Night Lords using Space Wolves codex

[jmurph]

Certainly, as long as you follow WYSIWYG, it's legal as a "counts as" list.

 

Howevever, conceptually, I think even codex marines would be closer to Night Lords, espe. with Shrike, Khan, bike captain, etc. Blood Angels are zoomy fast fighty, which might also work (scouting, outflanking vehicles, etc.). Space Wolves have a more rough and tumble feel that would fit regularly CSM, Khorne, etc. better.

[PagingMrHerman]

Yes, they're legal and I think it's a good idea. I know several people who use Chaos Space Marine models for Space Wolf armies.

 

I play in a lot of tournaments in the Southeastern USA and not one organizer would give you grief. I don't know how it is outside of the USA. Those who lack imagination and creativity may not like it that you're not painting your little men Space Wolves Grey or calling a Grey Hunter model a Grey Hunter, but they can do their army however they want to do theirs and yours yours.

[Vlk]

I just don't get this... why? Is Codex: CSM so bad that you can't win with it? Because there are crowds of people who CAN and there are CSM builds that are still incredibly competitive.

 

Or perhaps you like Space Wolves' fluff? You can play Space Wolves then. I guess I'm just too conservative...

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

ATSKNF = replaces Icons of Chaos, which many puritan NL players don't use for fluff reasons, leaving their marines to run scared, something that really doesn't fit with being Night Lords..

ATSKNF never was fluffy for a Chaos Marine army, and lilely never will be. And that really is one of the major problems in using any loyalist Codex instead of the Chaos Space Marines Codex. Aside from slightly different units, ever since 2nd Edition the main distinction between loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines rules wise was that the loyalists had ATSKNF (or a similar rule in 2nd Edition) while the Chaos Marines did not. The introduction of teh 3rd Edition Codex even points out that this is one of the main differences.

 

 

while i understand why is a warrior who lives in the warp or a 10000 year old veteran supposedly more easily scared than these new whelps that the Imperium makes? I dont understand background wise why that is although i know its to highly differentiate the two armies. Night Lords in the 3.5 awesome sauce codex (if i remember correctly) were allowed to have 4 fast attacks at the expense of 1 heavy support slot. I guess this as well lead alot of people to thinking ba's were preferable as they can get alot more fast moving units.

 

however to support the terror crusade i can understand. you could use the scouts as flankers (uh duh :P ) infiltartors what have you (maybe even an attempt to bring back cultists) Wolf Claws might be a weapon of choice (i have no idea i do need to go read the night lord books)

 

 

maximum rule despite all the sour grapes from the earlier. Your army your fun you bought it you made it..

[Brother Nihm]

You guys do realize that C: SW rules-wise is closer to the older Night Lords fluff than the new one is, right?

I don't.

I know that you don't.

 

Counter-attack = replaces veteran skills

I wonder if there were many people giving "Counter-Attack" to their Chaos units with the 3.5 Codex.

You'd be surprised, the most common vet skills were undoubtedly Tank Hunter and FC but I did see builds with counter attack.

 

Night Vision = Acute Senses

Yay, that one actually was a IA/3.5 Night Lords rule.

Yes.

 

ATSKNF = replaces Icons of Chaos, which many puritan NL players don't use for fluff reasons, leaving their marines to run scared, something that really doesn't fit with being Night Lords..

ATSKNF never was fluffy for a Chaos Marine army, and lilely never will be. And that really is one of the major problems in using any loyalist Codex instead of the Chaos Space Marines Codex. Aside from slightly different units, ever since 2nd Edition the main distinction between loyalist Marines and Chaos Marines rules wise was that the loyalists had ATSKNF (or a similar rule in 2nd Edition) while the Chaos Marines did not. The introduction of teh 3rd Edition Codex even points out that this is one of the main differences.

Then there is other issues like WS/BS 3 assault squads. I am old school Chaos, so as far as I am concerned you don't have to go Raptor heavy if you are playing Night Lords. But using a list with weaker assault units for Night Lords? That would not exactly strike me as "closer to Night Lord fluff".

Weaker? Sky Claws, maybe, they still get +2 A on the charge though. But there is no unit in Codex Chaos Space Marines that is able to put out 40 str 4 power weapon attacks on the charge - for 280 points or less. Wolfguard is.

 

I just don't get this... why? Is Codex: CSM so bad that you can't win with it? Because there are crowds of people who CAN and there are CSM builds that are still incredibly competitive.

 

Or perhaps you like Space Wolves' fluff? You can play Space Wolves then. I guess I'm just too conservative...

I cannot speak for Flower, but there are a lot (and I mean a lot) of players who aren't happy with C: CSM for more reasons than you can shake a stick at. The main ones being the removal of Legion rules and the obliteration of established fluff. For them it has nothing to do with winning and everything to with fielding a force that isn't cookie cutter/cloned and actually captures the fluff. Our commanders do nothing for the army as a whole, except for Lash HQ's and you know how well liked they are. There's very little in the codex that enables you to form an army around the old fluff, today it's gone with the Legion (:P) and yay for Renegades/Spiky bits.

