Grey Hunters cost versus that of the Codex Tactical Marine

[Skirax]

Cost of one Grey Hunter = 15 points

Cost of one Tactical Marine = 18 points if in the starting five, 16 if an additional Marine

 

Base Cost of one base Grey Hunter Pack = 75 points

Base Cost of one base Tactical Squad = 90 points

 

Base Cost of one Full Grey Hunter Pack = 150 points

Base Cost of one Full Tactical Squad = 170 points

 

Grey Hunters cost, per Hunter, 1 less points cost of an additional Tactical Marine, which will be used for reference.

 

In that one point, the Grey Hunter;

 

Gains:

Counter Attack

Acute Senses

Close Combat Weapon

Extra Assault/Special Weapon

 

Loses:

Combat Tactics

Combat Squad

Squad Sergeant/Leader

Heavy Weapon

 

Reasons:

Combat Tactics: This concept is not in the mind of the average Space Wolf - they fight until the bitter end, and will not retreat willingly from Combat.

Combat Squads: A Pack sticks togethor - they become attuned to each others actions, strengths, weaknesses, attitudes etc. They will never willingly divide themselves.

Squad Sergeant: Pack Leaders are not chosen out of a Pack, as each person is seen as equal, and one being elevated above the others will breed contempt. Should a Pack Leader be needed, a Wolf Guard is chosen.

Counter Attack/Acute Senses: These have always been Space Wolf traits

Close Combat Weapon: Space Wolves are more adept at combat than the average Space Marine, as they have been fighting since the day they could hold a weapon.

Extra Special Weapon: Manoeuvrability is key in a Space Wolf Pack - they wish to get to grips with the enemy, and do not wished to be bogged down by a Heavy Weapon, and they have not yet earnt the right to bear such a potent weapon.

 

In a single Points Cost, Space Wolves become a potent weapon on the field, and that Point is a reduction in cost!

 

I feel that they are worthy of equal points cost in the game, but the only reason I can think of to reduce points cost is that there are meant to be more Space Wolves in the Chapter then in other Chapters.

 

What is your feeling on this?

[CainTheHunter]

But I feel these discrepancies in the costs of various units are somewhat remedied by other discrepancies in their respective transport costs/transport carrying capacities.

[Anpu42]

Personly I think they Ballance out over all.

 

The Lack of Heavy Weapons is a real anoiance. It makes you rellie on your Long Fangs for Long Range Weapons.

[Wispy]

The cost is also offset by more expensive HQ and wargear costs elsewhere in the codex.

 

Comparing two units from two different codexes side by side is pointless.

 

 

I would argue the lack of heavy weapons and combat tactics is why we need to be cheaper. We have to buy more hunters if we want to have our objectives covered, where tactical marines can adjust on the fly.

 

The whole no sarge thing is a lot more important then you think - we have to use an elites slot to get one of those, and forces us into the choice of sarge or special weapon or not being able to rhino up. If not, we're down a point of leadership.

 

I dunno, people should read both codexes before they complain.

[Legatus]

In 3rd Edition Grey Hunters "only" had 'True Grit', meaning they owuld only have 2 attacks on the charge or counter attack. And back then the Codex Author thought that a price of 18 points (normal Marine: 15 points) would be suitable for that additional combat power. Now Grey Hunters have 3 attacks on the charge or counter attack, and they cost 15 points. To be fair, it is not the same comparson anymore, as Codex Marines have also gotten a few extra rules. But I still don't think that the additional attacks are equal to "Combat Tactics". I think Space Wolves are getting a very sweet deal here.

 

I assume that background wise there will probably be some reason for why Tactical Marines are not equipped with big close combat weapons and only a combat blade (which doesn't count). Perhaps they are carrying a few extra Boltgun Clips where Grey Hunters put their close combat weapon?

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

no grievenaces intended but i simply must argue some of these points or else their is no use for a thread aside from alot of self promoted back patting.

 

Reasons:

Combat Tactics: This concept is not in the mind of the average Space Wolf - they fight until the bitter end, and will not retreat willingly from Combat.

 

no qualms here although feign retreat seems to be a strategy unheard of all but the orks sadly

 

Combat Squads: A Pack sticks togethor - they become attuned to each others actions, strengths, weaknesses, attitudes etc. They will never willingly divide themselves.

 

actually many wolf packs have been attributed to using this strategy of splitting up with the smaller weaker wolves attract and present a clear danger to their prey while the stronger wolves circle around and move in for the kill or to create a disturbance which removes the weak from the herd.

 

Squad Sergeant: Pack Leaders are not chosen out of a Pack, as each person is seen as equal, and one being elevated above the others will breed contempt. Should a Pack Leader be needed, a Wolf Guard is chosen.

