Energy Weapons

[Ravenfeld]

Hello,

 

It has been a great deal of time since I last posted on these forums due to life taking me away from Warhammer 40k in general. Last I posted I was developing a Iron Hand list based around energy weapons. The logic is that since they are all about technology I figure they would be fielding a great deal of energy weapons in their forces.

 

So, I need a refresher. I love the idea of having tac squads totting plasma guns and plasma cannons around, as well as having dreadnaughts with Plasma Cannons / Lascannons, but is that a viable and competitive option?

 

Same thing with Thunder Hammers, Plasma Pistols, and Power Weapons, should I even bother equipping my sarge's and HQ with this stuff or is it just a point sink? I have a tendency to get carried away with Wargear so I need to make sure I am not shooting myself in the foot.

 

Over all I love the idea, I can field Lascannons for anti-vehicle and the Plasma should clean anything else up, right?

 

Any insight would be appreciated.

[Xeonic]

Plasma cannon are arguably the most efficient heavy weapon a tac squad can carry.

Meltaguns and plasma guns are also in my estimation both very competitive choices.

 

Thunderhammers are good, but available in limited quantities due to the limitations of who can carry them, but I can't recommend giving an IC a weapon that strikes at I1 ever.

Plasma pistols are kinda bad, not only are they only 1 shot that costs 15 pts, they could overheat and take your expensive SCCW out. I like them, but they seem like a really inefficient use of points given the alternatives.

 

I'm torn on dread lascannon, the only other weapon that meshes with it well is the missile launcher, which is "meh" in general, and if you take an autocannon you can't hurt AV 13 easily with it. I haven't tried this combo, mind, but on paper it looks slightly defocused, the lascannon is overkill for transport popping use(and frankly, the autocannon is better), and the autocannon suffers vs higher AV targets, and can't hurt AV14 at all. I'd be tempted to just field lascannon with DCCU/hflamer and use them as hybrid units.

EDIT: the couple times I fielded a PC/ML dread I was fairly impressed though, the high strength low AP missile is good when you have to krak transports with it and the blast is great vs low T hordes. Additionally vs MEQ you get a nice high strength shot that can ID along with your plasma template. What's not to like?

 

You might consider Las/plas or TLLC razorbacks for your troop transports.

Trilas preds are good, but I feel they're overcosted.

You might also consider thunderfire cannon, they seem like the type of thing iron hands would field.

[Ravenfeld]

Excellent Excellent, well you are on the same track as me it seems, I have considered both Razorbacks and Thunderfire Cannons.

 

On the topic of Plasma Pistols / Thunder Hammers, well I figure I might just end up using a "counts as" Lysander to get my thunder hammer IC in there. As for the Plasma pistols well I like them because they mesh well with my energy weapon theme, but if I can't use them maybe I could take Power Weapons instead? Still energy based so I can have my cake and eat it too?

 

Also, one of my lists includes a MotF (surprise) which is based around Dreadnaughts and Drop Pods. Should I place my Lascannon on one of my regular dreads or on my Ven dread? Essentially I will be using one Plasma Cannon (or two), one Lascannon, and an Ironclad. My main concern is that I won't have enough heavy firepower to take out that AV13+ so I might need to tweak it here or there. I was considering using a scout on a LSS to meltabomb prime targets and perhaps using a Sternguard squad in a pod as tank hunters. Not sure though.

 

Please moar thoughts!

[Xeonic]

Strictly speaking a regular dread gets the most benefit from the twin linking of the lascannon, whereas teh ven. dread's improved BS helps the non linked weapons more. That's all academic though, give whatever dread the weapon that lets it perform the role assigned it. <_<

Still, all I'm trying to say is that an assault cannon or multi-melta on BS5 is a fairly drastic improvement, whereas the twin linked las is already twin linked and thus, extremely accurate as such weapons go.

 

There's nothing wrong with plasma pistols except the horrendous points cost, to be honest. If you want to use them then by all means do. ;)

I've fielded PP/PW sarges, PP/CCW sarges and tried PP/fist sarge once(he overheated and died on his first shot of course, at which point I hacked off his PP arm for a bolter, I'm ruthless when it comes to the performance of my sarges).