 

At the moment, due to codex-creep C: CSM is a second tier codex strength-wise, but as you say, it is far from a weak codex.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Grey Mage]

Hey, the OP will do what he wants. I personally feel that C:BA is a better fit.

 

JPs for troops.

Sorcerors.

Crazy Dreadnaughts and 'possessed' marines.

Furious Charge.

The ability to take elite slot 'aspiring champions' and 'aspiring sorcerers'.

Descent of Angels seems apropriate, as does VVs abilities, for a terror focused legion.

You can still take tactical squads, havocs, etc if you want a less flighty approach, but still keep these other parts, and the ability to have scoring Raptors.

No Daemons, or counts-as daemons... as I recall the NLs were never to fond of them, only occaisionally enslaving them.

[Wysten]

I just don't get this... why? Is Codex: CSM so bad that you can't win with it? Because there are crowds of people who CAN and there are CSM builds that are still incredibly competitive.

 

Or perhaps you like Space Wolves' fluff? You can play Space Wolves then. I guess I'm just too conservative...

Kirbys blog is something i've been reading lately, under 5th edition chaos, he points out everything that is good, but largely bad about Chaos. Basically coming down to them not being equiped for the 5th edition due to being expensive, with largely ineffective choices in compersion to the Loyalists, plus it pretty poorly repersents the verious Chaos Legions. At least with Space Marines you could quite easily build several, different armies, Chaos can't really do the same as well since they have to handicap themselves to do it.

[Stormbrow II]

There's very little in the codex that enables you to form an army around the old fluff, today it's gone with the Legion and yay for Renegades/Spiky bits.

Here's why I'm never bothered. The Chaos dex is terrible for variety so Chaos players are turning to other books to inject something new into the hobby for them: Raptor armies using the BA, Thousand Sons using SW, the list goes on.

 

The only time I have a problem with someone doing this is when their army is confusing. If they've done a half-assed job it should be easy enough for me to tell what stuff is just by looking at it.

 

At the end of the day its the other person's models and if they've spent the bones of €300 on a 1750 army and converting it then I'm not going to be slating them for how I perceive the hobby should be played. I'll tell them if their work is nice and ask what stuff represents.

 

Then I'll pick his army apart and enjoy doing it.

 

maximum rule despite all the sour grapes from the earlier

You sound like a German DJ.

 

The sentiment expressed is solid though. To the OP: Do whatever makes you enjoy your hobby.

 

We've a saying in Ireland about people that try to rain on your parade: F*ck the begrudgers.

[Legatus]

why is a warrior who lives in the warp or a 10000 year old veteran supposedly more easily scared than these new whelps that the Imperium makes? I dont understand background wise why that is although i know its to highly differentiate the two armies.

Chaos Marines are actually harder to scare, as they have a base LD of 9, and LD 10 when led by a Champion. So they will fail fewer morale tests than Space Marines, which is the point where a unit would go "oh crap, we're screwed!" The big difference between loyalists and traitor Marines is that even in such a desperate situation, where they are certain that they will not make it (which is a rational conclusion, not "being scared"), loyalists will stand fast because their mission or their brothers in arms may depend on it, while traitors don't give anything about their brothers in arms or the objective of their Lord. Their main priority is their own glory/loot/fun.

 

Chaos Marines are brutal warriors, enhanced by the powers of the Dark Gods, but they are also selfish. Loyalists follow a more strict code of arms, have better resources and have more dedication to their cause.

 

 

Brother Nihm: You probably know how much I love shooting back point for point in such debates, but I think I will refrain for now, as that would probably derail the Thread too much. Suffice it to say that I think Chaos Marines should be played with the rules for Chaos marines.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I agree with Grey Mage on this one. The BA codex seems more "chaosy" and will definitely work well with Night Lords.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

i think the bottom line is flowers its your money do whatever the heck you want with it. i dont mean that sarcastic or rude i mean that with all honesty and cheerful thoughts. and as much as this pains me to remember there once was a video of a young lad smashing a death korp of kreig army with a hammer. did we all wish he didnt? yes, did he have every right to do so? yes it was his purchase his models and his money.

 

if you want to spend 10 cents and buy the green army men and use them go ahead thats assuredly bad taste as the models are horrible to customize but hey paint your soldiers batman esque and give them the bat helmets and make the most bad ass little pyschopathic killers this side of the great pond and go nuts..

 

retracting my former support of ba in sw you can have bat crazy chaos champion lone wolves. the joker in wolf priest form, or... well i dont really know many magic users in the batman universe but anyway we have lukas who would also do well as a joker monolouge or twoface, but i ramble back to the point of my edit. lone wolves make crazy awesome chaos champions, the ones that stand apart not just sergeants, and honestly the wolf guard is the best form of sergeantry in the game instead of just fist or sword and a selection of pistols ranging from templates to meltas you can go apepoop crazy. and while i absolutely disgust blood claws in any form of competitive gaming the flying beserkers would make decent flying terrorists (as we all know firing the ak from the hip just gives my brother marines a better target to calmly and collectively aim and execute.) and by all means i know it sounds like im comparing the night lords to the taliban but thats not exactly it at all its just night lords excell at terror which is hard to actually invoke on the table tops.

