TWC vs. ...everything else.

[Valerian]

I was curious, and so I will ask; have you tried using TWC or ThunderLord? You may find them so outrageously enjoyable that after proxying them for a few games, you might want them enough to buy them....? :)

 

Hi MW. To answer your question, no I haven't bothered using either a TWC unit, or a Thunderlord. I'm sure they are effective, and would certainly add new level of fun to the game in playing such a unit, but I'm really just not all that interested in them. First, there aren't any official models, although there are some pretty good third-party models. If I were going to bother with them, I'll wait until GW produces some, and only if they are on plastic sprues. Second, I'm still ambivilant about the fluff; I don't absolutely hate the idea, but I don't love it either. Simply put, I just haven't made up my mind on whether I approve of the idea of Marines riding Wolves, regardless of how monstrous they are and how "plausible" it might be in the 40K universe. Third, and probably most importantly, I've been playing Ragnar Blackmane's Great Company for almost 18 years now, so I've already got a Wolf Lord, and there isn't room for another in my/his Great Company. I'm also perfectly satisfied with my ability to effectively assault enemy forces and win close combats.

 

 

I tried to point this out to the OP earlier, but there are plenty of great units out there that can destroy enemy forces in close combat; some of them are even Scoring, and can sieze and/or secure Objectives, which TWC cannot do.

 

I'll admit I'm a little unclear on what you were actually proposing as a substitute for 24 S5 Rending attacks, eight wounds, a couple invulnerable saves, wound allocation shenanigans, and 18+D6 charge range for around 250 points. My position is that nothing else in the codex comes close; it either lacks the killing power (Skyclaws) or requires dedicated transport that effectively doubles its cost (everything else).

 

Khavos, if you want to try to build a unit that is equally as effective as a TWC pack for the same amount of points, you might not be able to do it. They really are a pretty good deal for the 250 points, and you just listed all/most of their advantages. That being said, we've still got lots of good assault options (as many have pointed out) that are equally viable for your army. You've already stated that you don't like the idea of TWC, ... to be continued. Gotta run, will edit later.

 

 

V

[Khavos]

Second, I'm still ambivilant about the fluff; I don't absolutely hate the idea, but I don't love it either.

 

I actively hate it, myself.

 

Khavos, if you want to try to build a unit that is equally as effective as a TWC pack for the same amount of points, you might not be able to do it. They really are a pretty good deal for the 250 points, and you just listed all/most of their advantages. That being said, we've still got lots of good assault options (as many have pointed out) that are equally viable for your army. You've already stated that you don't like the idea of TWC, ... to be continued. Gotta run, will edit later.

 

The way I look at it is thusly: with the vanilla Codex, I could build a fantastic assault unit in Vanguard Veterans. Just as killy and just as durable as TH/SS Terminators. However, they would be far, far overpriced for what they did compared to the TH/SS Terminators, so they're not a realistic option.

 

Similarly, I could tool out WG to be absolute CC monsters. They unquestionably require transport, however, and when you factor that in, it quickly becomes apparent that just taking TWC is the better option in terms of effectively spending points.

[Grey Mage]

The way I look at it is thusly: with the vanilla Codex, I could build a fantastic assault unit in Vanguard Veterans. Just as killy and just as durable as TH/SS Terminators. However, they would be far, far overpriced for what they did compared to the TH/SS Terminators, so they're not a realistic option.

 

Similarly, I could tool out WG to be absolute CC monsters. They unquestionably require transport, however, and when you factor that in, it quickly becomes apparent that just taking TWC is the better option in terms of effectively spending points.

And that is where your wrong- cheapest doesnt always equal best.

 

TWC can be downed completely from a single round of lasgun fire due to a failed fleet roll. They can be lashed or pavaned into their deaths. Their bases are large enough to make it difficult for enemies to miss with template weapons, of wich there are a frightening number. They have little if any answer to coming up again Terminators- with an average of 1 rending wound per two TWC, saved against a 3+ and the others against a 2+.... they simply dont hit hard enough to do the job.

 

Adding a Lord helps, and helps alot to be honest- but it also adds almost the price of a landraider to the squad and only gains them 3 more wounds, while simultaneously giving them even larger of a 'kill me now' sign.