I prefer my sarges with just a fist, if possible, at least for forward aggressively kitted squads. Power Fists are also a complex marvel of science so are fitting for iron hands(maybe?).

[Ravenfeld]

On the topic of the Dreads, I was under the impression that blast weapons don't really make use of the BS of the wielder either? Am I wrong (It has been ages since I last played a 40k game)? So then the point is moot on the BS 5 regardless.

 

I have come to terms with the overheating and I feel like it is worth the risk, simply for themes sake. Power fists are indeed technologically advanced, however my Death Guard are prolific with their power fists and I don't want to make a good version of my chaos army, if you get my meaning. I would rather use Thunder Hammers than fists if given the opportunity, and barring that I would use Power Weapons, unless of course this is gunna be a huge kick in the competitive pants, then I would consider it.

 

But my force is going to be more of a gunline than an assaulty list due to the rapid fire / heavy categories of my plasma weaponry I don't see myself advancing rapidly. Not to mention the techmarines reinforcing terrain so that I can make the most of my defensive position. Conceptually that is the plan, whether games will pan out like that or not has yet to be seen. I don't think I could get away with that against certain opponents like Eldar or Tau who will force me to come to them one way or another. (But thats what the drop pod list is for). Anyway, you're right on the point cost of the PP, it is steep for a 12 inch shot, so maybe i'll just give him a plasma attachment to his boltgun and toss a power weapon on him and call it a day... and by him I mean all three of my tac squad sarges.

 

Any ideas for good techno tank hunters?

[Koremu]

Any ideas for good techno tank hunters?

Technologically Advanced + Energy Weapons + Tank Hunting = Multi-Melta Land Speeder

[Ravenfeld]

Would you really consider a multi-melta an energy weapon? I suppose it is thermal energy isn't it? hehe.

[Koremu]

They are energy weapons. Ranged microwave projection.

[minigun762]

Over all I love the idea, I can field Lascannons for anti-vehicle and the Plasma should clean anything else up, right?

 

I thought about doing something very similar to this too at one time but didn't end up going for it.

 

Instead of the usual Missile Launcher and ammo based weapons, load up on the more exotic types.

 

For Tac Squads I think a Plasma Cannon/Meltagun combo would be very effective. PC gives you a weapon to take out infantry and wound MCs and light armor at range plus it has some anti-horde abilities whereas the Meltagun give you the up close power needed for the heavy armor and to finish the job. Maybe toss the squad in a Razorback (which according to the new Codex is very IH friendly) for extra firepower.

 

For Dreads, my rule of thumb is TL weapons are best given to normal Dreads and normal weapons to Ven. Dreads. In the end, both will have an 80%+ chance to hit which is pretty good. For Blast weapons, the BS5 helps you land on target more often but its less of an upgrade then a normal weapon. I like the idea of Ven. Dreads getting either the Multi-Melta or Assault Cannon and keeping their DCCW as this gives you the most benefits from both their BS5 and WS5.

 

Speeders seem more hi-tech to me then say Bikes. If you are already going the MotF route, you could load up on Dreads, a combination of MM Ven. Dreads and Hellfire Dreads should give you the tank busting you need.

 

As for the Power Fist/Hammer/Weapon issue for your squads, think about taking a mix of the Hammers and Weapons. Hammers are nice against the big things but unlike your Chaos buddies you lack the standard 2 attacks per guy which means you are more exposed to hordies where the extra attack and I4 swings of the PW might turn the tide.

[Ravenfeld]

Thanks Mini, I remember way back when you were new to the forums as well, hehe.

 

On the subject of squad set up, I don't know if I would throw meltaguns in the units, as I am trying to make a gunline, if anything I would make a squad strictly for tank hunting (which may be a sternguard unit).

 

Now as for Dreads, well they will all be keeping their DCCW because we are Iron Hands, and that is how we roll. So I will definitly take all that into consideration. I Could do a Ven with a MM and DCCW and a Ironclad for my melee tank hunter Dreads and have two ranged normal dreads, one with a PC and one with a TL LC. That is for my MotF force anyway.

 

I adore the idea of Razorbacks, but is it worth dividing my squads into combat squads to make full use of them? I also think I would need to have just that many more. I have often considered a Devastator Squad with a Razorback making a potent fire base. I'll be it an expensive one.

