Enemies 101

[DemetriiTZ]

I've never faced a good Daemon player, and I've never seen Bigfoot, either. ;)

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ok its been a while since anyone posted, so i'll kick off another one (feel free to help me with it!)

 

Orks:

 

How they play:

 

Orks are all about numbers, they can bring lots and lots of bodies to the field. This is because they are dangerous opponents in CC and although they pack an awful armour save their numbers give them the ability to help close the gap quite quickly. Ork technology is ramshackle and unstable, but effective and helps them get the job done. Most orks are predictably going to want to smash your face in and have some very dangerous CC opponents such as Nobs in their army that will probably give any unprepared unit a hard time of it. Weight of numbers and a clear army wide strength in combat means that any opponent can more or less expect what they are going to do, it can be quite hard to deal with it though.

 

Strengths:

 

With the possibility to field huge numbers (The AOBR set has a total of 29 Ork units wheras marines have a mere 17, quite a difference AND the orks are still quite a few points less than the marines!) so they can expect to outnumber most people on the battlefield. Orks can run on foot if they so choose and because of their large numbers can shrug of the casualties they take getting to their foe and still be capable of ripping an opponent to pieces. Equally their sheer mass on numbers is a real danger even at a range. An ork weapon is pretty poor, but you can field a LOT of them so they can cut down even well armoured units with sheer number of bullets, which is something not often expected and quite fearsome. Orks are able to go toe to toe with a lot of enemy troops and so they have a good basic troop for hitting objectives, swamping the opponent not just with numbers but with fearsome CC. Also some of the Ork special characters such as Gahzgull Thrakka are able to give the army an even more deadly edge.

 

Weaknesses:

 

Orks have a large number of weaknesses that an enemy can play on. The first is their poor armour save. They may as well wear cardboard for the most part, as a good amount of shooting should whittle them down. Naturally this isn't too much of a deal for an ork player, but template weaponry can tear out chunks of the army at a time and seriously hamper the power of the ork hoarde. Also Orks shooting is poor, they cannot go toe to toe with most other enemies and expect to out shoot them, Orks can manage weight of fire, but it wont be quality fire like the enemies will. Instead they must run a gauntlet of firepower to acheive their full potential which will inevitably whittle them down. Also Orks like all armies, should try and get off the charge as if the enemy pulls off the charge on them it will seriously reduce the full power of the Ork assault. Orks MUST make use of cover to try and get most of their units to the enemy with as little damage as possible. Orks also suffer from being able to deal with high armour targets, AV 13+ which means that they are going to suffer heavily and only able to deal with such things with a close combat power klaw, or deffrolla. Orks also rely on their Lootaz to deal with most other armour and although it is effective, if they lose them, they are stuck trying to deal with enemy armour efficiently.

 

 

Things to watch for:

 

Ork boyz: Ok so they're the basic troops, but you can expect a lot of them. And you'll have to make sure you whittle them down whilst they're at a distance because once they get close its going to be a slog to cut through the number of them! Plus they'll probably exploit cover and shield other units with the number of bodies and help get more dangerous units to plow into your lines.

 

Ork Gun army: Massive amounts of crappy awful guns. Masses of them. In number even poor stuff is dangerous and this army can perhaps even outgun a space marine army or better with just sheer numbers of guns. Forcing more saves means more chances to fail!

 

Da green tide: Orks can afford to drop lots of bodies on the field so you may find that the orks field huge numbers of armies purely on foot! Whilst this sounds an idea opportunity to blast them all away with ranged firepower, the orks may well close faster than you can deal with them and you'll end up with a lot of orks on your lap!

[Jackelope King]

You missed one of the most critical weaknesses of Orks, Grim: They can't handle vehicles, especially AV13 and AV14. Deffrollas are literally the only option they have for dealing with something like a Land Raider, and anything in the Predator weight-class basically requires them to try to get a hidden Power Klaw around to assault the thing. They can usually torrent down light armor with Lootaz, but that's pretty much all they have. Kill the Lootaz, and Orks are stuck reacting to you.

[chaplain belisarius]

i always find that massed rokkit launchers do ok at anti tank with my orks...

[Vaktathi]

Orks have a problem with long range AT against Av13/14 vehicles and anything with significant rear AV rating. However, Orks have those wonderful Lootas will generally terminate anything AV12 or lower from across the board.

[DarkGuard]

Another way to combat Orks is to charge them. Seriously, I'm not joking, and I'm not crazy. Despite numbers, Marine toughness and all that, they aren't so hard in combat if you charge them. Reason being, besides the cardboard armour they only have S3, and so rely on Furious Charge to make good use of combat. Also, your Marines have a higher init if you charge them, and a big unit with support from another can tackle Orks hand on.

