Another "Talk Me Into BA" Post

[Khavos]

Howdy, BA folks.

 

I don't like vanilla SM. I like an assault-focused playstyle, and the vanilla codex doesn't deliver it. I picked up both the BA and SW codices, and the first thing that I noticed about BA is how utterly terrible their vanilla captains are. That's a fairly big deal for me, as I don't like doing a Counts-As, and some fluff monkey part of my brain just can't write a list without including a Captain in it.

 

Space Wolves have flat-out incredible vanilla Captains, real Herohammer stuff. I'd argue the only thing that even comes close in the BA codex, on a one-on-one basis, is Mephiston himself. They have CC-capable Tacticals, and Thunderwolf Cavalry are pretty incredible. I got to work writing Space Wolf lists.

 

Then a funny thing happened. I realized that any list I came up with was basically a vanilla codex list; a shooty army with one hammer assault unit. All I'd really done was replaced fire support tanks with Long Fangs, TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider with Thunderwolf Cavalry, and vanilla Tacticals with Grey Hunters who knew how to turn a chainsword on. They're not assault lists; they're shooty lists. Plus, let's face it, Space Marines riding giant wolves into battle is ridiculous.

 

Another nail in the coffin is that you can't create DIY successor chapters. Sure, you can pull some Lost Company shenanigans, but they're still just Space Wolves, albeit ones who apparently forgot to pack a map. That's not all bad; Vikings are awesome.

 

Blood Angels came back into the picture. Glorious jump assault armies paired with fluff that I intensely dislike, though that's easy enough to get rid of with a successor chapter. But craptastic Captains. No Artificer Armor? No Relic Blades? They can be Shrike without Fleet or Infiltrate, or a flying TH/SS Terminator without the Terminator armor? Who in their right mind sacrifices I5 striking?

 

So, BA community, what I need is reassurance that a BA list with a heavy preponderance of Assault Marines and a gimped vanilla Captain can actually work. Maybe, just maybe, I'll be able to turn my back on a S6 6-attack armor-ignoring Eternal Warrior who can charge 18+D6 inches.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I have 3 words for you on the issue of not having good enough Captains in the BA dex:

Librarians and Reclusiarchs.

 

BA have the best force multiplier Psychic powers out there and a Librarian in CC is always a monster, even when his name isn't Mephiston.

A Reclusiarch is a beast in itself, he does not even need any upgrades to become more beastly. Add him to a squad and you get all kinds of lovely rerolls, add him to a DC and you turn a 20 points per model, FNC+FP squad of insane beasties with 2 base attacks into one that rerolls both To hit and to Wound on the charge. I have seen insane things happen with small groups of Power Weapon DC added by a Chaplain or Reclusiarch.. including only 2 of them left together with the Reclusiarch taking down full tactical squads of enemies before they can even strike.

They can do the same to your Space Wolf's poor Grey Hunters.

 

Then there are our Sanguinary Priests.. giving a full squad of jumping Marines FC + FNP is just nasty in itself.. but this is no squad multiplier, this is a Bubble! Just 1 model in your whole 10 man RAS within the bubble of that Sang Priest after the charge into assault and BAM, you turned your troop choice into deadly units equal to most enemy's Elite choices. And you can get 3 of these priests within 1 FOC Elite choice.

 

Finally: Dreadnoughts.. we got the most, we got the toughest, we got the deadliest. The 13 front armor Furioso is a beast that only specialized enemies can take down in CC, the 12 front armor Fleet DC Dread is a dangerous and surprisingly fast moving Dreadnought.. the look on your enemy's face when they realise that Dreadnought just moved 18 inches to get into the face of their Fast moving unit is priceless.

 

So.. the choice really boils down to: Do you want an army thats good in CC.. or do you want an army that completely ruins your enemy when they get the charge. BA's aren't especially good when they get charged like SW are, but on the Charge there is not much that can stop any assault unit the BA have.. and we have lots of them.

