Dilema

[glider0880]

Hey,

Played a remarkably dull, boring and even depressing game yesterday whereby my entire force was completely deystroyed with my opponent losing a single kill point.

This was achieved by him discovering that by carefull canny placement he could grant all his units a 2+ cover save by going to ground and using a certain order. Then, in the next turn, he uses another order, which lets the squads get back up and act as normal.

 

Effectively his men are granted a 2+ save whatever I shoot at him.

 

So how can I beat this guy, by the looks of things I either have to deystoy his command squads or just assault all the men.

Any tactics, ideas?

 

I can post my list if needs be.

[Zarnak]

You can always spam with 30 sternguards and death company him to death in CC? Astorath as HQ ofcourse.

 

What kind of list is he playing? Mech Heavy? You can also tank-shock the cowering foes.

 

Oh. And you should always post your list if you want tactical recommendations. Helps a lot.

[BlackSpike]

Template Weapons (e.g. Flamers) ignore cover saves, as do several other weapons.

 

Assaulting will remove his saves, and IG are not that good at close combat.

[Vodunius]

Any tactics, ideas?

 

In 40k, as in real life, tactics pretty much boils down to knowing that if the enemy is using scissors then you attack him your rock not your paper. You've pretty much nailed it with:

by the looks of things I either have to deystoy his command squads or just assault all the men.

[Terrahawk]

Yep, I agree with what has been said earlier - get into Assault and watch them crumble.

 

Also, outflanking Baals with flame weaponry are brutal against IG.

[Emperors Immortals]

yeah, ivew got a guy like that.

 

DP DC near to HQ - with the stabiliser rule you can effectivly not scatter if youre close to other units (just land between them) - one turn of being shot at? FNP.

 

Even stern guard with two HF will do the trick - remember you just nee to tie up/destroy the HQ units - not the whole army.

 

Also, baal preds scout and infiltrate and have crematory trength flamers - im just saying........

[Brother_Dan'l]

Seriously? :P With Descent of Angels on Honor Guard (up to 4 templates) or VAS (up to 10 flame templates! For only 350 points including a Drop Pod :P ) or any other BA Assault Squad (attach Dante for 0% scatter), Frag Cannon Furioso Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods or Stormravens, Sternguard with Heavy Flamers and Dragonfire Bolts, Librarians with Fear of the Darkness, Land Speeders with dual Heavy Flamers, Deep Striking Land Raider Redeemers loaded with... Etc, etc, etc... ^_^

 

We've truly got an unending number of options for dealing with IG infantry units. But since you are never going to run into just the infantry you need to go with units that will let you deal with any sort of mix he may throw down on the table. So a Baal with Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamers coming in from a flank can bag infantry or armor with equal ease. As can any of our vehicles that Outflank or Deep Strike, as long as you equip them properly.

 

The only time that it might be harder than it needs to be is if you rely on Razorspam. You'll need to make use of Drop Pods, Stormravens and Descent of Angels.

[Anarchyman99]

Give hims some Whirlwind Incendiary Castellan Missiles.....or Mephiston, Lord of Death. or Deep Strike a Land Raider Redeemer....

[Leonaides]

Rhino-mounted combat squads (or Razorbacks for that mater) - drive-by flamers. Landspeeders (singles, rather than pairs) with MM/HF (able to threaten infantry or tanks with ease). Whirlwinds, Basic Dreadnought with MM and upgrade the Storm Bolter to a HF and put him in a Drop Pod... All of these are easy things to do, and if you do it once, he'll never rely on that tactic again (because its actually rather easy to counter with a generic build army). The best bit being, against any IG army, any of htose units will be useful, whether he goes Mech, Horde or Combined Arms...

[BOBMAKENZIE]

Just as a note. His manoeuvrer is illegal. All Orders happen at the start of his Shooting Phase. Going from highest to lowest ranking officer. The moment he orders his units to dig i they get their +2 and gone to ground but at that point they cannot shoot anymore. And since orders can only be given one at a time (unless Snake Eyes is rolled for their test) they will only ever be able to get down or stand back up and shoot very very rarely both in the same turn.

[Oloff Hammeraxe]

Just as a note. His manoeuvrer is illegal. All Orders happen at the start of his Shooting Phase. Going from highest to lowest ranking officer. The moment he orders his units to dig i they get their +2 and gone to ground but at that point they cannot shoot anymore. And since orders can only be given one at a time (unless Snake Eyes is rolled for their test) they will only ever be able to get down or stand back up and shoot very very rarely both in the same turn.

 

 

This may be true, unless he's taking cover in bunkers or something else which normally gives him a 3+ cover, which I doubt. He can still use this tactic, legally at that, and still get a 3+, since he can normally go to ground when he's taking hits, and then can spring back up with the next order.

But that's beside the point! What're you doing getting into firefights with Guard?! Get stuck in and slaughter the ever-living piss outta them! If he's playing this tactic, he doesn't sound all that mechanized, so jump up there and smack his guys into paste. Remember, cover saves NEVER apply to assault wounds!

[glider0880]

Yeah cheers guys. M8 of mine PM'd me bout this so i'd though i'd share.

He cant get a 2+ cover save, its +2 to his cover save, and if he goes to ground, thats a 4+.

 

Just phoned him up and gave him the verbal one-two, garghhhh!

Curse the bastard!

[Zeller]

Not quite. If he's in cover his save goes from a 4+ to a 2+ so, yes, he can get a 2+ cover save. If in the open then you've already covered that.