 

If Marines get the charge, they can surprise Orks in combat, especially with pre-combat shooting, so use this to your advantage. It worked for me at a recent tournament, where my depleted Sternguard unit charged an Ork unit of an objective and held it, Orks aren't so scary without Furious Charge. Of course the problem is getting the charge, as a canny Ork opponent will keep his Orks out of charge range during your turn, and the right use of the Waagh! can catch you unawares as the Orks suddenly run that previously safe gap and get in combat. So basically, if you want to combat the Greenskins up close, be safe, and get the charge after softening them up.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Thank you guys, ive added in some of the stuff you have suggested! Thanks for pointing it all out! :yes:

 

Hopefully it won't be long before a few more of these are completed!

[Chengar Qordath]

Another way to combat Orks is to charge them. Seriously, I'm not joking, and I'm not crazy. Despite numbers, Marine toughness and all that, they aren't so hard in combat if you charge them. Reason being, besides the cardboard armour they only have S3, and so rely on Furious Charge to make good use of combat. Also, your Marines have a higher init if you charge them, and a big unit with support from another can tackle Orks hand on.

 

If Marines get the charge, they can surprise Orks in combat, especially with pre-combat shooting, so use this to your advantage. It worked for me at a recent tournament, where my depleted Sternguard unit charged an Ork unit of an objective and held it, Orks aren't so scary without Furious Charge. Of course the problem is getting the charge, as a canny Ork opponent will keep his Orks out of charge range during your turn, and the right use of the Waagh! can catch you unawares as the Orks suddenly run that previously safe gap and get in combat. So basically, if you want to combat the Greenskins up close, be safe, and get the charge after softening them up.

I'll second this, and even extend the principle to counter-charging other units that have Furious Charge. Denying the enemy +1 to strength and initiative is often a very good move.

[Koremu]

Another way to combat Orks is to charge them. Seriously, I'm not joking, and I'm not crazy. Despite numbers, Marine toughness and all that, they aren't so hard in combat if you charge them. Reason being, besides the cardboard armour they only have S3, and so rely on Furious Charge to make good use of combat. Also, your Marines have a higher init if you charge them, and a big unit with support from another can tackle Orks hand on.

 

If Marines get the charge, they can surprise Orks in combat, especially with pre-combat shooting, so use this to your advantage. It worked for me at a recent tournament, where my depleted Sternguard unit charged an Ork unit of an objective and held it, Orks aren't so scary without Furious Charge. Of course the problem is getting the charge, as a canny Ork opponent will keep his Orks out of charge range during your turn, and the right use of the Waagh! can catch you unawares as the Orks suddenly run that previously safe gap and get in combat. So basically, if you want to combat the Greenskins up close, be safe, and get the charge after softening them up.

Assault Squads with 2 Flamers actually do more of their killing with the shooting than they do with the CC - and Orks are handily Fearless like all good horde assault victims.

 

The other thing to do is the charge them with Bikes. You do even more killing before the charge, and they need 6s to wound you.

[Ming]

See my blog for everything from Battle reports to experiments of Marines vs Orks. An ork player can get 3 to 4 orks per marine. Wheras that marine gets one or 2 CC attacks, the orks get 3 or 4 cc attacks. Its not uncommon for an ork player to run out of dice or use a hat to hold them all vs marines. The best defense for a marine player vs a good ork player, is don't play them...or talk your local ork player to keep his mobs below 20 orks per unit.

[Koremu]

Math;

 

10 Assault Marines, 2 Flamers, Power Fist (235 points)

 

vs

 

27 Ork Boyz with Slugga/Choppa, 2 with Big Shoota plus 1 Boss a 4+ save, Shoota and Klaw (230 I think)

 

 

 

Assuming the Marines get the charge and shoot beforehand (i.e no Shrike Fleet);

 

-Shooting;

 

--8 Bolt Pistols at BS4;

---Average 5.33 hits

----Average 2.66 wounds

-----No Saves

 

--2 Flamers

---Assume 6 hits per Flamer = 12 hits

----Average 6 Wounds

-----No Saves

 

------8.66 kills from shooting

 

-Hand-to-Hand

 

--9 Assault Marines at Init 4

---25 Attacks Total

----Average 12.5 hits

-----Average 6.25 Wounds

------Average 5.2 kills

 

--Veteran Sergeant at Init 1

---3 Attacks

----Average 1.5 Hits

-----Average 1.25 kills

 

------6.45 kills from CC

 

-------15.11 kills on the assault

 

 

 

Orks in return (when charged)

 

-Hand-to-Hand

--42 Attacks at Init 2

---Average 21 Hits

----Average 7 Wounds (note: no Risk to the three important models)

-----Average 2.33 Kills

 

--3 Attacks at Init1

---Average 1.5 Hits

----Average 1.25 Wounds

-----No Saves

 

------Total 3.5 kills

 

 

Orks lose combat by 3, leaving them on roughly 12 members remaining after No Retreat!, but with only 6 or 7 Marines facing them... Odds are, both units end up wrecked as fighting forces

 

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

If the enemy comes on in a great horde, as Orks are wont to do, then try to direct them into a narrow defile or enclosed space, such that their numbers work against them. Crowded together those at the front will impede those behind, whilst the push from the rear will prevent those at the front from retreating or finding a better path.