 

Hope that helped you a bit ;-)

 

PS.

If you dislike many of the fluff of the BA, try Flesh Tearers.. they are the real loyalist Berserkers with a noble heart ;-) A chapter that is not, "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne", but is all about: "We will not go down into history as a chapter that fell to a flaw in their geneseed.. we will go down fighting the enemies of the Imperium. Being the first to come and the last to leave at every conflict. We may not be able to defeat the Black Rage.. but we will point it towards the enemies of the Imperium untill none of us are left standing!"

If you can describe the BA as Athenian Greeks, than the Flesh Tearers are their Spartan counterparts.

[Jakobus]

Most people go with a Reclusiarch or a Libby and skip the Captain for tge exact reasons you stated.

 

With the Libby that has the Epi upgrade can hit at Str10 ignoring armor and refilling missed hits, usually on I5

 

But SW is about the Characters, BA is about the army fast and hard that can quickly reposition

[KhorneHunter57x]

You might actually want to take a look at the Black Templars, the 'other' Assaulty Marine army. Although we don't have the latest 5th edition toys, a Templar force is still quite competitive, and we have Emperor's Champions as a mandatory HQ (2+ armor, S6 power weapon, can give the whole army Preferred Enemy). Crusader squads can take scouts in the squad as extra bodies and can be equipped with BP/CCW. Also, our fluff is pretty cool.

 

I hope you find the army that fits you, be it Angels, Wolves, or Templars.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

So you would take a Wolflord but not a Recluisarch or Librarian? It always amazes me how people self impose restrictions then cry about it.

 

0b :lol:

[Khavos]

I have 3 words for you on the issue of not having good enough Captains in the BA dex:

Librarians and Reclusiarchs.

 

Neither of which are Captains. :lol:

 

BA have the best force multiplier Psychic powers out there and a Librarian in CC is always a monster, even when his name isn't Mephiston.

A Reclusiarch is a beast in itself, he does not even need any upgrades to become more beastly. Add him to a squad and you get all kinds of lovely rerolls, add him to a DC and you turn a 20 points per model, FNC+FP squad of insane beasties with 2 base attacks into one that rerolls both To hit and to Wound on the charge. I have seen insane things happen with small groups of Power Weapon DC added by a Chaplain or Reclusiarch.. including only 2 of them left together with the Reclusiarch taking down full tactical squads of enemies before they can even strike.

They can do the same to your Space Wolf's poor Grey Hunters.

 

Oh, I'm aware. Unfortunately, a Captain's got to be an HQ choice for me. Doesn't have to be the only one, but does have to be one. I'm not a WAAC type, I'm afraid, but more of a fluff monkey.

 

And unfortunately, BA Captains just flat-out suck. I thought they sucked before I even read the SW codex, and once I saw how beastly you can make a Wolf Lord...man, I wish I'd never read that stuff.

 

PS.

If you dislike many of the fluff of the BA, try Flesh Tearers.. they are the real loyalist Berserkers with a noble heart ;-) A chapter that is not, "Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne", but is all about: "We will not go down into history as a chapter that fell to a flaw in their geneseed.. we will go down fighting the enemies of the Imperium. Being the first to come and the last to leave at every conflict. We may not be able to defeat the Black Rage.. but we will point it towards the enemies of the Imperium untill none of us are left standing!"

If you can describe the BA as Athenian Greeks, than the Flesh Tearers are their Spartan counterparts.

 

Eh, I'd be doing a DIY either way if I went with the Blood Angels codex, so their particular fluff doesn't matter all that much. I do wish Seth was a better SC, though, I'd almost consider using him as a Counts-As just because his name's not Dante or Mephiston.

[Khavos]

So you would take a Wolflord but not a Recluisarch or Librarian? It always amazes me how people self impose restrictions then cry about it.

