Vanguard Veterans

[Joasht]

I did a quick searchy on Vanguards and didn't see many threads regarding them; just a few threads on "what to give them" and the good old "do they have DoA?" question. Anyway this thread is less of a "what should I give them" thread, but more of a "so have you guys found any use for them?".

 

This thought came to me when I heard some people talking (literally talking; didn't read this on the forum :D) about how awesome Vanguards are, because Heroic Intervention + DoA = awesome. However, upon looking at their rules myself, they seemed fairly risky; each naked Jump Pack Vanguard marine is a good 12 points more than your average Assault Marine, and when all that is said and done, you have to deepstrike them, which is incredibly risky due to numerous factors.

 

What this leaves you with is a (usually) small squad (to avoid mishaps on deepstrike, and to minimize your loss should something terrible happen) which also means less bodies. And if you don't Deepstrike them, you are effectively forfeiting their Heroic Intervention, which is surely factored into their costs somehow. Not to mention the "awesome LC + SS" marine practically costs as much as a landspeeder all by himself......

 

So what do you guys think, have they been working for you, or did many of you come to the same conclusion as myself?

 

Thanks!

[Tame]

I asked the same question a few months back, I'm too lazy to find the post atm :-)

 

The most important answer: they are fun.

 

I play them in my all jump packs army, and sometimes they fail catastrophically (mishaps, landing too far from their target, landing on turn 2 with no enemy transports opened yet...), sometimes they do exactly what I intended them to do (block an annoying enemy unit in CC), sometimes they are awesome and exceed my expectations, killing multiple units or helping contesting objectives!

 

I usually play 1 or 2 squads of 5, with one Thunder Hammer (because it looks cool and just in case they land too early without backup, so that they can still hit transports) on the sergeant and 1 to 5 Storm Shields depending on the points. I don't use them as a super killy unit, I use them to tie down enemy units while surviving as long as possible.

[Taz]

I was confused about their rules too. If you look at the jump pack section of the equipment list it says that anything with one has DoA, so you're good off of that. As for what to put on it, I'm sure the other people on here would know better than I. So far I've only got one squad of them and I kept them out of the box stock. Well, I also got the BA-specific sergeant with the sword and hand flamer.

 

Edit: Ah-durr. This is what I get for getting on the B&C right after waking up.

 

I enjoy playing them. The DoA + HE don't always work, but when they do it feels like a match made in heaven. They ARE assault marines and therefore fairly fragile, but nobody can deny their effectiveness when used properly.

[jeremy1391]

I find them pretty awesome I run six 3 power weapon 1 power fist 2 plain they work most of the time..... But sometime they fail horribly.

[Thornoo1]

I run 1 squad in armies from 1500pts and above, they work more often the you think. Really treat them as an suicide sqaud and you won't go wrong. They are the unit you use when something annoying must die. Don't throw them agianst elite CC units and you should be ok. Or as a support assault/counter assault sqaud. Remeber you don't have to use the DoA reroll if you fail their reserve roll. You can bring them on later in the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are the ultimate assassins in 5ed. They are great at removing units usually impossible to reach such as Long Fangs/Devs.

 

0b ;)

[JamesI]

I enjoyed them, but also found that its possible to overdo it with them. My opinion, if the goal is to HI with them, keep the squad small and relatively cheap (5-7 guys with a few upgrades)

[Redfinger]

I was thinking of running a 10 man VV squad and giving 4 melta's and 5 P/SS and 1 glaive and melta bombs...my plan was to combat squad them, send the melta's to one target and the PF's to another target. Is this over kill, poor tactic...I love this topic and the discussion so far, very helpful.

 

Ashton

[Kunanaki]

Couple of questions. Can you use Dante with them? To drop them in perfectly? Do they convey their HI to him? How about to a chaplain or a priest?

[jeremy1391]

Attached characters can't use HI it says in the rules for heroic itervention.