 

I am not a huge fan of Fast Attack in general, although if I were to field some Fast Attack it would definitely be Speeders and Assault Troops. The Only Speeder I have plans for atm is the Land Speeder Storm for my Shotgun totting scout squadron. I know way back when the Great Crusade sold me on the idea.

 

Thanks for your insight!

[minigun762]

I adore the idea of Razorbacks, but is it worth dividing my squads into combat squads to make full use of them? I also think I would need to have just that many more. I have often considered a Devastator Squad with a Razorback making a potent fire base. I'll be it an expensive one.

 

If you are going with a small Dev squad, you're actually better off going with Sternguard and 2 Heavies as its cheaper and you can toss in the extra firepower of the special Bolters.

 

With the Razorback, you can always put the heavy in one CS and the special in the other with the Razorback, this gives you a little more mobility for claiming objectives.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Plasma is very good, though in the 5th ed meta game melta tends to outperform it. I tend to prefer fists over hammers as most things are going to die from it so the I reduction rarely comes into play, though it is nice to auto stun (or is it shake?) vehicles. If you ever have the option of pwoer weapon or lightning claw, take the claw the reroll to wound is almost always beter than the extra attack. Plasma pistols tend to not be worth there points as they only get used once or twice per game (as the short range means the next step is to charge or be charged), as such a combi-melta will normaly outperform and be cheaper.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

My Iron Hands Tactical Squads all have plasma pistol/power fist SGTs, plasma rifles (plasma "gun" just sounds so. . . pedestrian! They're ALL guns.), and plasma cannons. I've found that a lot of the times, the pistol shot either fries the power fist, never shoots, or is superfluous due to the presence of seven bolters and two other longer-ranged plasma weapons. So I am going to be converting all of my SGTs over to combi-meltas so that my squads can pop heavy armor if the need arises.

 

Now, if you're going to go power weapon instead of fist, I think I'd stick with the plasma pistol -- you get +1 attack for the combo. I went for the p-fists for the whole "Hand" part of the Iron Hands and p-fists can no longer get extra attacks with pistols of any sort; in short, my benefit from the plasma pistol is minimal.

 

And one last note -- if you're going for an energy-weapon-heavy list, you MUST -- as in, I will (sarcastically) threaten bodily harm if you don't -- include a Master of the Forge with a conversion beamer, the single most powerful beam weapon in the C:SM army.

[Xeonic]

plasma rifles (plasma "gun" just sounds so. . . pedestrian! They're ALL guns.), and plasma cannons. I've found that a lot of the times, the pistol shot either fries the power fist,

But they're not really rifles, as that denotes the machined groove used to stabilize the trajectory of a hard round as is most modern firearms. Of course, lasrifles aren't really rifles either.

 

I have a combi plasma sergeant that has overheated and blown himself in all games I've fielded him. It's statistically unlikely, but it has happened anyways. He used to have a fist too, before I got angry and hacked it off in a fit of rage. I'm now sitting in the camp that plasma weapons on sergeants are a generally bad idea, unless they're taken alone.

 

Plasma cannon are fantastic, though bad scatter rolls can ruin your day. :yes:

[Ravenfeld]

My Iron Hands Tactical Squads all have plasma pistol/power fist SGTs, plasma rifles (plasma "gun" just sounds so. . . pedestrian! They're ALL guns.), and plasma cannons. I've found that a lot of the times, the pistol shot either fries the power fist, never shoots, or is superfluous due to the presence of seven bolters and two other longer-ranged plasma weapons. So I am going to be converting all of my SGTs over to combi-meltas so that my squads can pop heavy armor if the need arises.

 

Now, if you're going to go power weapon instead of fist, I think I'd stick with the plasma pistol -- you get +1 attack for the combo. I went for the p-fists for the whole "Hand" part of the Iron Hands and p-fists can no longer get extra attacks with pistols of any sort; in short, my benefit from the plasma pistol is minimal.

 

And one last note -- if you're going for an energy-weapon-heavy list, you MUST -- as in, I will (sarcastically) threaten bodily harm if you don't -- include a Master of the Forge with a conversion beamer, the single most powerful beam weapon in the C:SM army.