 

0b :lol:

 

Huh? I'd take a Wolf Lord AND a Rune Priest, in a SW list. If you haven't seen the customization options for a Wolf Lord, I recommend not looking into them. They'll make you cry. Want to give one +1S, +1A, and +1T with a massive charge range? AND Eternal Warrior? Completely possible.

[Zealadin]

As others have stated BA aren't really 'better' than SW in terms of CC, they benefit hugely from gaining the charge, but the most common 'competitive' lists now are just razorback spam which is arguably a shooty army anyway. CC can be insane, but its an army that requires alot of finese. Put it this way, BA are the Eldar of the Space Marines - more specialised, need to use your force multipliers well, and very tactical.

SW's are alot more straightforward compared to this in many respects.

 

A Captain isn't a bad choice, its a terrible choice sadly... I don't know what they where thinking but nothing in the Captain's profile, armoury choices, or special rules are in any way deserving his points cost.... that being said when you read the Tac Marine fluff in the latest codex you'll understand why.

The Reclusiarch on the other hand is basically in my simplified perspective the true 'Captain' figure of the BA codex. Librarian's are a bit of a more all rounder, and more easily specialised, but at the same time very cool.

 

The issue you will probably have is that even the most CC orientated armies will need to be reasonably balanced, otherwise they aren't competitive, which is why even CC lists contain elements that aren't considered 'CC-centric'.

JP heavy armies often either contain Dev squads, sometimes accompanied by a SP for extra survivability, or mech options.

There are also bike options like the Blood Rodeo.

 

If you find your list generation is always moving back towards shooty lists then either SW or BA can fall into that kind of problem. Either list will support a CC army, its just a matter of figuring out exactly what you want, and how you will acheive it.

Best thing to do is find some lists you like in the Army List area, and see what you can build from there.

 

You honestly won't find an army as satisfying if you have already decided too much of what you want, sometimes it won't work or isn't worth it, sometimes it doesn't suit the army, and sometimes all the things you want dont fit in the same kind of list. If you want a good list as opposed to a fluffy or fun list it becomes problematic.

[JamesI]

If you want a Jump Pack captain with a relic blade and Artificer armor, look at Astorath the Grim. Sure he's a chaplain, but he has captain stats, and makes a great "Counts As" Chapter Master.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree with you James and the poster just before your reply. Chaplains/Recluisarchs have always been the real leaders of the army. We did use to have the High Priest who was really nice but he has basically been rolled into the Chaplain.

 

0b :lol:

[Khavos]

You might actually want to take a look at the Black Templars, the 'other' Assaulty Marine army.

 

I'd thought about it, but it's a hard codex to justify using for anyone but BTs. No DIYs, no successors, etc.

 

As others have stated BA aren't really 'better' than SW in terms of CC, they benefit hugely from gaining the charge, but the most common 'competitive' lists now are just razorback spam which is arguably a shooty army anyway. CC can be insane, but its an army that requires alot of finese. Put it this way, BA are the Eldar of the Space Marines - more specialised, need to use your force multipliers well, and very tactical.

SW's are alot more straightforward compared to this in many respects.

 

Competitiveness is a factor, but it's not anywhere close to the top of my list of must-haves. If it were, there's no way a BA Captain would even be considered. :lol:

 

A Captain isn't a bad choice, its a terrible choice sadly... I don't know what they where thinking but nothing in the Captain's profile, armoury choices, or special rules are in any way deserving his points cost.... that being said when you read the Tac Marine fluff in the latest codex you'll understand why.

The Reclusiarch on the other hand is basically in my simplified perspective the true 'Captain' figure of the BA codex. Librarian's are a bit of a more all rounder, and more easily specialised, but at the same time very cool.

