Why the Razorback love?

[Angelust]

Hey all,

 

Finally getting my Blood Angels out again after about a year long 40k hiatus, and I've been acquainting myself with the 2010 BA codex for the last month or so.

 

I was somewhat surprised to see a lot of comments floating around the interwebz about increased Razorback usage for more competitive BA lists.

 

This interested me, as I originally made Razorbacks instead of Rhinos when I first put together my BA army, but 5th edition really led me more towards the Rhino with full 10-man tactical squads (with the option to combat squad).

 

Has there been a general shift in mech-meta, or is it the fact that BA RBs are fast, or the fact that RAS get a nifty discount on their transports that has led to this?

 

i.e. Why is a 5-man RAS unit with a Razorback w/ Heavy flamer a more competitive option than, say, a 10-man unit with a rhino and the option to combat squad?

 

Any discussion would be very informative for me.

 

 

*Note - My search-fu is weak, and razorback searches seem to bring lots of threads up, sorry in advance if this has already been beaten to death*

[Brother Nihm]

Has there been a general shift in mech-meta, or is it the fact that BA RBs are fast, or the fact that RAS get a nifty discount on their transports that has led to this?

All of the above I'd say, and the fact that RB's are cheap and have guns (as opposed to Rhinos). Rhinos aren't bad at all mind you, but RB's are more nasty on the field, imho. ;)

 

i.e. Why is a 5-man RAS unit with a Razorback w/ Heavy flamer a more competitive option than, say, a 10-man unit with a rhino and the option to combat squad?

The flamer ignores cover and re-rolls failed to wound rolls (twin-linked), that's huge, especially where I play where we have a lot of terrain.

[Angelust]

I can see how that would be useful (TL-HF).

 

Are TL-heavy Bolter options generally poor choices for RBs? Back before my magnetism skills emerged, I assembled my RB turret as HB thinking that I would always use them.

 

Come to think of it, I do have Baal Pred flamer sponsons lying around somewhere....

[BrotherMoses]

Yeah, I used to generally believe that razorbacks shouldn't be used often and I generally just gave my HQ one, but I've been more open to the idea of them here lately. They're a good way to get in some antitank or antiinfantry and they can still fire and move very well. Plus they're super cheap. Check this list out with razorbacks:

 

HQ Captain with storm bolter and lightning claw

Honour Guard with Blood champion and standard bearer. Rhino transport

 

Elites 8 man sternguard in a drop pod with fist sergeant and 2 combi melta vets. Locator beacon in the pod

 

Elites 3x Sanguinary Priests

 

Fast Attack 8 man Vanguard w/ jump packs. 1 w/ storm shield 1 w/ thunderhammer and 3 w/ power weapons

 

2x assault squads in razorbacks with either twin linked lascannons or lascannon/twin linked plasma gun turrets

 

 

That list leaves me with 117 pts to spend however I please. Thats kind of cool. Atleast I think so. BTW I'm accepting critique on this list here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=209458 if you have any constructive input.

[Arschbombe]

I'd been advocating and using razorbacks for several years under the old PDF codex. I used them with tactical squads, however, because the assault squads couldn't get special weapons back then. I liked the razorbacks because they were a substitute for the heavy weapon in the 10 man squad, gave me a discount on the death company, and with two 5-man squads I could have two specials and two sergeants with fist or power weapon. Razorbacks are relatively fragile so I've only ever run them with the heavy bolters.

 

I think what shifted the meta towards the razorbacks currently is the changes in the SW and BA codices that allows small squads access to special weapons without being a full 10-man squad like in the vanilla dex. The BA dex does this more than the SW dex because of the discount the assault squad gets when it trades its jump packs for the razorback. The vanilla dex drives you towards the rhino because you have to take 10 men to get the special and then it gives you a heavy as well. The rhino can take the whole squad and has the firing points to allow the special and heavy to fire. You can still combat squad, of course, but the rhino gives more flexibility to the 10-man squad than the razorback does. The razor in this case means always having to combat squad or forgo using the razorback as a transport.