 

I'll start with your last note first - I have every intention of fielding a MotF in atleast one of my current army lists, however his presence is to allow me access to a delicious field of dreadnaught badassery and to repair said badassery as needed. Now, I suppose I could alter his function to make him use his railgun from a nice bulwarked position, flanked by two plasmacannon totting servitors for extra umph, but we will see what I need and how things work out.

 

Now, if the Plasma Pistol is such a huge problem and will end up slaying my Sarge's more often than not, perhaps simply holding on to the "bolt pistol" would be sufficient for the bonus attack in close combat, and mayhaps a combi-melta might be a better application of the points. As you said it gives the unit a little more versatility. As for the Iron Hands using Power Fists, well that makes sense and fits just fine, and I -will- have some power fists sprinkled throughout, but I don't want it to be mandatory on all my sarge's simply because, as I stated, my Deathguard are "heavy handed" (har har, I are funny) as it is so I don't wanna just make the same list over on my loyalist side ya know? I mean I can see a power sword as being deadly enough right? Especially if I am fielding 4 dreads, I am sure their DCCW can handle any huge threats that need to be taken care of in close quarters?

 

@Xeonic - Thanks for the insight, I think I will avoid Plasma Pistols on Sarges for now, I might toss them on some other units, like assault marines or some such down the road. As for the Plasma Cannons, well scatters are something we all have to live with, but if I am willing to risk the thing blowing up I think I can handle a scatter :yes:

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, if you're sticking with power weapons for the SGTs, stick with bolt pistols for the extra attack and not a combi-weapon. My advice to to make your special weapon bearer a melta to handle armor.

[Brother Valerius]

On the topic of the Dreads, I was under the impression that blast weapons don't really make use of the BS of the wielder either? Am I wrong (It has been ages since I last played a 40k game)? So then the point is moot on the BS 5 regardless.

 

IIRC, you subtract the BS score from the scatter amount, so it can be useful for scatter weapons too.

[Ryjak]

A simple solution is to model your Veteran Sergeants with a bolt pistol in one hand, and a plasma pistol in the other. Make it clear the plasma pistol represents a power weapon, and you're set.

 

In fact, I may do just that for my Scout Sergeants...

[Fetterkey]

A simple solution is to model your Veteran Sergeants with a bolt pistol in one hand, and a plasma pistol in the other. Make it clear the plasma pistol represents a power weapon, and you're set.

 

In fact, I may do just that for my Scout Sergeants...

 

Many people would not accept that conversion. I would generally expect a Sergeant with a bolt pistol and plasma pistol to be armed with a bolt pistol and a plasma pistol, not a power weapon and plasma pistol or power weapon and bolt pistol.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, if my fluff is correct, the Iron Hands LOVE Razors so I would spam them if your really fluffy

Also, Las spam Is good against long ranged tanks which is helpful.

[Gearhead]

A simple solution is to model your Veteran Sergeants with a bolt pistol in one hand, and a plasma pistol in the other. Make it clear the plasma pistol represents a power weapon, and you're set.

 

In fact, I may do just that for my Scout Sergeants...

 

I'd throw a Servo Arm on 'em, magnetize the tip. Clamp for a fist, blade for a powerweapon. Then just put whatever you want in his hands. WYSIWIG problem solved.

 

If you want to keep the high tech theme and have bikes, make jetbikes. I've seen it done several times. You mentioned you played Chaos, do you have Havoc Launchers spare? If you do, they are awesome to put on the back of bikes to make jetbike thrusters. I don't think anyone will care about the fluff if it looks cool.

 

A friend and I were joking about how to make a MoTF with a conversion beamer make sense for Iron Hands. The solution was an Iron Man suit; jet around and fire beams out of your chest. I've also seen someone use a Defiler CCW weapon without the goofy flail thing (just the arm it attaches to) and just have a big ol' cannon on the back of a bike. Again, another benefit of your playing chaos.

[Grey Mage]

I find the best solution for scout based powerfists is the 2nd ed assault weapon sprue- the one you got with a power axe, fist, etc....

 

The arm is skinnier, like modern day scouts, and the shoulder on it is actually sculpted- looks like it could be a scout shoulder without any conversion needed at all.