 

Yeah. I honestly don't know what it is, to tell you the truth. I've never cared for Chaplains in any of their forms, despite their extreme usefulness, and Librarians are on the same page, more or less. I'll take them, but not as the 'guy in charge' of my little mini-army. To put it into perspective, I spent quite a long time trying to come up for a replacement unit for TH/SS Terminators in my vanilla SM lists. They're a ridiculously good, ridiculously cost effective unit. Just don't like 'em. I think it's the weird dog-like helmets. Either way, it should illustrate that WAAC competitiveness isn't the final determining factor on a lot of things for me. That said, I also don't want a list that falls over and craps itself as soon as it hits the table, and I know that's only made more difficult with self-imposed 'rules.'

 

You honestly won't find an army as satisfying if you have already decided too much of what you want, sometimes it won't work or isn't worth it, sometimes it doesn't suit the army, and sometimes all the things you want dont fit in the same kind of list. If you want a good list as opposed to a fluffy or fun list it becomes problematic.

 

See, I dunno; I've seen some all-JP lists that appear like they'd be competitive. More of a high wire act than Razorback spam, but not destined to lose. I drew up some pretty decent SW lists, but knew how they'd play, and knew it didn't fit how I'd like to play.

 

I appreciate everyone's responses, by the way.

[Zealadin]

Have you looked at a SG themed list? Dante is more of a captain type figure than anything else, and adds alot to your forces. You do probably want to use a few squads of SG if you go this route, but its quite fun and fluffy and is similar to the Terminators but less tough and arguably harder hitters if accompanied by a SP.

 

One huge benefit of all the BA HQ's are the honour guard, so worst case scenario you can use your Captain to fill out wounds for the HQ, which are normally quite the priority.

 

Alternatively you can basically get a Captain and a Lib or Reclusiarch for the same cost as a SC, which in larger points isn't such an issue. This also allows you to add two HG units which can be quite nasty as firebases esp for anti tank, or as CC monsters.

 

Personally I think the BA Captain should be about 70 points standard, when you consider the limited customisability, but thats just me :lol:

[Deschenus Maximus]

If you really must have a Captain, how about Capt Tycho?

[Crynn]

It's pretty simple, take Dante as he is not bad for points, or if you don't like special characters and can't possibly play without a captain then don't play BA's as Matt Wards retartedness know no bounds. We have great chaplains and Librarians but I have not once ever considered taking a captain. sanguinor is a combat beast and will raip any spacewolf HQ but again is a SC and not a captain and is hugely expensive, you have no option. Play wolves, and be another one of those wolves players who just cant understand how my BA's keep smashing them time and time again with a little thought into our vastly superior movement phase and fnp and 5+ shield bubbles. If you play wolves you also get their amazing fluf which consits entirely of "wolf wolf wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf.... Wolf" hugely in depth there. Thunderwolves, wolfguard, lonewolves, wolflords, wolf priests, fenrisian wolves, wolf claws the boredom is just never ending, plus you have do deal with a whole army full of wrangers. I can barely contain my vomit when I pass one on the street let alone having to look at an army of them. haha jk. But seriously mate, BA's just aren't for you.

[Khavos]

It's pretty simple, take Dante as he is not bad for points, or if you don't like special characters and can't possibly play without a captain then don't play BA's as Matt Wards retartedness know no bounds.

 

Agreed there.

 

We have great chaplains and Librarians but I have not once ever considered taking a captain.

 

Everyone has great Chaplains and Librarians. Even vanilla codex ones are decent.

 

sanguinor is a combat beast and will raip any spacewolf HQ but again is a SC and not a captain and is hugely expensive, you have no option.

 

I'm not familiar with his stats and I don't have the codex at hand, but I doubt it.

 

If you play wolves you also get their amazing fluf which consits entirely of "wolf wolf wolf wolf, wolf wolf wolf.... Wolf" hugely in depth there. Thunderwolves, wolfguard, lonewolves, wolflords, wolf priests, fenrisian wolves, wolf claws the boredom is just never ending, plus you have do deal with a whole army full of wrangers.

 

Which differs from throwing "sanguine" or "blood" into every other sentence...how, precisely? Also, I have no idea what a "wranger" is.

