Night Lords using Space Wolves codex

[Flower]

Hey all,

 

I was just wondering if I made an army using the Space Wolves codex, but modeled them as the Night Lords, if that would be legal. I'm sure I could use them in casual games, but what about tournaments?

[ORKILL]

*Facepalm*

[wolf363839]

WYSIWYG typically rules at tournaments.

 

It's your kiddie pool, pee in it if you want to.

[Flower]

Why the negative reaction? Just curious.

[JamesI]

Flower, some tournaments will not allow that. Others will have no problem with it (I've played in a tournament with an Ork army that uses IG rules, never played against that player though).

 

So a lot depends on where you intend to play. I'd suggest if you do this, make sure you contact any tournament organizer in advance and be prepared in case they say no.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

you legally can.

 

tastefully, you cant.

 

WLK

[Flower]

Flower, some tournaments will not allow that. Others will have no problem with it (I've played in a tournament with an Ork army that uses IG rules, never played against that player though).

 

So a lot depends on where you intend to play. I'd suggest if you do this, make sure you contact any tournament organizer in advance and be prepared in case they say no.

 

 

Thank you for the response! Due to the fact that I won't always be able to use them, I'll just stick with the Chaos Space Marines codex. ^_^

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

its perfectly legal and there is absolutely nothing against it. anyone who even gives a negative response generally will be wrong in this and unless the to is just a complete anal retentive person then they will not stop it.

 

i wouldnt see the wolves as a decent representation for the night lords although blood angels would do a good job.

[Sharpsilver]

Perhaps use the Chaos Space Marine Codex to represent your Night Lords?

 

The whole notion of 'Using X as Y' astounds me, especially in these situations, when it doesn't really work fluffy.

 

If you want to use the Space Wolves dex' for it's power, then go the full yard and use them as Space Wolves. In tournaments you'll probably get dirty looks left right and centre.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

because chaos space marines is a terrible codex. hell get dirty looks alone for bringing space wolves to tournaments simply because everyone else brings them. hell bolscon alone had 50 out of 170 playing mech guard, space wolves, and blood angels. i literally took one walk through during a break and counted at least 29 space wolves, 13 of which ran thunderlords. the armies that go outside the box always garner the oohs and awws. i dont think many players actually care what your army looks like or is played as as long as it is generally understandable (meaning this melta is actually a flamer but these meltas over here count as meltas (understand?)). i think you count too many people closed minded.

 

heck the guy that used orks as a count as ig at bolscon was considered awesome and the mecha tyranid guy (or as my friend called them the cyber donkeys) could have been used as orks, nids, daemons (and necrons i think he said) count as if it looks good will always works. except for blood letters they just dont seem to work well.

[Skalver]

Generally I would say if you want to play a "counts as" list then you need to make sure that there is a fairly obvious correlation between the units in your army and the codex.

 

I could see a World Eaters counts as list working pretty well with the Space Wolf codex, use Juggernauts (or I guess we have to call them Blood Crushers these days) for thunderwolf cavalry, flesh hounds as fenrisian wolves, assorted berzerkers as the various Space Wolf squads etc.

 

I would say the Blood Angels list would probably work better for Night Lords if you are intent on not using the CSM codex. Lots of Jump Packs, the Red Thirst rule works well with the general indiscipline and random violence of the Night Lords while you can easily use some Posessed models for Death Company. This would seem to fit more with the battle style of the Night Lords than C:SW does. Night Lords were supposedly the first marines to use Jump Packs and embraced that style of combat. I don't know how you would represent that in a SW force where Jump Packs really aren't all that strong a choice.

[Flower]

Isn't the extensive use of jump packs in the Night Lords a new development in their fluff? If that is true, couldn't I utilize their earlier fluff to justify using the Space Wolves codex with the them? I'm not going to use it, I'm just curious. I'm going to use the Chaos Space Marines codex so people don't give me a hard time.

[Khavos]

Isn't the extensive use of jump packs in the Night Lords a new development in their fluff? If that is true, couldn't I utilize their earlier fluff to justify using the Space Wolves codex with the them? I'm not going to use it, I'm just curious. I'm going to use the Chaos Space Marines codex so people don't give me a hard time.

 

I don't know enough about the Night Lords to answer that. If GW somewhere published, "Oh yeah, btw, these guys suddenly started using jump packs a lot," then sure, that could work to represent a pre-jump pack era Night Lords force. If, however, an earlier edition of Night Lords fluff said, "These guys hate jump packs," but a newer edition of it says, "These guys love jump packs," then the newer edition cancels out the older edition. Just as Space Marines are no longer convicts bolted into their power armor or whatever Rogue Trader/1st Edition had them as.

 

For what it's worth, I'd have no problem with you using whatever SM codex you wanted to represent your chapter, Chaos or otherwise.

[Skalver]

Isn't the extensive use of jump packs in the Night Lords a new development in their fluff? If that is true, couldn't I utilize their earlier fluff to justify using the Space Wolves codex with the them? I'm not going to use it, I'm just curious. I'm going to use the Chaos Space Marines codex so people don't give me a hard time.