 

For about 40pts more the WG Squad in a LR is more effective against move- though not all- enemies youll ever face.

 

Worried about meltaguns? Kill them. Worried about Railcannons? Kill them too. This is nothing new, and nothing your TWC wouldnt have to worry about either. With good target priority its easier to remove the threats to a landraider then it is to T5 and 2 wounds- or does no one in your area know how to kill Nob Bikerz either?

 

Perhaps its just to expensive for you? Then put them in a rhino and run a pair of vindicators for interference. A rolling wall of AV 14 death does alot to take the heat off your expensive infantry unit. Or if you prefer break them into two units, assuming you have the elite choices, and run HQs in Razorbacks to supplement your Vindies. Take a Rune Priest with Stormcaller, give all 4 vehicles a reliable cover save right out in the open.

 

Anything if not supported properly will die, and die without much satisfaction. If you truely hate TWC so much then stand up for yourself and find another way- there are plenty of them out there.

[Khavos]

And that is where your wrong- cheapest doesnt always equal best.

 

TWC can be downed completely from a single round of lasgun fire due to a failed fleet roll. They can be lashed or pavaned into their deaths. Their bases are large enough to make it difficult for enemies to miss with template weapons, of wich there are a frightening number. They have little if any answer to coming up again Terminators- with an average of 1 rending wound per two TWC, saved against a 3+ and the others against a 2+.... they simply dont hit hard enough to do the job.

 

Adding a Lord helps, and helps alot to be honest- but it also adds almost the price of a landraider to the squad and only gains them 3 more wounds, while simultaneously giving them even larger of a 'kill me now' sign.

 

All fair points, though the expensive Lord is in the list whether or not there's a Land Raider involved, so I consider him a wash.

 

Worried about meltaguns? Kill them. Worried about Railcannons? Kill them too. This is nothing new, and nothing your TWC wouldnt have to worry about either. With good target priority its easier to remove the threats to a landraider then it is to T5 and 2 wounds- or does no one in your area know how to kill Nob Bikerz either?

 

To be honest, that does play a part in it. People know how to kill Nob Bikerz, but nobody runs them, so nobody really fits for it, whereas suicide melta speeders are a dime a dozen.

 

Perhaps its just to expensive for you? Then put them in a rhino and run a pair of vindicators for interference. A rolling wall of AV 14 death does alot to take the heat off your expensive infantry unit. Or if you prefer break them into two units, assuming you have the elite choices, and run HQs in Razorbacks to supplement your Vindies. Take a Rune Priest with Stormcaller, give all 4 vehicles a reliable cover save right out in the open.

 

It's only too expensive in the sense that it's usually all you can afford in terms of assault units until you start getting into the 2000+ territory; the primary reason I ditched C:SM was due to the fact that running one LR with an assault unit inside was its only real assault flavor, too.

 

As for running them in a non-LR, I'll freely admit that I'm not good enough to pull off assault units in non-assault transports.

 

Anything if not supported properly will die, and die without much satisfaction. If you truely hate TWC so much then stand up for yourself and find another way- there are plenty of them out there.

 

There are other options, yeah, but they revolve around LR delivery, which doesn't end up playing any differently from standard Codex lists, which is what I was attempting to get away from with Space Wolves.

 

Much as I hate their fluff, I'm seriously starting to wonder if I shouldn't go with Blood Angels. It would solve a lot of my issues with Space Wolves: ability to create successor chapters, a full-on assault focus, usable jump packers. The big drawback is their non-SC captains suck.

[Blitzkreig]

For the way I play, they dont need a Land Raider... a Drop Pod is more than sufficient for what I need them to do.

 

500 pts for a unit with Infantry move, even after Podding them down close to them enemy does not seem very good to me.

You are obviously having success with it, so I wont dismiss it out of hand, but here is what I am thinking....

 

1] You Pod into the guts of the enemy force using DP-Assault. You get mugged by nearly all the enemies force.

 

2 i] You Pod onto a flank of the enemy, so you don't get shot to heaven. The enemy then falls back from that flank [either by transport or running]

Your 500 pt unit gets shot at by the rest of his force and still loses quite a few dudes. And cannot assault him T2.