[Br.Pat]

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

What do you mean by this, Koremu?

[Allgame]

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

What do you mean by this, Koremu?

 

 

I believe what Koremu means is that if a Tacticle squad rapid fires the mob before the assault marines charge, the mob will be decimated while the marines will suffer few casualties. Also a Space Marine player can focus more firepower into a single area than the orks can, use this to crush them.

[Ming]

Re-run the math with the orks actually shooting the big shootas (or not having them at all) on the run, starting 24 inches away, and being spread correctly so the flamers can't get 6 hits each, instead 3 or 4. Thing get bad quickly. Throw in a 3-Kan wall (hey 2 units on 2 units), and the assault marines and tacs now are less effective with ork boyz getting 4 plus cover saves till they get real close. The assault marines stick the boot in...and then the Kans arrive...and then the tacs find they have to also charge in, or get back, or change their fire to support the reduction of the next incoming mob. In four turns you have a bunch of orks playing soccer with marine helmets...

 

Not is all lost though. I've been fighting orks enough to tell you some good news: (1) not all orks use 30-boy mobs or kan walls. (2) There are proponents out there for marine lists not using more than 2 tac squads, never using scouts, and instead using more assault, sternguard, demi-devs, and terminator units, with combiweapons on every sergeant (flamers if you expect hordes, or meltas if you expect vehicles and MCs), and razorbacks for all to bolster the thin blue/red/yellow/green/black line...

[Koremu]

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

What do you mean by this, Koremu?

 

 

I believe what Koremu means is that if a Tacticle squad rapid fires the mob before the assault marines charge, the mob will be decimated while the marines will suffer few casualties. Also a Space Marine player can focus more firepower into a single area than the orks can, use this to crush them.

There's that, but there's the fact that large units of Orks tend to get in each others way. That's the real problem that doesn't show up much on the math regarding true horde armies. Moving 30+ models as a single unit is quite difficult, space-wise, on many tables. Any kind of terrain more or less forces you to take DT tests, which slows (and bunches) your mob up more for the blasts and templates...

 

Orks are the real sufferers in these terms. BIG armies don't tend to move, and 'nids get Move Through Cover

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Ok its been a while since this was continued, lets keep it moving with tyranids!

 

Anyone care to have a go?

[Koremu]

Ok its been a while since this was continued, lets keep it moving with tyranids!

 

Anyone care to have a go?

Carnifex are trash this edition. T6, 3+, no invuln

 

BAAS can reasonably take 2 wounds + whatever the Sgt carries on the assault, meaning that (with pre-charge fire), the BAAS can kill a 'fex before it ever gets to strike.

 

Even against most Squads, the Carnifex doesn't have the volume of attacks to kill enough guys fast enough to justify its points.

[Br.Pat]

I can honestly say I think tyranids got nerfed in their latest edition.

 

They are a typical horde army, and in my honest opinion gaunts are even worse than ork boyz because they don't have furious charge.

 

The monstrous creatures have many wounds but with enough high powered weaponry (especially, long-range).. they should go down quickly.

[Jackelope King]

There's some real confusion out there about the new Tyranids Codex.

 

Please point an army that can put 60 Toughness 6 3+ save wounds on the table at 2000 points other than Tyranids.

 

*crickets*

 

And in a balanced 2000 point list, 40+ T6 3+ save wounds is not at all unreasonable.

 

Tyranids also now have something they've lacked since... well... forever. A good long-ranged firebase. Scarily enough, one that can just stroll up to you, shooting the whole time, and then beat your face in. Tyranofex, Hive Guard, Harpies... all a lot nastier than most folks give them credit for. They'll never win in a long-ranged shooting match, to be sure. But they don't need to. They just need to be able to keep up and threaten transports. And now they even get plenty of options for keeping up. While more throwaway units than Thunderwolves, Gargoyles and Raveners both fill that roll of lightning-quick assault elements that allow an otherwise foot force to react quickly to the enemy. And they have an altogether different face with massed Warriors backed up by large nasties like Trygons

 

A properly-built Tyranid list will force you to make hard choices. Do you shoot that Krak missile at a Warrior brood and instant death a model, or put what might be a critical wound on a Hive Tyrand with Paroxysm and Leech Essence who's bearing down on your lines? Focus fire on the Feel No Pain Gaunts who will be able to assault next turn, or try to take out the Tervigon which is giving them Feel No Pain (and they're not as easy to pop as a Blood Angel Sanguinary Priest)?