[Joasht]

Couple of questions. Can you use Dante with them? To drop them in perfectly? Do they convey their HI to him? How about to a chaplain or a priest?

Dante can join them and can use his ability to ensure they deep strike without a risk of scatter, but the problem is Heroic Intervention states it can't be used if any IC's join the unit :/

 

But for the other HQ choices do you REALLY want to deep strike such an expensive unit at point-blank range with risk of scatter? Sure its just 1D6, but if you wanted to drop within HI range (6") you probably either need to drop close enough to make it work and risk a mishap table roll, or drop far enough to be safe but likely to be out of HI range.

 

EDIT: Lol jeremy beat me to the reply ><

[Joasht]

Bumping this thread back up after 10 days as a thought came across my mind last night.

 

What if instead of just one unit loaded to the teeth but treated as a suicide squad, what do you guys think of two small squads, each half-loaded with special close combat weapons (i.e. say 2-3 of them have claws/fists/whatever and the other 2-3 are naked), using them as a form of support/spearhead? Both collectively don't cost *too much* but begs the question, "do I REALLY need two squads?".

 

My issue with overloaded 5-man squads (be it vanguard, or honor guard, or anything really) is that when each marine costs like 40-65 points with no "ablative wounds", there are too many risks involved in my opinion.

[Kunanaki]

Bumping this thread back up after 10 days as a thought came across my mind last night.

 

What if instead of just one unit loaded to the teeth but treated as a suicide squad, what do you guys think of two small squads, each half-loaded with special close combat weapons (i.e. say 2-3 of them have claws/fists/whatever and the other 2-3 are naked), using them as a form of support/spearhead? Both collectively don't cost *too much* but begs the question, "do I REALLY need two squads?".

 

My issue with overloaded 5-man squads (be it vanguard, or honor guard, or anything really) is that when each marine costs like 40-65 points with no "ablative wounds", there are too many risks involved in my opinion.

 

Hence why I NEVER take power fists in 5 man squads.

 

Oh you have a fist? -sounds of ripping, tearing, and gnashing are heard, body parts flying and flopping about-

 

Now you don't!

 

Where as Intiative striking weapons such as Power Weapons and Lightning Claws will ensure that, even if the small unit dies, it has a fair chance at killing something in return.

 

As for small units of VV's, Yes and no.

 

Personally I use FA slots for Land Speeders, so you're essentially filling 2 slots of a fairly underused (Not counting the new Baal Preds) section with close combat bite sized death, which will probably either

 

A. Snipe a none CC unit out of existence.

 

B. Bite off more then they can chew.

 

With VV's, you want ablative wounds so you can take advantage of the wound allocation system. And you also want to guarentee that whatever you hit, you hit hard enough. 1 PF for 10 Marines is a good balance, 1 PF in 5 marines....is a dead PF.

 

So, Rule of Thumb (in my opinion). If you're going with a unit designed for close combat, and they aren't extremely well armoured with a built in armour save and invuln, you should take 10 of them (or close to it, 9 man DC w/ Chappy comes to mind).

 

Space Marine Holy Numbers are 5 and 10, 5 because it's our minimum, and 10 because it's combat squad heaven, or ablative wound time.

 

Winning combat is about combat multipliers. VV's are a nice utility unit, but small bite sized squads are just begging to be gobbled up.

[Joasht]

10 man's run a higher risk of mishaps when deepstriking, thats my primary concern. No point maximizing your ablative wounds if the whole squad dies before hitting the table.

 

I personally see little to no reason to take the Vanguard without making use of Heroic Intervention, simply because you've paid for it; otherwise there is very little that can justify the massive point difference between a RAS marine and a Vanguard Marine.

[calgaryBA]

That's exactly right. Five man squads are too small to allocate wounds and their survivability is too low to take on some things.

 

Fists and hammers in small squads are only good if you have storm shields to make sure they survive long enough to dish out the hard hits.