[BigBaals]

You nailed it on the head. It is the combination of the 35 point discount from RAS and Fast moving tanks with great choices for weaponry. I didn't run Razorbacks in our AdobeDex. I did the same thing that you did, 10 man TAC in a Rhino. I've only played a handful of games with the new dex, but I haven't lost yet believe it or not. My razorbacks are almost the unsung heroes and tend to get ignored by my opponents in every game. Here's what I roll with:

 

Libby/JP

 

10x RAS MGx2 PF

10x RAS MGx2 PF

5x RAS MG PW Razor/Assault Cannon/Hunter Killer

5x RAS MG PW Razor/Assault Cannon/Hunter Killer

 

Baal +HB

Baal +HB

Vanguard Vets x8 JP, LC, PW, PF

 

Pread AC/LC

Pread AC/LC

 

Priest JP/PW

Priest (can't remember if this one has a PW or not)

 

Immediately my opponents see 6 tanks on the field, and the Baals take priority #1 because the pre-turn 1 Scout move gets them in range to do some major damage. My Preads take out any long range anti-tank mech my opponent has on turn one, and from the rear my Razors creep up for either a HK shot or a AC servo at my opponents Elite/HQ/Tank types. Again, after the Baals do there damage, and the regular Preads blow a tank up, the Razors get priority #3. That's just turn 1.

 

Turn 2 goes like this (thank you Decent of Angels). Vanguard Vets drop near globs of troops (or something big like a Mawloc). Whatever will shock my opponent. RASx10 with Priest/Libby in tow drop nearby to ensure that the VV get a Furious Charge and Feel No Pain. 1d6 scatter FTW! Guess what just became priority #1 after that Vanguard drops and destroys it's target? Now my tanks are in the clear to absolutely destroy and my opponent is on the defensive since there are roughly 18 Feel No Pain Marines with Lightning Claws, Power Fists, and Power weapons, on top of a Librarian and Priest with PW in his face. The only time any damage is done to my razorbacks is when I roll a difficult terrain and immobilize myself. My second RASx10 popped a devilfish or some such Tau thing with a big rail gun one game.. that's all they ever have to do. Drop down, destroy target... hop to objective and take a nap. I've been kicking around dropping them for Sanguinary Guard, but I digress.

 

Razorbacks are amazing, I'm glad I sold a couple Rhinos and picked them up instead. The Assault Cannons are bar none the best weapon we have, and the hunter killers have done there fair share.

[Angelust]

Hm, aren't assault cannon RBs pushing into predator territory? For that kinda price, we could take autocannon preds w/ HB sponsons, or squadrons of Typhoons/Tornados.

 

The price-point seems to kill it for me, unless you're trying to overload the enemy with AV targets.

 

Isn't the current meta quite prepared for Mech though? i.e. lotsa autocannons, meltas, and missile launchers? I just figured cheaper was better when possible.

[Brother Nathan]

yea b they are essientially getting that upgrade for free with the whole discount from assault squads loosing packs. Anyway i think the thing is razors suit our 5men squads better as there is still space abord and we wont be buying more men as you get no futher discount and still pay full price for each marine. and due to being fast a razor will, move up to 18 inches first turn, popsmoke, then next turn the squad will charge out hopefully into a nice fleshy squad, supported by the firepower of the razor a they would then usually serve little purpose after unloading if they were rhinos... well mobile cover. but they can move 12 inches and still fire. thats goodenough to be operational and a threat. only way a rhino is really better is size and the repair rule which is so often forgotten about, for barely any price difference...

[SamaNagol]

For the Blood Angels, Assault Cannon RBs effectively cost around 50pts with the discount, and they can move 12, fire at full strength and capture objectives. they present threats to AV14 vehicles and Troops alike.

 

Thay are superb.