2 ii] He gives you a cheap unit*, fans them out right in front of you. Your next turn you cannot really go around them without being very inefficient in gaining ground. All this going around allows the rest of his guys to shoot you, whilst you go around them. And then he does the same thing again with the cheap unit.

2 iii] *Or perhaps a Rhino. If you blow up the Rhino, you could even lose a couple of WG to a 50 pt box. Then have to walk through difficult terrain.

2 iv] You assault the cheap unit. Because they are right in your face, you only gain a few inches. You consolidate d6". You have covered, say, 6" in you T2. Then the rest of his army lights you up....

 

3] You don't use DP Assault [having more Pods]. You hope your 500 pt unit comes down at a time that coincides with the rest of your dudes hitting home.

Having a 500 pt unit off the table for T1 and not doing anything useful T2, but getting shot at does not seem good to me.

Add in failed reserves rolls and your unit will probably turn up T3, and start killing stuff on T4? but what if your foe plays like a coward [or Tau in this case :D ] and runs away from your unit? You'll only start killing stuff on T5 [if at all]

Not very good if the game ends on T5 or T6....

 

The Raider gives you the chance to assault on T2 [T1 ~ 12", T2 ~ assault 21" = 33"] and go straight into combat [without getting shot to bits]

 

I killed 500 pts of Warboss+Nobz+Painboy+Zagwort in one turn when they DSed close to my Templars with shooting and assault from 1K pts. I think 13 Meq wounds would be even easier to destroy....

 

I hope I have not come across as mean or trolling in my response, these are just genuine thoughts I am having. What do you think?

 

You did not come off as mean or trolling, so thats all good. But you did show me just why my unit works so well. I don't use what most people consider "solid" tactics.... I don't rely on my Assault units coming down in turn 1 from DP Assault, I rely on my other units to limit enemy mobility followed up the assault units dropping in.

 

I play VERY aggresively and the Drop Pod style of fighting perfectly suits that.

[Simo429]

I love using them but get a little annoyed that people call them so over powered. Played against a demon army and my two squad of long fangs took out two greater demons (khorne and nurgle) and 2demon princes with the gift of nurgle and yet it was my thunderwolves who charged a very depleted unit of blood crushers and charged a unit of nurglings that had lost half their number to bolter fire.

[Grey Mage]

Meh, 90% of the assault capabilities I need I can find in GHs, about the only thing thats a solid danger to an equal point value of GHs is a few rare death star units with furious charge.

 

I think thats one reason Ill never play BA, and why I rarely play C:SM.... my GHs are versatile, tough, and capable.

 

Ive ran Bloodclaws+WP in a 1500pt fight, and I find them quite capable, and they dont take much from the army- the LRC has slightly better shooting then a GH squad, more armor then a rhino, and can handle a multi-assault on 30 tactical equivalents without issue. It also lets my 20 GHs operate without any real harassment.

 

Another good assault unit I find- if your running WGPLs anyways- is 5 WG TDA, 1x AC+PF, 1x AC+LC, 1xPF+SS, 1xSP+PW, 1xLC+SS. Its a little pricey, and I cringe in how fragile it is compared to the good old days... but then, in the good ol days I had a similar unit DP in front of 2kpts of tau- and take not a scratch after taking every last gun they had. And of course, bringing them in via DP can actually save alot of bacon- theyll tear up any light-medium armor or heavy weapon team you can name, and preferably will get some cover from the hulk of their slain enemy.

[Khavos]

Meh, 90% of the assault capabilities I need I can find in GHs, about the only thing thats a solid danger to an equal point value of GHs is a few rare death star units with furious charge.

 

I think thats one reason Ill never play BA, and why I rarely play C:SM.... my GHs are versatile, tough, and capable.

 

Ive ran Bloodclaws+WP in a 1500pt fight, and I find them quite capable, and they dont take much from the army- the LRC has slightly better shooting then a GH squad, more armor then a rhino, and can handle a multi-assault on 30 tactical equivalents without issue. It also lets my 20 GHs operate without any real harassment.