 

actually; alpha wolves? alpha males? in every group someone becomes the alpha male and the same is true even in space wolves as evident in wolf's honour when the blood claws establish a pecking order in their own pack.

 

 

aside from the above i feel that the lack of long range weaponry really hurts the wolves despite their superiority in close combat but then again every army gets stronger the closer your troops get to their guns. orks, sisters, guard, tau, almost everyone but demons i would range get stronger the closer you get; but there i go rambling again.

 

as has been argued time and time again grey hunters are cheaper because transportation either you get the sgt or you 2 special weapons maximizing your range at 24 inches while tacticals can start pegging away from 48 inches away.

 

then again im also the cheeky bastard running more heavy weapons than i am bolter shots ;).

 

but you must as always check in with the entire codex before running two squads who fill somewhat the same role in their respective army.

 

besides we can all argue that we are better than those poor poor souls in the dark angels or angles ill never get the correct spelling nor do i care enough to figure it out so dont ruin that mystery for me.

[Karack Blackstone]

Tacticals likely load out with more bolter clips as theorized, but we don't know for sure.

 

Grey Hunters are incredibly good at doing any variation of what they're good at, though best at rapid-fire bolters, then counter charge. This lends me to believe with the above statement that Grey Hunters are either stronger, and carry more, or they are loaded down with other wargear up to the limit of their power armor as needed. Unless the entire unit is mounted in a Rhino/Razorback/Land Raider variant, which then makes the discussion moot.

 

After all the above, let's focus on what we do know, and assume both ten member squads are roughly equivalent in terms of loadouts and what not.

 

Ten Tactical Marines - Ultramarines, let's say.

- Option for a Heavy Weapon

- One Special Weapon

- Squad Sergeant mandatory

- Power Fist/Weapon option on Squad Sarge

- Plasma Pistol on Squad Sarge

- Assuming 16 points per model inside and outside the squad, the Sarge is a whopping 26 pts.

- Ld 9

- Combat Squads

- Combat Tactics

- Bolter, Bolt Pistol (No second CCW bonus)

 

Ten Grey Hunters - Space Wolves

- Option for one Special Weapon

- One choice of Power Fist/Weapon

- No default Sarge member, must be purchased separately

- If ten, gets second Special Weapon option for free

- zero to two plasma pistols possible (I think, don't have book)

- Wolf Totem/Standard

- Mark of the Wulfen

- 15 points each, Wolf Guard to lead them is 18 pts to lead them (also invalidates a unit of ten GH's getting a Rhino due to numbers)

- Ld 8

- Acute Senses

- Counter-Attack

- Bolter, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword (Gains +1 Attack in CC for two CCW's)

 

All in all, we have more variability but the Tacticals come out ahead in the tactical department. Likely thus their name.

 

Assuming the same, we would get the following:

 

Tactical Marines:

Sarge, nine Space Marines (Full squad, one Tactical Choice)

170 points without any upgrades past filling out the unit.

 

Grey Hunters plus one Wolf Guard Pack Leader:

Nine GH's, one WG (One Elite choice of at least three WG [split or whole, two left], one Tactical choice)

153 points without any upgrades to either the GH or the WG.

 

It's points pinching at this point but to boil my long winded post down, there's not point to forgo WG leading a pack of GH's unless you absolutely must.

 

This also means I have a reason to rethink my standard 2K pt. list.

 

Edit: Shifted points listed for WG to reflect base cost. If this post is a problem feel free to delete or let me know and I'll remove it. Attempting to inform, not discuss individual points values, thinking along the lines of what/how GW was building the units and what for.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Grey Hunters do get a points break, however remember that at 10 men the Tactical squad also has at least a flamer and heavy bolter/missile launcher/multi-melta as well as their bolters. In the previous version that would be between 11 and 26 points IIRC so there's not that much an imbalance.

We pay the same for power fists in the squad, and with two attacks the Tactical squad is twice as good with that particular weapon.

I think the fly in the ointment with Space Wolves is counter-attack. It is a very strong ability and we don't really pay for it. When all it meant was that we piled into combat when others couldn't there was nothing in it, it's the bonus attacks now that render it worth a point or so.

[narf]

To me the fact we get acute senses and counter attack is the same as marines getting combat tactics.

 

Bear in mind that vanilla marines get this, any SC's used to a specific chapter will change the combat tactics.

 

So you are comparing wolves (Acute sense/counter attack) to:

 

Stubborn, sternguard as scoring, +1 attack within 12"

Stubborn, bolter drill, bolster defences.

Twin linking melta flamers +?

Fleet +?

