking about something different. I still can't get your idea. I mean a bit different thing. First of all, every one of Chaos Gods represent some emotion, some character. Raptors were a cult. They mutated by the will of some god, they followed some ideas. So they already had their god. It's just nobody can say exactly who they were. It was not the case for Havocs/Bikers. But ok, let's leave Raptors alone. Let's take a look at other limitations. Follower of Khorne is fan of close combat fighting, isn't he? He will not resist taking his chainsword and running into assault instead of standing with some Lascannon shooting. It's not his style. The same with Nurgle, being so indifferent to material world, being the apathy itself - you will not feel the thrill of hunt required for being a Raptor. Nurgle follower is too indifferent to ride into the fight on the bike with turbo-boosters. It's the essence of Nurgle, it's his character. But too often now we can see Nurgle bikers, of course because of T6. That's what I am calling a degradation of 4 Gods idea.

I am fine with raptors idea, but idea itself can be imagined in several ways an can be "corrupted" with previous customs... Nurgle is known for his sense of humor so I wouldnt connect him so directly with apathy...

 

Ok, I'll use 2 arguments:

1. Can you really write some short story, or back of your warband or something like that, that will show how warband got 2 DPs and how they are ruling the warband together?

2. Did you ever played ADnD with good roleplay team? If the team is really good at roleplay - there is only 1 way of communication between N evil characters: they will eventually fight each other, and then winner will lead. Of course WH40k mostly describes only battlefield up to 7 turns, so you can't see all that background stories. But give them few days together and you'll get few dead bodies, few broken noses and legs and one leader. And Abaddon is the leader who can stand his ground.

1. They dont have to lead togedher if one of them ensures compliance of the second. The other DP can be in postion of how are aspiring champions to chaos lord: Waiting to any "unhappy accident" to happen to their leader. If one is so strong that becomes DP he has to have some influence and followers in the warband and the wont get him killed just like that. Again this is nicely described in Soul hunter in the relationship of DP and Chaos lord.

2. Abadon is leader who can stand his ground, and I am sure that he isnt only such leader.

 

 

If you think it's silly, then that's your problem. If you claim that it doesn't make any sense from a fluff perspective ...well, I've already said that there's plenty of fluff explaining it. Take it or leave it.

Let me explain it other way, I have no problem with gods hating ecah other, I have problem incorporating that into rules and look at that as alliance that could never ever happen.

[AekoldHelbrass]

If you have an evil character with some sense of aggresivity, he will be bloodthirsty maniac even without being Khorne follower (in a Soul hunter

Uzas is pretty bloodthirsty and Khorne is just whispering (Uzas isnt Khorne gifted or possesed in any way) to him, Khorne has nothing to do with his bloodthistiness

) but their nature leads them to be Khorne followers. I mean you have a little sense of martial pride if you are evil maniac. A real warriors group should be in minority then. But they are mentioned form time to time: Zerks mentioned above, zerks giving big up to Ulrik the slayer after killing five zerks etc.

Actually your example is the only thing in Soul Hunter I didn't liked. Again, Khorne once was god of war, not bloodthirsty maniacs. Space Wolves can server as example. They are too savage though, but they are both noble (kind of) and war-hungry.

 

No I think thats great idea (in fact friend of mine plays an WE psyker in that manner) and thats why I am against restrictive idea. It doesnt leaves an area for such examples.

Khorne hates trickery, hates hiding and hates scared weaklings who are not fighting face-to-face. So as for me rules should (or must?) be restrictive, in way to represent the spirit of something, the idea of Chaos God. And it was like this for some time. So there were ideas, rules were written by those ideas, then someone didn't got an idea but got a restriction, than that someone wrote next Codex:CSM or any other codex, and he put that restriction back. So current rules are like result of someone's Chinese whispers game. And as for me core rules must be restrictive, very-very restrictive, to prevent cheating or setting-breaking. But homerules and friendly games should be encouraged.

 

In fact, predators should be onfluffy for WE too and they werent. Thats why I am not a fan of idea: "this follower of this god should never be like this."

I think that they have predators just because they were SM Legion. But most of their predators are drived by serfs or daemonic engines, not by space marines of World Eaters. So in case of Predator it's a unit who incapsulates details of implementation.

 

nicely described in Soul hunter in the relationship of DP and Chaos lord

Exalted was Lord close to spawnhood as for me. And Talos didn't liked his way, but he didn't wanted to be a Lord himself. At least as I understood it. In Battle for Abyss there was young recruit, and that higher in command Word Bearer just made him die. I think it's perfect example. If you would be a DP or warband, and then you see someone who will become one himself - you will not let it be, you'll do something about that. Including slaughtering of half of own warband.

 

2. Abadon is leader who can stand his ground, and I am sure that he isnt only such leader.

If his leadership is questionable - I don't think he would leave long enough to start 13 black crusades. So the first thing he did - showed his power to everyone, so his leadership would not be questionable in generations.