 

You might try whirl winds or drop podded dreadnoughts with frag cannons. Get in nice and close.

[glider0880]

I never really had much luck with frag cannons tbh. I'll give them another try sometime

[The Oakenshield]

Why are people saying IG suck in CC?

 

A big Blob-Squad of 50 guys with 5 Commisars and 5 Power Weapon Sergeants is disgustingly powerful.

 

40 Attacks and 30 Power Weapon attacks, Ld9 Stubborn rerollable.

 

And if you put Straken in there they get Furious Charge and a really strong character!

[Terrahawk]

Why are people saying IG suck in CC?

 

A big Blob-Squad of 50 guys with 5 Commisars and 5 Power Weapon Sergeants is disgustingly powerful.

 

40 Attacks and 30 Power Weapon attacks, Ld9 Stubborn rerollable.

 

And if you put Straken in there they get Furious Charge and a really strong character!

 

They suck compared to the mighty Angels of Baal. :D

[Leonaides]

And that big blob squad becomes just so much flamer-bait... Seriously - how many points would that be? 60ish per squad, plus 5 commissars at 50-ish each? 550ish plus Straken? I dont care how good they are - charge them with 20 assault marines and a Sang priest (so they'll still be going first), or a good-sized DC and Chaplain, and there wont be many left at all.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Flame them then mass assaults. I once had the Sanguinor hold up a blob for four rounds of close combat before an assault squad could lend some support to help finish them off.

 

0b :)

[BladeEncarmine]

The problem with the 55-man stubborn IG squad with 10 PWs is that while it'll almost never run and it will probably hurt most infantry it comes up against, it's still a bunch of S3 Guardsmen making all those swings for a roughly 400 point investment. Anything T5 or greater will most likely hold them there forever, with C'tan, Wraithlords and Taloses being utterly immune to their attacks. And that's not even considering a walker deciding to play with them. Also, the 55-man squad is horribly vulnerable to blasts and templates, especially when you consider things like Whirlwinds firing shots at them.

 

So while Guardsmen can pull off the "SQUAD OF INFANTRY DEATH", it's an easy to counter tactic. My favourite solution is the application of a Blood-Taloned Furioso Dread :) .

[Leardinal]

Basically all shooting and melee tactics for countering this have been covered, I would just love to point out that although bikes are not popular, I have had great success with them vs guard, both against castles, Plate spam, Russ rush, gunline, and coronations of all of the above.

 

I run a 5 man squad with a power fist, 2 melta guns, an attack bike with multi melta, a priest on a bike, and a Reclusiach on a bike. Expensive? 485pts with including IC's, so yes. Worth it? Depends on your point of view. 3+ cover from turbo boost just rocks, rapid fire twin linked bolters + charge cleaves through almost any infantry squad or at least pulp a good chunk of a bog squad, but best of all: guard need 4+ to hit in cc normally, then they need 6's to wound, every time I have smashed the bikes into a bog squad (always 22 men), I watch as maybe one out of 4 power weapons actually get through.

 

Against the 2+ cover, put 2 flamers in the squad. Fry swathes of guards men, then charge in with the bikes or an RAS near by.

 

Of course, like most guard armies, cut off the head and the body dies.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I agree with the comments about using Whirlwind Incendiary Castellan shells. As most IG infantry have 5+ armor, the WP rounds ignore both saves. A pair of Whirlwinds will make an infantry-based IG army cry or mech up (in which case you have a different set of problems). If the Command Squads are on foot, pound them, otherwise you can focus on their infantry. Also, the Whirlwind can be used for counter-battery fire against IG Artillery, at S5 Ordnance that hits the side armor (usually 10 on IG Artillery)

 

You can also swap out the Whirlie Launcher for a TL Assault Cannon and you have an instant Razorback for games where you know you will not be facing footslogger armies.

[Grey Mage]

Hey,

Played a remarkably dull, boring and even depressing game yesterday whereby my entire force was completely deystroyed with my opponent losing a single kill point.

This was achieved by him discovering that by carefull canny placement he could grant all his units a 2+ cover save by going to ground and using a certain order. Then, in the next turn, he uses another order, which lets the squads get back up and act as normal.

 

Effectively his men are granted a 2+ save whatever I shoot at him.

 

So how can I beat this guy, by the looks of things I either have to deystoy his command squads or just assault all the men.

Any tactics, ideas?

 

I can post my list if needs be.

Tell him to follow the rules.

 

He has to declare, and issue, 'incoming' during his own turn. If he wants to reconsider it he can try to give them back up with another order... but he cant just declare it at random during your shooting phase.

[Brother_Dan'l]

I agree with the comments about using Whirlwind Incendiary Castellan shells. As most IG infantry have 5+ armor, the WP rounds ignore both saves. A pair of Whirlwinds will make an infantry-based IG army cry or mech up (in which case you have a different set of problems). If the Command Squads are on foot, pound them, otherwise you can focus on their infantry. Also, the Whirlwind can be used for counter-battery fire against IG Artillery, at S5 Ordnance that hits the side armor (usually 10 on IG Artillery)

 

You can also swap out the Whirlie Launcher for a TL Assault Cannon and you have an instant Razorback for games where you know you will not be facing footslogger armies.

The Whirlwind is a perfect counter to any Chimera based vehicle. With indirect fire striking the side armor you've got two chance to roll 5+ thanks to Ordnance and so tear a hole in him. Makes counter battery fire a viable option with only a little luck.