 

I can barely contain my vomit when I pass one on the street

 

Space Wolves walk down your street?

 

But seriously mate, BA's just aren't for you.

 

They might not be. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I agree that probably BA are not for you. I think Templars would be a better fit.

 

0b :)

[Mezkh]

If you're not a WAAC guy, perhaps just try a fluffy Captain. His WS6 comes cheap which doesn't hurt (BA armies are EXPENSIVE pointswise) and he isn't exactly useless. More power to him with FNP or Furious charge.

 

Play to the strengths he does have over the other characters. He can take a mobility option (JP, TDA, Bike), he is an IC with WS6, he can take lightning claws, he can do this and not cost 220+ points. You can basically get a free priest compared to a named JP character - there is your armywide buff - and he'll still be more than enough in CC for plenty of units to handle.

[TrentL]

Everyone has great Chaplains and Librarians. Even vanilla codex ones are decent.

The Vanilla "HQ" Chaplains... are our Elite Chaplains...

Our Reclusiarchs are Vanilla Captains (In terms of stats and offensive power), attacks, initiative etc

So no not everyone has Great Chaplains.

 

I'm not sure about Libby's our Libby's are beasts in CC, Rune Priests are Beasts in Shooting... so up to you on that one. But we can get a Libby striking at S:10, re-rolling to hit... not every chapter can field that.

 

sanguinor is a combat beast and will raip any spacewolf HQ but again is a SC and not a captain and is hugely expensive, you have no option.

 

I'm not familiar with his stats and I don't have the codex at hand, but I doubt it.

 

Well your wrong. Sanguinor has higher WS, Comparable Strength (Unless wolflord has 2 upgrades affecting his str) the same defenses, the ability to choose an enemy HQ and do nasty things to him, as well as he has multiple force multipliers built in to him.

 

Only downside is the Sanguinor is not an IC so he can't "Join" units but a one on one fight I think he'd take the wolf lord.

 

(But I totally agree with you I like the space wolves ability to hero hammer, and where I play your not allowed to use Named characters in ANY tournaments... which has pretty much made me shelf my Blood Angels for Tournies... as well I like using Lemartes and Dante :lol:)

 

Which differs from throwing "sanguine" or "blood" into every other sentence...how, precisely? Also, I have no idea what a "wranger" is.

 

Your choosing between Werewolves and Vampires, you'll have to live with the choice you make on fluff blood or howling at the moon.

 

 

But seriously mate, BA's just aren't for you.

 

They might not be. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

Honestly if you need this much convincing I think you've made up your mind.

[Lorenzen]

blood angel captains dont suck as much as people make out, but if you're comparing them to a 200+ point wolf lord then theyre going to seem worse.

 

captain with jump pack, storm shield and lightning claw.. stick him in a sanguinary bubble and youve got a 3+3++ feel no pain, str5 init 6 rerolling to wound power weapon that doesnt cost in exess of 200 points.. if thats not good enough take dante and gimp your opponents hq without doing anything.. a wolf lord doesnt seem so funky when he starts the game with 2 wounds.

[JamesI]

blood angel captains dont suck as much as people make out, but if you're comparing them to a 200+ point wolf lord then theyre going to seem worse.

 

captain with jump pack, storm shield and lightning claw.. stick him in a sanguinary bubble and youve got a 3+3++ feel no pain, str5 init 6 rerolling to wound power weapon that doesnt cost in exess of 200 points.. if thats not good enough take dante and gimp your opponents hq without doing anything.. a wolf lord doesnt seem so funky when he starts the game with 2 wounds.

The main problem with the BA captain is that for basically the same cost (after adding a power weapon or something better than a chainsword) is basically the same as a reclusiarch without the rerolls on the charge.

 

The BA captain advantages over the reclusiarch are:

 

1. WS6

2. Access Storm Shields

3. Access to Thunder Hammers

4. Access to Lightning Claws.

 

For the same cost as a jump pack, lightning claw captain I'd rather have a jumpy reclusiarch improving a squad.