 

Let me explain it other way, I have no problem with gods hating ecah other, I have problem incorporating that into rules and look at that as alliance that could never ever happen.

But it kills ideas behind the fluff. So basically if you're allowing something like this officialy in codex - you're breaking the fluff, because people will not get it why they are hating each other then. It's like "you know, that 4 gods, they, kind of, hate each other.". So core rules must be 100% fluffy. But then it is possible to publish some homerules suggestions, or put some interesting article into WD. Also, the manner can differ. In CSM 3.5 you couldn't take Lord with one mark and cult troops with opposite mark, but you could take Lord without mark and then leutenants with any marks and troops with any marks. As for me something changed the way of army composition. Using previous Codex you had your army, your Legion. But now you have a battlegroup. So yes, situations where opposite gods are fighting along are possible, but it's like someone made them, or some Lord send unwanted cults to suicidal mission or something. You do not have your army, your Legion any more. You have just a pack of basterds who's doing something because someone will kick their ass if they will not. Again, as it was described in Soul Hunter when they fought with Mechanicus.

[RapatoR]

Actually your example is the only thing in Soul Hunter I didn't liked. Again, Khorne once was god of war, not bloodthirsty maniacs. Space Wolves can server as example. They are too savage though, but they are both noble (kind of) and war-hungry.

I already showed an examples where Khorne berzerkers showed up like real warriors and not like madmen. And with Soul hunters case I believ you are a bit mistaken, whan Talos speaks to Khorne he is not like: "KILL KILL!" and he reveals that he in fact hasnt control (or whatever) over Uzas YET. Uzas was maniac, not depending that he was becoming Khorne devoted.

 

Khorne hates trickery, hates hiding and hates scared weaklings who are not fighting face-to-face. So as for me rules should (or must?) be restrictive, in way to represent the spirit of something, the idea of Chaos God. And it was like this for some time. So there were ideas, rules were written by those ideas, then someone didn't got an idea but got a restriction, than that someone wrote next Codex:CSM or any other codex, and he put that restriction back. So current rules are like result of someone's Chinese whispers game. And as for me core rules must be restrictive, very-very restrictive, to prevent cheating or setting-breaking. But homerules and friendly games should be encouraged.

Rules restrictions to rpevent cheating and rules restrictions due to fluff are two separate things.

 

I think that they have predators just because they were SM Legion. But most of their predators are drived by serfs or daemonic engines, not by space marines of World Eaters. So in case of Predator it's a unit who incapsulates details of implementation.

Most not all... And there are zerks riding defilers too.... And I already mentioned that big gun of khorne, dont saing that Brass scorpion has at least one big cannon too.

 

Exalted was Lord close to spawnhood as for me. And Talos didn't liked his way, but he didn't wanted to be a Lord himself. At least as I understood it. In Battle for Abyss there was young recruit, and that higher in command Word Bearer just made him die. I think it's perfect example. If you would be a DP or warband, and then you see someone who will become one himself - you will not let it be, you'll do something about that. Including slaughtering of half of own warband.

Well ADB mentioned Exalted as DP here in forum. And Exalted tried to get rid off Talos several times, but

 

If his leadership is questionable - I don't think he would leave long enough to start 13 black crusades. So the first thing he did - showed his power to everyone, so his leadership would not be questionable in generations.

Uh Abby didnt led ALL 13 black crusades, there were crusades led by other leaders and that speaks for itself.

 

But it kills ideas behind the fluff. So basically if you're allowing something like this officialy in codex - you're breaking the fluff, because people will not get it why they are hating each other then. It's like "you know, that 4 gods, they, kind of, hate each other.". So core rules must be 100% fluffy. But then it is possible to publish some homerules suggestions, or put some interesting article into WD. Also, the manner can differ. In CSM 3.5 you couldn't take Lord with one mark and cult troops with opposite mark, but you could take Lord without mark and then leutenants with any marks and troops with any marks. As for me something changed the way of army composition. Using previous Codex you had your army, your Legion. But now you have a battlegroup. So yes, situations where opposite gods are fighting along are possible, but it's like someone made them, or some Lord send unwanted cults to suicidal mission or something. You do not have your army, your Legion any more. You have just a pack of basterds who's doing something because someone will kick their ass if they will not. Again, as it was described in Soul Hunter when they fought with Mechanicus.

I will tell this on an example. In my country there is one really strong political party, which boldly steals public money, spits on basic human rights, openly tries to restrict them and dreams about old "good" days of communism and so on. Despite this all their popularity is high and last they almost won last elections. Only thing that stopped them is coalition of liberals and conservatives. And no one says we are an unfluffy nation, we are just a bunch of people who want serious democracy. So gods may hate each other, but there is one think they hate more: an imperium.

And Legions dissolved into warbands issue? Well I think is exactly what would became with Lagions after huge defeat and subsequent 10 000 years of fighting stronger opponent, they have to fight for they very survival.