 

Checking through my back catalogue of Chaos Space Marine Codices the first mention I see of Night Lords making extensive use of Raptors is in the 2002 Codex. This is the first version of the codex that actually mentions how the Night Lords fight rather than the general description of their attitude that is in all the others, it is also the first one to include the different army lists for the seperate chaos legions.

 

Neither the 1999 nor the 1996 Chaos Codices make any mention of Night Lords having a propensity to emply assault troops generally or jump packs in particular (Raptors were first added in the 1999 book). It is possible this was referred to elsewhere. Strangely the Index Astartes article about the Night Lords published in 2003 also makes no mention of them using a lot of Jump Packs even though this was published after the 2002 codex (unless some of the dates I am seeing on the Codex books themselves are wrong).

 

So, the idea is about 8 years old in the Fluff, give or take. Not exactly ancient but its older than the Tau and the Necrons to give it some perspective.

[Wysten]

As long as the transfer is done tasterly, then I imagine it's fine.

 

Obiviously you want to stay away from using Thunder Wolf as that will draw quite negative attention. But to be honest, considering how weak the chaos space marines codex is, I think it's perfectly fine as long as serious effort is put into it. Which I don't doubt you will. Frankly I find it rediculous that the loyalists get so many codexes in compersion to space marines.

 

I have no idea about the night lords, the Space Wolves don't really do stealthy all that well though they are definately visious. Blood Angels seems to conbine the stealth and savagely quite finely together. Dropping loads of stealthy Assualt Troop guys behind their lines, hitting at tanks while the vanguards get the first strike. Stealthy and furiously brutal, that sounds quite like a night lord to me. Terror of swift strikes. Though obivously change stuff around and repersent your boys well and frankly it should not be their business what codex you are playing. There is nothing in the rules that only red can use blood angels, grey can use space wolves.

[Brother Nihm]

*Facepalm*

+

WYSIWYG typically rules at tournaments.

 

It's your kiddie pool, pee in it if you want to.

The Bolter & Chainsword promotes constructive discussion about all aspects of the Warhammer 40,000 hobby.

wolf363839 is right in that WYSIWYG rules, as long as you are 100% WYSIWYG compliant and you check with the organizers beforehand and inform your opponents about which rules you are using, then I don't think you'll have any problems.

 

you legally can.

 

tastefully, you cant.

 

WLK

I don't really understand this. We live in the golden age of counts as, would you refuse to play Dan the Daemon because he uses Obliterator Heavy Weapon Teams, Wraiths - counts as Thousand Sons etc. ?

Example: link

Sure he is using Codex Chaos Space Marines, but the units aren't really fluffy for a NL warband in the traditional sense unless explained through counts as - are they?

 

Also,

You guys do realize that C: SW rules-wise is closer to the older Night Lords fluff than the new one is, right?

Counter-attack = replaces veteran skills

Night Vision = Acute Senses

ATSKNF = replaces Icons of Chaos, which many puritan NL players don't use for fluff reasons, leaving their marines to run scared, something that really doesn't fit with being Night Lords..

 

As long as one doesn't field unfluffy stuff like Thundercannons (C:SM) and units like Thunderwolves of course, or use C:SW to abuse it. Except for using FW rules (which is a no go in most tournaments) how is a Night Lord player able to field Dreadclaw drop pods which is mentioned as being used in every Night Lord book so far?

 

Please don't bash someone for trying to be creative, especially given the bland and tasteless codex we Chaos players have currently been saddled with. :)

 

Isn't the extensive use of jump packs in the Night Lords a new development in their fluff? If that is true, couldn't I utilize their earlier fluff to justify using the Space Wolves codex with the them? I'm not going to use it, I'm just curious. I'm going to use the Chaos Space Marines codex so people don't give me a hard time.

 

Checking through my back catalogue of Chaos Space Marine Codices the first mention I see of Night Lords making extensive use of Raptors is in the 2002 Codex. This is the first version of the codex that actually mentions how the Night Lords fight rather than the general description of their attitude that is in all the others, it is also the first one to include the different army lists for the seperate chaos legions.

 

Neither the 1999 nor the 1996 Chaos Codices make any mention of Night Lords having a propensity to emply assault troops generally or jump packs in particular (Raptors were first added in the 1999 book). It is possible this was referred to elsewhere. Strangely the Index Astartes article about the Night Lords published in 2003 also makes no mention of them using a lot of Jump Packs even though this was published after the 2002 codex (unless some of the dates I am seeing on the Codex books themselves are wrong).

 

So, the idea is about 8 years old in the Fluff, give or take. Not exactly ancient but its older than the Tau and the Necrons to give it some perspective.

You're right, the whole Raptor/Jump Pack thing came with 4th edition. Before that Night Lords were all about overwhelming force, terror tactics (something that has never been represented well on the tabletop, outside of spamming Daemonic Visage maybe) and stealth.

 

@Flower

JamesI has it. Also know that it has been done before by others.