 

scouts make great infiltrators and

[Fhyn]

As far as Thunderwolf Lord, could always do a conversion and make something like a centaur type figure, to represent the warp taint. Just an idea.

[Spacefrisian]

Have you considered using the Blood Angels dex instead for this one. Eg the Raptor thing.

[S. Bloodhowl]

Have you considered using the Blood Angels dex instead for this one. Eg the Raptor thing.

 

The original idea of Night Lords (as far as I remember) didn't atually have them as jump pack obsessed guys nut rather stealthy and terror inducing.

 

I would say that the SW codex would be good as things like wolf scouts, acute senses and furious charge (did the original night lord concept not also have them as khorne worshippers?) work well with the original idea of them

[TrentL]

Legally long as:

 

1) ThunderWolf models are riding some sort of Demonic Mount (A jump pack isn't going to cut it)

2) You can easilly see what's a "Grey Hunter" and whats a "Blood Claw" etc.

 

You are going to be accused of jumping on the SW "That was Easy" button, and get ready for loads and loads of harassment from people... (When I wanted to use Blood Angels as Raven Guard I took endless amounts of flack, and that actually made sense compared to Night Lords using SW)

 

If you have thick skin enjoy! If you get easily annoyed or bothered by people harping on you I'd think about it. (In the end I just made a blood angel army)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

you legally can.

 

tastefully, you cant.

 

WLK

 

If I see any OPs like this in the future, shall I tell them NO! and sign WLK? ;) :P :lol:

 

if it floats your boat.

 

this was my nice answer. i had a much longer one, which detailed the amount of codex jumping done by players to use the shiney rules for whawtever fluffy army they wanted to play, but i got lazy.

 

so i figured i wont have to deal with this, but tossed in my 2 cents as the OP posed a question.

 

WLK

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

thus adding nothing but negativity to the thread and generally frowny faces from everyone.

 

some minor points from looking at lexicanum.

 

night lords hate chaos, and mutations almost as much as loyalists.

use of raptors does seem prominent in their current fluff with lexicanum stating most raptors came from the night lord chapter.

also psykers seem slim to none in their army as they hate them.

[Legatus]

night lords hate chaos, and mutations almost as much as loyalists.

The Night Lords don't hate Chaos at all. They are just not fond of the thought of sucking up to it. If they can use daemons or allied cult units to achieve their goals they will have no problems with it.

 

 

also psykers seem slim to none in their army as they hate them.

Somehow I cannot recall that. And teh Lexicanum does not seem to suggest that either. In fact, as Night Lord Sorcerers display similar visions as their Primarch did, they may even be especially revered. Or maybe not, since Night Lords are not generally strong on reverence.

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Night_Lords

 

sorry got my sources messed up, and the new night lord book shows the dislike the night lords have towards chaos and mutations.

[Legatus]

That's why Talos' warband is led by a daemon prince, and why one of his squad mates is devoted to Khorne. :) Listen, you have the right idea, you are just taking it too far. The Night Lords do not hate Chaos in the same way loyalists do. Loyalists despise everything Chaos and want it purged in every form. Night Lords don't want to be entangled with Chaos too much, and don't want to be physically messed up by it's corrupting powers, but if they can use Chaos for their own means, they are more than willing to. Their Index Astartes describes how they use all the different Cult units equally often (as allies, not from their own Legion). But while they use their talents, they also think dismissive of them for sucking up to a deity. But in wanting more power for himself even a Night Lords can succumb to one or more of the Dark Gods. Like the aforementioned daemon prince and Khorne devotee. Or like Krieg Acerbus from the previous novel.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

To the Night Lords Chaos is just another blade to be used in the Long War; a blade with a sharpened hilt, but a blade none the less.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Think of the relationships of the various Legions like this. Black Legion are man-harlots, getting it whenever they can wherever they can. The Cult Legions are married to the powers. The Word Bearers are in a polygamous relationship.

 

Chaos is the Night Lords' booty call. They get it when they want it but, eh... not into the whole relationship thing. Too much commitment. Too much work. Too much chance of having your soul sucked out... oh did I say that? <_< Bad I_D, that's a very bad I_D.

 

Probably the wrong example to use on a wargaming forum. But I think it's apt.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Thats rather apt actually..

[Freman Bloodglaive]

With all their Chaplains the Blood Angel list would be quite good for Word Bearers... and they're only a couple of steps from Chaos anyway.

[Grimtooth]

I see no problem with doing any type of count-as. Opinions will vary on just how well you could pull it off.

 

I personally thought of a Word Bearers army using the SW codex would be great.

 

Wolf Lord with saga would be a Dark Apostle.

 

Wolf Priests would be Apostles

 

Wolf Guard would be Apostle Initiates in squads.

 

 

Lone Wolves would be chaos gifted Word Bearers

 

Grey Hunters would be Word Bearer CSM.

 

MoW in squads would be blessed Word Bearers.

 

Blood Claws would be fanatical followers.

 

Fenrisian Wolves would be demons.