 

To beat them, you need to protect and maintain your mobility. Prioritize on reducing the number of threats you deal with each turn. This usually means killing their firebase (though shooting up Hive Guard can be hard when they completely hide behind a wall or building, totally out of line of sight, and Tyranofex are stupidly hard to kill, 6 T6 wounds with a 2+ save on top). Feed units to the Nids to slow their advance. Delay the big bugs, kill the bugs that can threaten you from range, then turn your attention to dropping the nastiest big bugs. I've won games against Tyranids which I've completely botched up early and/or been screwed by the dice entirely because I was able to maintain mobility, and outrun the bugs.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Tyranids

 

How they play:

 

Tyranids are another hoarde army similar to orks, which means more of the same thing. Poor armour and a desire to close the gap quickly. Tyranids are a tough hoarde but can pack better shooting than orks and a wider myriad of monsters as they incorporate a variety of different monsters for different jobs, but the bulk of their army will be in the termagants and hormagaunts.

 

Strengths:

Tyranids have a decent myriad of creatures for different jobs, but being heavily dependent on numbers you'll find that they are decent CC fighters, of course a large creature such as the Hive Tyrant is going to be bad news for whatever it drops down on and may prove a match for even our space marine captains. Genestealers can treat our armour as if it doesn't exist and warriors can prove a fearsome match. Also Tyranids are not totally inept at a range and can use Zoanthropes or Biovores and masses of fire to crush down on some of your units. The army can move fast and keep up a decent rate of fire and then tear you down with weight of numbers in close combat. Tyranids also have access to mycetic spores that fill in a role similar to that of a drop pod and will allow tyranids to drop right in on top of your back line units, several other units can also deepstrike their way toward your units so watch out!

 

Weaknesses:

 

Tyranids lack any form of transport so suffer from the shortfall of having to walk to close the distance. In some ways this is mitigated by the fact that they have the fleet of foot special rule so they can move very fast towards you, however it still means there is chance to thing their numbers before they get to you. They also have synapse creatures which when removed can be very problematic for maintaing your army.

 

Things to watch for:

 

Genestealers - These creatures rip through armour almost as if it wasn't there, be careful when engaging these creatures as you'll want to keep them away from anything you want to survive.

 

Tervigon - This thing can spawn out lots of termagants in an unending stream that'll be tough to deal with, dealing with the monster will damage termagants around it, so it is worth getting rid of it before it can deliver much of an impact on the battle

[Chengar Qordath]

Monstrous army - Tyranids can field numerous carnifexes as elites and heavy support.

I'm pretty sure that's no longer the case with their new codex. There is no mention of such an option anywhere in their unit entry.

[mowglie]

Also Orks shooting is poor

 

That's not entirely true.

 

ONE Ork's shooting is poor, certainly, and they definitely lack any reasonable means of dealing with AV13+ at range, but don't be fooled. Shoota boys and lootas in particular point-for-point put out levels of firepower that the SM codices can only dream of.

 

Don't discount their shooting phase just because they need 5s to hit.

 

It would be accurate to say that they lose extended shooting exchanges if you catch them in the open, but that's much more to do with their lack of armor save than to do with their lack of firepower.

 

Charging them is good advice.

 

You can also split up the green tide with e.g. your rhinos so you can take on one mob at a time with a much more concentrated portion of your own force.

[chaplain belisarius]

my orks are great at shooting-everything counts in large amounts! :)

[Captain Idaho]

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

What do you mean by this, Koremu?

 

 

I believe what Koremu means is that if a Tacticle squad rapid fires the mob before the assault marines charge, the mob will be decimated while the marines will suffer few casualties. Also a Space Marine player can focus more firepower into a single area than the orks can, use this to crush them.

 

Space Marines should do that as a principle against many opponents. It's very good adice!

[Hellios]

Now, if you Rapid Fired a Tactical Squad into the Orks before the Assault squad hit home, that would tip the balance... which just goes to show how the way to deal with large horde armies is to selectively crush portions of the force which the others can't get near you for their own men.

 

What do you mean by this, Koremu?

 

 

I believe what Koremu means is that if a Tacticle squad rapid fires the mob before the assault marines charge, the mob will be decimated while the marines will suffer few casualties. Also a Space Marine player can focus more firepower into a single area than the orks can, use this to crush them.

 

Space Marines should do that as a principle against many opponents. It's very good adice!

 

As it goes... somewhere along the lines of if your troops are better and smaller in number than your enemy... force his troops into narrow areas where only a few can fight you at a time... If it is the reverse then you want to stretch your enemy out so you can overwhelm them (certain small fast armys also want to do this also because they have the speed to overwhelm one part of a army and then move onto the next part...)