Outside of my local gaming group/area I know two people and one from the B&C who uses C:SW to represent their Night Lords, Lord_Caerolion is a member here. You can try sending him a PM to see if he has any experiences to share. There are many more who uses C:SM and C:BA however.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Flower]

I really appreciate your reply, Brother Nihm! I really do want to use C:SW, I was just discouraged after getting the inital reaction that I did. I figured if the nice folk of BolterandChainsword.com didn't approve, then most of my opponents wouldn't either. I think I will go with C:SW though!! :)

 

With that in mind, besides the things that have already been mentioned, what things from the codex should I probably not use? What things would you definitely use? What would you count them as? Haha, what forum should I post my army updates in?

[Grey Mage]

I dont think it fits as well as using C:BA would, but thats just my opinion.

 

From a modeling point of veiw, as long as the equipment is WYSIWYG and the units are easily distinguishable youll be fine.

 

Frankly though, theres not much id say you shouldnt use, assuming were talking post-heresy. Fenrisian Wolves make great daemon packs, WG work as well for pre-heresy style TDA as they do modern SWs. Grey Hunters have similar equipment to CSMs... etc etc.

 

Bloodclaws might be hard to sell... on the other hand, terror tactics, years of unholy rage..... yeah, you get the picture.

 

TWM'd Lord is even a good stand in for a Daemon Prince.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

you legally can.

 

tastefully, you cant.

 

WLK

 

If I see any OPs like this in the future, shall I tell them NO! and sign WLK? ;) :P :lol:

[Lord Ragnarok]

you legally can.

 

tastefully, you cant.

 

WLK

 

Opinions......everyone has them, which means no one person can dictate what or how you should think.

 

------------------------

 

I say as long as you are VERY clear with your opponent in casual games and your WYSIWYG is very accurate I see no problem.

 

I really appreciate your reply, Brother Nihm! I really do want to use C:SW, I was just discouraged after getting the inital reaction that I did. I figured if the nice folk of BolterandChainsword.com didn't approve, then most of my opponents wouldn't either. I think I will go with C:SW though!! smile.gif

 

With that in mind, besides the things that have already been mentioned, what things from the codex should I probably not use? What things would you definitely use? What would you count them as? Haha, what forum should I post my army updates in?

 

A better gauge would be your local hobby haunts. Check with some of the players locally what they will some accept. Around here we don't take ourselves too serious with count as. As long as you are very clear and don't try any shenanigans.

[Flower]

I have an idea of how I might represent a thunderwolf mounted lord. I would have a jump pack equipped lord, in which the jump pack is home to some daemon of the warp. The daemon grants the lord mutations so that the preservation of the daemon is more guaranteed. How's that?

[JamesI]

If you go by the old chaos codex, a thunderwolf would represent demonic strength and didn't one of the abilities grant move as cavalry (demonic speed perhaps?) Not sure how to represent the +1 wound/toughness by the old chaos dex though.

[Khavos]

I have an idea of how I might represent a thunderwolf mounted lord. I would have a jump pack equipped lord, in which the jump pack is home to some daemon of the warp. The daemon grants the lord mutations so that the preservation of the daemon is more guaranteed. How's that?

 

Out of curiosity, why would you wanna go jump packs with Space Wolves? Skyclaws...ain't that great.

 

Edit: Neeeevermind, I actually read what you said.

 

I think you could run into some WYSIWYG issues with that, because jump infantry and cavalry behave fairly differently.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I have an idea of how I might represent a thunderwolf mounted lord. I would have a jump pack equipped lord, in which the jump pack is home to some daemon of the warp. The daemon grants the lord mutations so that the preservation of the daemon is more guaranteed. How's that?

 

 

I think that is fine, but you may also want to go to the NL forum here at the B&C as they may have opinions on how far down the daemonic path you should go. (Although there is precedence in Night Lord novels).

[Legatus]

You guys do realize that C: SW rules-wise is closer to the older Night Lords fluff than the new one is, right?

I don't.

 

Counter-attack = replaces veteran skills

I wonder if there were many people giving "Counter-Attack" to their Chaos units with the 3.5 Codex.

 

Night Vision = Acute Senses

Yay, that one actually was a IA/3.5 Night Lords rule.

 

ATSKNF = replaces Icons of Chaos, which many puritan NL players don't use for fluff reasons, leaving their marines to run scared, something that really doesn't fit with being Night Lords..

ATSKNF never was fluffy for a Chaos Marine army, and lilely never will be. And that really is one of the major problems in using any loyalist Codex instead of the Chaos Space Marines Codex. Aside from slightly different units, ever since 2nd Edition the main distinction between loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines rules wise was that the loyalists had ATSKNF (or a similar rule in 2nd Edition) while the Chaos Marines did not. The introduction of teh 3rd Edition Codex even points out that this is one of the main differences.

Then there is other issues like WS/BS 3 assault squads. I am old school Chaos, so as far as I am concerned you don't have to go Raptor heavy if you are playing Night Lords. But using a list with weaker assault units for Night Lords? That would not exactly strike me as "closer to Night Lord fluff".