Outflanking +?

extra honour guard and god of war

 

Plus any others that i missed, you cannot compare Wolves to vanilla marines as they are not vanilla, but a a specialised force, hence it is fairer to compare them to SM forces using SC's.

 

Also the tactical squad is far more tactical, it can deploy as a 10 man unit or 2 five man units, this already gives the army an advantage in objective missions, and can be either an advantage in killpoints or a disadvantage, they will be able to have between 6 and 12 scoring units, and more with the right character selection. They can take a variety of weaponry, some for no extra cost, and increase their range with heavy weapons, added to the combat squads rule this can give you 2 sets of shots, that dont waste as many shots on units/vehicles they cant hurt. They do not stand up well in combat, but they should be used as supporting units to your main combat units, such as assault marines.

 

GH's have more versatility in close range and combat but lack punch against vehicles, and waste alot of shots if you want to use your melta against a vehicle the other 8-9 members of the unit sit there checking for flea's. Also SW can have a maximum of 6 scoring units, which does limit them in objective missions, whilst also meaning that whilst you will have a higher concentration of fire, you cannot pick as many targets as the equivelant tactical force using combat squads. They do however excel in combat, but as these are your main troop choices you may not want them also being your main assault units.

 

but thats just my thoughts

[Legatus]

Bear in mind that vanilla marines get this, any SC's used to a specific chapter will change the combat tactics.

 

So you are comparing wolves (Acute sense/counter attack) to:

 

Stubborn, sternguard as scoring, +1 attack within 12"

Stubborn, bolter drill, bolster defences.

Twin linking melta flamers +?

Fleet +?

Outflanking +?

extra honour guard and god of war

 

Plus any others that i missed, you cannot compare Wolves to vanilla marines as they are not vanilla, but a a specialised force, hence it is fairer to compare them to SM forces using SC's.

Then you would have to add a Space Wolves Special Character top the mix as well, like Grimnar or Njal, with his Storm effects. For example, Kantor's "+1 Attack within 12" is a feat of this Character model, and can hardly be called an army effect. Same as "Bolster Defences" and "Bolter Drill" from Lysander. Every Special Character will bring such a special feat or two.

[Wysten]

GH's have more versatility in close range and combat but lack punch against vehicles, and waste alot of shots if you want to use your melta against a vehicle the other 8-9 members of the unit sit there checking for flea's. Also SW can have a maximum of 6 scoring units, which does limit them in objective missions, whilst also meaning that whilst you will have a higher concentration of fire, you cannot pick as many targets as the equivelant tactical force using combat squads. They do however excel in combat, but as these are your main troop choices you may not want them also being your main assault units.

 

Not really, meltas are the best anti tank period, it's part of why Grey Hunters are used. There are better dedicated assualt units, but Grey Hunters can do most things pretty well, hence they can be used for any role when the time calls for it reasonably well, including tank busting. The Missle Launchers crack light armour and stun/shake heavy, while meltas deal with the really tough stuff if theres nothing to be shooting at. Or the meltas assist in combat that will most probably kill most troops.

 

While these guys won't win the war for the commander, they are streamlined for close range combat and to generally be superiour to tacticals in isloation within those ranges, getting off a volley of rounds and either engaging in a big, desevise brawl to pin them till the melee monsters can join in, or daring them to charge and getting a good counter charge off. Though tactical marines can run out of combat or out of range of assualt if shot at so that the more specialised troops can shoot clearly for they are designed to be the linesman, inflicting minor causailties, holding objectives and providing covering fire while the specialist fire is delivered to exactly where it is needed. Be it a Raider full of terminators, a command biker squad, stern guard or massing several tactical units to deliver the hurt.

 

 

As for special charcters, that accounts for a lot of differences, but also makes them a lot more expensive individally. Hence while it changes what roles they do preform, they have to fight harder for it to make back their individal costs. Plus chances are the Grey Hunters will use those points to get other special charcters. Abilitys including:

 

Furious Charge (Rengar)

Tank Hunter, Prefered enemy, Fearless, relentless. (All for Logan, Middle two for wolf priest) Living Legend (Logan)

Lord Of Tempests (Njal)

Ancient Tactician, Living Relic (Bjorn)

Saja of Mejestary (Ven Dread, Logan, Bjorn, Wolf Lord)

 

Though, buying those would have to be factored into the price of each grey hunter.

[Anpu42]

Thats why the Character cost a Arm and a Leg.

[Wysten]

Pretty much. Logan is a massive combat multiplier, as is Rengar, hence they cost a Land Raider. Though thats largely why special charcters are debateable. Not enough boys means no point in the fielding them.