 

Another good assault unit I find- if your running WGPLs anyways- is 5 WG TDA, 1x AC+PF, 1x AC+LC, 1xPF+SS, 1xSP+PW, 1xLC+SS. Its a little pricey, and I cringe in how fragile it is compared to the good old days... but then, in the good ol days I had a similar unit DP in front of 2kpts of tau- and take not a scratch after taking every last gun they had. And of course, bringing them in via DP can actually save alot of bacon- theyll tear up any light-medium armor or heavy weapon team you can name, and preferably will get some cover from the hulk of their slain enemy.

 

All perfectly fine points. I don't know, though, I'm just really starting to reconsider it all. I'm just not as big a fan of shooting armies as I am of assaulting armies, and Space Wolves are really more of a shooting army that's comfortable in CC than a CC army that's comfortable shooting. Plus, as minor a consideration as it might seem, I could actually make a DIY with the BAs rather than having to come up with tortuous Lost Company fluff.

 

Dunno if I can turn away from Wolf Lords, though. They can just be made too damn good.

[Valerian]

All perfectly fine points. I don't know, though, I'm just really starting to reconsider it all. I'm just not as big a fan of shooting armies as I am of assaulting armies, and Space Wolves are really more of a shooting army that's comfortable in CC than a CC army that's comfortable shooting. Plus, as minor a consideration as it might seem, I could actually make a DIY with the BAs rather than having to come up with tortuous Lost Company fluff.

 

Dunno if I can turn away from Wolf Lords, though. They can just be made too damn good.

 

Okay, I'm back. Sorry that I wasn't able to finish my post last night, but it looks like GM interjected with most of what I was going to say anyway.

 

On your latest post here, though, I have a few additional thoughts to add for you to consider:

 

First, Space Wolves are by far the more versatile and flexible army. Most of our unit choices can shoot well, when you need to shoot, and they can assault well when you need to assault. We like to fight in the "Red Zone" to use an American Football term.

 

Second, I have over 3,000 points of both Space Wolves and Blood Angels. I havn't even bothered to play a single game with my Blood Angels since their 5th Edition codex was released back in the spring, as I just haven't been that inspired by them. I have played against Blood Angels, however, and won every game handedly (against different opponents) with a fairly simple Space Wolves list (that did not use any Thunderwolf Cavalry, by the way). Unfortunately, Blood Angels in this edition are fairly one-dimensional. They are geared toward close combat, and simply have to get into assaults quickly to make their plans work. Space Wolves, on the other hand, are free to do whatever is necessary to win the game. Additionally, if you can steal the assault from the Blood Angels (which isn't all that hard to do), then they are actually much weaker in close combat than your basic Grey Hunters are. I've had Wolf Scouts (a larger pack, and geared toward close combat), destroy a Blood Angels Tactical Squad and two Assault Squads, and seize their Objective - which is quite embarrasing for a Chapter that is supposed to be good at fighting in close combat.

 

You mentioned earlier that you don't like the fact that a dedicated assault unit (that isn't TWC), really needs a Land Raider transport to be effective. Unless you are using Swift Claws or Sky Claws (which come with their own tactical mobility), then I agree with you. That is what the Land Raider is designed for, however. It is an AV14 all-around Assault Vehicle, so yeah, that it what it is meant for. Who cares, if using one is a lot like using one in a Codex Space Marines army. Until we get some other dedicated Assault transport (like a Stormraven or something), then a Land Raider is where it's at. Other armies may be all armed to take down mech, but even so, it is still not easy to take out a Land Raider. Out of 6 games this summer I only lost my Land Raider once, and that was because I left it vulnerable to a Farseer's Witchblade, when I shouldn't have; and that was with only a single vehicle (other than a Dreadnought) in the whole army. Additionally, Land Raiders may be an expensive option, but in addition to their ability to transport your assault unit in safety, and their great survivability, they also provide a formidable offensive capability. I use a regular Land Raider Phobos, and with the 10 point Multi-melta upgrade and the two twin-linked Lascannon, it remains a real threat to enemy units. Unlike a Rhino, once the assault unit disembarks, a Land Raider can continue to contribute in a real way to your plans.

 

Ultimately, however, I think it all comes down to going with the army that you feel more closely tied to. If they represent your personality better, then go with the Blood Angels. If you think you've got the heart of the wolf, however, then plant your banner here at the Fang.

 

Regards,

 

V