[TrentL]

Yeah I tend to use Reclusiarch's now exclusively to run my BA, with a Libby running back-up, mainly because of the Invun save that a Libby can't get.

 

I have to admit though after a local tourny where my Libby got insta gibbed by power weapons, and power fists (Not by choice just bad placement).

 

I can't deny the thoughts of a wolf lord separating from his Wolf Guard Armed with a Frost Weapon, Storm Shield, Runic armor, Saga of the Bear walking up to the Demon Prince with a "Lets get it on" feel... I love it.

 

I love it so much I sold my D&D mini's on Ebay for 600$ so I could buy a Space Wolf Force. I'm not leaving my BA I love the finesse and skill it takes, but its so much easier to get into a chapter if you can make kick butt cool HQ's that aren't "Count as Dante"

[Lorenzen]

agreed id rather take a reclusiarch, but i was generally adressing the "captains suck!" comments.. which is untrue, theyre just not our best hq choice.. id still rather have a blood angel captain than a dark angel one for instance.. and id rather have a dark angel captain than a da librarian etc etc

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I think our Captains were nerfed as part of a balancing act..

 

Imagine the following 'hammer' unit: (all jump packed)

Captain with LC + SS (or Blade Enc. not sure if that can be added with SS, but you can use a SS when the hand is already used for a weapon right?)

Honour Guard (Blood Champion, Sang Novitiate, and 2 HG units with Power Weapons, 1 with PF and Chapter Banner)

Chaplain (Elite version, not Reclusiarch)

 

Then you have a jumpy, heavy hitting Hammer unit.. all with +1A from the chapter banner, FC+FNP from the novitiate, 3 units with an inv save, and a lot of rerolls because of the Chaplain and LC/Blade Enc.

 

It hits hard.. and the Captain is not a buffer but a dangerous unit to get buffed. Really wouldn't mind throwing that at an enemy HQ unit of equal points.

[Joasht]

The OP sounds almost convinced *NOT* to play Blood Angels...

 

Well here is the thing. Space Marine armies, in general, have a tendency to be roughly the same in composition if you look at it from a broad angle of just grouping everything into melee hammers and shooty bits (unless you discount certain weird builds). All-out-assault Marine armies without some form of guns don't work well (I've tried that exhaustively in the past with other codices prior to the latest BA codex, even the old 3rd ed BA codex), and gunline Marines are not *really* as shooty as true gunline armies like IG. The problem here is that Space Marines were designed to be pretty much the "middle line" of all races; tough but not THE toughest (also takes into account body count), assaulty but not THE most assaulty, shooty but not THE most shooty.

 

Given that the statlines and choices are mostly identical between all Marine codices, chances are things that work in one would work well in the other as well; although certain quirks do cause some units to stand out (e.g. Vulkan in Codex SM makes TH/SS Terminators especially awesome, Grey Hunters are more killy than everyone else's Troops, etc) at the end of the day the Space Marine player often relies very much on (often) one or two units to make or break their melee, while everything else is there to build up to that moment or mop up after the melee guys are done.

 

Things like Assault Marines are what I have always called pseudo-assault units. They give the illusion of being really assaulty, when fact is they are just mildly above-average. Sure, one squad would lay waste a squad of Firewarriors or Guardsmen, but I play against Eldar/Tyranids more than most other races, and I know that a squad of Assault Marines will not stand up against their points-equivalent of anything thats designed-for-melee from those two armies; and in some cases those units are their Troop choices. And as you said, Grey Hunters, while being admittedly pretty assaulty, are actually somewhat "shooty units that happen to fight well" - what makes them awesome is that they do both pretty well.

 

Well long story short, I might actually suggest you to try something thats not even Space Marine.

[Khavos]

The OP sounds almost convinced *NOT* to play Blood Angels...

 

For what it's worth, I'm just as down on Space Wolves, simply for different reasons.