 

But largely, they forfill two different roles. Probably why Space Wolves largely melee related stuff, largely due to the fact that Grey Hunters are stuck in combat until they win or break. Meaning the only way to assist if locked is to throw more units (Hopefully dedicated infantry destoryers) into the fray. Meaning a shooting phase is lost.

 

The trade offs are held elsewhere though, we get Thunder Wolves, they get Bikes and Scouts as troops. Both are tactically superiour to blood claws while Hunters are all we have. Though thats more getting into the region of Codex Vs Codex.

[Skirax]

Pretty much. Logan is a massive combat multiplier, as is Rengar, hence they cost a Land Raider. Though thats largely why special charcters are debateable. Not enough boys means no point in the fielding them.

 

But largely, they forfill two different roles. Probably why Space Wolves largely melee related stuff, largely due to the fact that Grey Hunters are stuck in combat until they win or break. Meaning the only way to assist if locked is to throw more units (Hopefully dedicated infantry destoryers) into the fray. Meaning a shooting phase is lost.

 

The trade offs are held elsewhere though, we get Thunder Wolves, they get Bikes and Scouts as troops. Both are tactically superiour to blood claws while Hunters are all we have. Though thats more getting into the region of Codex Vs Codex.

Ragnar :P

 

You have a very valid point with all this.

 

I was just trying to give a possible explanation for why the Grey Hunters cost less when they are (clearly) more awesome ;)

[jmurph]

Well, the simple answer is that tacs are slightly overpriced. They are a jack of all trades troop that isn't really that great at anything. The ability to take a heavy is nice, but not really necessary when you have HS options like longfangs (which are superior to devastators, but cannot take ablative wound troopers) and dual meltas/plasmas/flamers reinforce role better. Grey Hunters are what Tacs should be- a versatile mid range core trooper. What really lets tacs down is the lack of ccws so they get rolled in close combat by anything that is decent at HtH.

 

From my experience, GHs are just better in their role than tacs. Just as BA AMs are superior to tacs. I even prefer CSM, despite ATSKNF, because of BP/CCW/Bolter and 2x specials.

[Wysten]

I made a typo. >_<; XD

 

 

Aye, if they could take 2 heavys or two specials, tacs could be cool.

 

Just imagine those guys firing heavy weapons from the top hatch of a Rhino, thats awesome. Just I'm not too sold on firing special weapons out of the top, plus their libarians are really short ranged. I won't be bothered about assualting if I have a pair of heavy weapons and bolters going off so I will hopefully kill enough to take less damage in assualt. It fits into the more slower style of the typical tactical marine, who chances are would rather not get within special weapons range and would be more happy to just stay at maximin or beyond bolter range. Long as the specialist are doing their thing, they are happy to hold objectives and occationally attack when battle field is preferable.

[Wispy]

You're not sold at shooting a special weapon out of the top of a rhino?

 

Really?

 

I can't tell you have many walker maulings I've saved myself from by melting them from the hatch. Even if you fail to melt it, they have to blow up the rhino before they hurt you, so you typically can get at least one more shot off...

[Wysten]

You're not sold at shooting a special weapon out of the top of a rhino?

 

Really?

 

I can't tell you have many walker maulings I've saved myself from by melting them from the hatch. Even if you fail to melt it, they have to blow up the rhino before they hurt you, so you typically can get at least one more shot off...

 

Not when I can get a bigger version out and shoot them with that instead. Two Multmeltas sounds better then a melta and a Multmelta. XD What I meant was, I don't really see the point in giving a squad a choice of 1 of each. I would rather have 2 of one or the other depending on it's role in the big picture.

 

Special weapons I would imagine be more typical on an assualty squad, a squad that would expect to get into multiple fights and would probably shoot it before they joined battle. Grey Hunters fit that bill. Tacticals seem to fit the bill of tactical deployment, rather then stepping out, they bunker up unless they do more damage outside it or by driving around mult-meltaing.

 

Of course, if I had to, then I would. Just being a space wolf, I don't really have a choice in the matter. 2/3 Specials or none.

[Wispy]

But you can't move the rhino and shoot with the bigger ones. Moving counts as moving, regardless if you're embarked.

[Skirax]

Plus, if you don't destroy that nasty Deff Dred, he could shoot a nasty Kustom Mega-Blasta at the Rhino and then assault the tasty Tactical Squad sitting there going, ':blink: What the *beep* just went down?'

[The_Betrayed_Spacewolf]

i think i would do the blink what the thor?! if he actually hit.

[Wysten]

Thats all part of the advantage and disadvantage of taking them. Taking 1 or each seems to dilute it's role. Though I guess it's meant to repersent their balience, I don't see it.