vindicators

[chaplain belisarius]

hi,

 

i like vindicators and im wondering which legions they are fluffy for(apart from iron warriors, of course...)

 

thanks...:D

[Legatus]

Iron Warriors. And that's about it.

 

In the Index Astartes series and the 3.5 Codex the Iron Warriors were the only Legion that had access to the Vindicator, as prior to the current Codex Chaos Space Marines it had been a loyalist Vehicle. Iron Warriors were said to often salvage heavy siege vehicles from loyalist Astartes or the Imperial Guard, so they had acces to Vindicators and Basilisks.

In the 4th Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines GW has done what they had doen for the other Codices of the current generation, and had consolidated a lot of the former "variant specific" choices into one single list, similar to how Eldar now get Jetbikes as Troops (formerly Saim-Hann only), Wraithguard as Troops (formerly Iyanden only) or have Pathfinder units (formerly Alaitoc only), the dropped limitations for Raptors or Obliterators or the inclusion of the Vindicator are mainly meant to allow for some of the formerly variant armies. So while you now potentially could field Vindicators in all the Legions, from a background point of view it is only really appropriate for Iron Warriors.

 

You could probably convert it heavily (perhaps embedding the WHFB Hellcannon on a Rhino Chassis) and use it's rules for a Cannon of Khorne.

[chaplain belisarius]

thanks legatus! was thinking of getting either night lords, black legion or iron warriors(im not planning on taking anything daemonic apart from a daemon prince-mostly because i love the new model!)

 

@legatus-if i send you my list would you be able to give me some pointers on which legion this suits in terms of fluff?

[Legatus]

I could do that, but you could also ask in the Forums. That would perhaps give you more feedback than just from me. Generally, a "generic" army list can be played for all the five undivided Legions. Only when you want focus heavily on a certain aspect one or another of the Legions might be more suitable.

[minigun762]

Legatus is 100% right with the history of the Vindicator and Chaos but there are a few other ways to look at it.

1) The current codex refers to many Vindicators being used at the siege on Terra and while its likely that the vast majority of them were in fact IW, its possible that other Legions had commited a few.

2) Newer renegade forces might very well have Vindicators from their days of being Loyalists and those could still be being used now.

3) When in doubt, they stole it from some Loyalists, though in this case I think it looks most convincing if you paint it up as Loyalist and then put Chaos markings over it.

[chaplain belisarius]

thanks...!

 

so vindis are more of an iw thing then?

[the jeske]

not in the new fluff. the new fluff tells us close to nothing about how legions work [save for the happy family part] . as there are no legion armies anymore and they are a legal option they are fluffy for anything you want to play.

[Legatus]

I missed the part in the new Codex where it says that the Index Astartes articles are now considered null.

[Lay]

Imperial Armour 6 has some fluff on Chaos Vindicators. According to it, Vindicators became somewhat rare among the traitor legions due to attrition and supply difficulties after the Heresy. The Iron Warriors are noted as being the only ones who field them frequently. It also mentions sightings of newly constructed ones during the 13th Black Crusade which led to in-universe speculation that some Chaos faction has begun to mass-produce them.

There's also a photo of a World Eaters Vindicator.

[the jeske]

I missed the part in the new Codex where it says that the Index Astartes articles are now considered null.

 

new codex fluff always makes old stuff void. the IA stuff were an adition to the 3ed book or the 3.5 codex [depanding on the time when they came out , and sometimes the IA stuff was different from the 3.5 stuff] . the Gav dex says nothing about vidicators being IW only[in fact it tells us close to 0 fluff] which more or less means that in the world of chaos happy family the vindi is a free for all and fluffy for all choice.

[Legatus]

new codex fluff always makes old stuff void.

No it doesn't. :huh: Are you suggesting that the entire 2nd Edition background for Blood Angels was nonexistant during 3rd and 4th Edition because it had not been included in the 3rd Edition Codex? And that it only now has become official again as it is being repeated in the 4th Edition PDF and the 5th Edition Codex?

[Xeonic]

Do not try to bend the fluff, that's impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth, there is no fluff. Then you'll see it is not the fluff that bends, only yourself. :huh:

 

I'm of the camp that the newer fluff adds to the older fluff, and where it conflicts, newer fluff overrides, as newer fluff is generally dictated by the direction GW is trying to send the 40k universe.

 

Vindis would be possessed by many legions IMO, leftovers from the heresy or captured in combat, perhaps not in large numbers like the IW field them, though more recently heretical or piratical chapters would bring fresh vindicators with them.

 

Vindicators are not subtle and in the fluff and on the table their outlook renders them less survivable than other tanks, thus I'll postulate there would be fewer vindicators in most legions than other armor, however, those legions that had vindis in the great crusade probably retained some after they fled the scene in the heresy along with their other armor.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Could the Thousand Sons use them?

[hazardousZERO]

When the time comes my Pre Heresy (during heresy) World Eaters will have 3 vindicaters. Now I know that its not real fluffily but in gaming terms i love having 3 of them mostily in games of cities of death and apocalypse.

[chaplain belisarius]

thanks for the very chaotic replies! im even more confused now...:D

[BlackSpike]

im even more confused now...:D

Then our work here is done! :D

[chaplain belisarius]

:D

[Vodunius]

new codex fluff always makes old stuff void. the IA stuff were an adition to the 3ed book or the 3.5 codex [depanding on the time when they came out , and sometimes the IA stuff was different from the 3.5 stuff] . the Gav dex says nothing about vidicators being IW only[in fact it tells us close to 0 fluff] which more or less means that in the world of chaos happy family the vindi is a free for all and fluffy for all choice.

 

Quoted for Truth.

 

And for the record the RT era fluff stated that the Vindicator was invented by loyalists during the Heresy but that it was in widespread use by both sides within a matter of months - at least thats what the Codex Titanicus supplement for EPIC said, I'm assuming that the same thing was said in the 40k article as one of (quite possibly THE) earliest 40k scale Vindicators to grace the pages of WD was an Emperors Children one from the Siege of Terra. So the 4e codex is more of a return to the original fluff rather than a blasphemous retcon in this regard.

 

addendum, ahh here we are:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/vinec.jpg

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r155/khromash/vinec2.jpg

[Legatus]

new codex fluff always makes old stuff void. the IA stuff were an adition to the 3ed book or the 3.5 codex [depanding on the time when they came out , and sometimes the IA stuff was different from the 3.5 stuff] . the Gav dex says nothing about vidicators being IW only[in fact it tells us close to 0 fluff] which more or less means that in the world of chaos happy family the vindi is a free for all and fluffy for all choice.

Quoted for Truth.

When a nex Codex changes the fluff, then it overrides the earlier sources. But when it just doesn't mention certain bits, then those are still canonical. Such as Jonsons body being kept in the depths of the Rock. Or in this case that the Iron Warriors have a preference for heavy siege machinery. Their background and theme are not deleted and a blank slate only because the current Codex does not have a description of them.

[Xeonic]

"Overwhelming success has not preserved the Vindicator from alterations over the course of centuries. Indeed, there has been a steady stream of upgrades and technological tweaks to the vehicle pattern as time has passed. The most significant of these alterations has been the replacement of the bulky thunderer cannon with the much more compact, but no less potent, demolisher cannon... "Codex Space Marines, Page 80

 

As you can see, it's built on the original fluff(thunderer cannon), and expanded it to M41.

The change on the TT is probably because the thunderer cannon was(if my faulty memory recalls) a longrange cannon of death, which doesn't really suit SM doctrines of engagement.

Though it is interesting to note that the FW thunderer is also armed with a demolisher instead of a thunderer cannon.