 

IMO, spend the points on a decked group of 6-7.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think one squad is enough. You can tool them out or keep it basic, either way has it's advantages. I prefer to tool mine but it's not necessary.

 

0b :P

[Redo]

I find that the VV are very different from the old VAS and it has taken me a while to restructure this unit. Like many a smaller unit is better, one that does not have a ton of points invested. I tend to find 5-6 is enough. I tend to go with one fist or hammer and a lightning claw with a storm shield or two tossed in.

Anymore than that and the unit becomes very expensive and it is a unit that may spectacularly fail. I also find that I have to wise with choosing their targets. They cannot go head to head with big or tough units and will wilt under fire. Best that they make combat and defeat the unit in the enemy's turn so that they are free to charge again.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you do invest in stormshields and run 6-8 Vanguard veterans I find they do much better. You don't need to kit each veteran with a stormshield, around 4-5 works for me. The stormshields obviously can soak up anything thrown at them so they can weather a few turns of shooting. They are most vulnerable to lots of small arms fire so if you can position a Priest close by I find they'll last even longer. I also like to equip one veteran with an infernus pistol for insurance, you're not going to use it everytime but it can come in quite handy when you need it. I like to arm the sergeant with a thunderhammer and stormshield and give everyone meltabombs. If you can immobilize a tank with the bombs then the hammer automatically hits since it swings last, even if the hammer doesn't destroy the tank as long as you at least land one glancing blow then the tank is stunned the next turn and that can be very helpful as if you position your squad correctly then you have a nice bunker to hide behind. It's awesome when a pieplate scatters over the stunned enemy tank and destroys it. It happens sometimes too!

 

0b :)

[Redfinger]

I run a all jump army, I have two VV, they are armed with 4 shields, 1 glaive and 1 power fist. I found them very capable at handling squads larger then them, and other such creatures that only a pf can harm. I have found in an all jump list it seems a little easier to pick and choose targets, so I use my VV to tie up targets of opportunity while my other jumpers get into position.

 

The type of VV you run depends completely on the list you are running.

 

Ashton

[Redo]

I run a all jump army, I have two VV, they are armed with 4 shields, 1 glaive and 1 power fist. I found them very capable at handling squads larger then them, and other such creatures that only a pf can harm. I have found in an all jump list it seems a little easier to pick and choose targets, so I use my VV to tie up targets of opportunity while my other jumpers get into position.

 

The type of VV you run depends completely on the list you are running.

 

Ashton

 

I tend to think that it does not matter how many shields you give a VV unit; If the unit is caught in the open or attacks/attacked by a large enough unit that they will fall to weight of fire, attacks. To a lesser extent it will also happen with units like Terminators too. But as you pointed out the JPs do help. One has to wise to pick the appropriate units and hope that they are not wiped out in the first round of combat.

[Joasht]

"Weight of fire" is the weakness of any Space Marine in any armor, and the reason why tons of Orks, Nids etc are still very scary. But as mentioned earlier its a good idea to have a Priest standing nearby, the only thing is if you are Deepstriking the VV you'd have to be pretty good with the positioning of the priest to catch the VV in the FNP bubble the moment they land without exposing the Priest to too much firepower, assuming he was on the board already.

 

Just a quick question, thats not really off topic but not really on topic either (hey, its my thread :P). How have you guys found Deepstriking, be it for VV or others? I've always hated DS'ing without Pods, and never cared much for doing it in the past. Descent of Angels makes it somewhat 50% less risky, but I still have my reservations (pun intended :)).

[bulley]

I run 1 power weap, 1 fist, 1 hammer and 1 shield, and one "standard". I am thinking about dropping the fist in favour of a shield, and maybe adding a better pistol into the fold. They have been effective when used and find as long as I pick my target right I am ok. But HI makes them essential in an all JP army - having one unit being able to tie up a deep strike zone is vital.

[Volchek]

Just a quick question, thats not really off topic but not really on topic either (hey, its my thread ). How have you guys found Deepstriking, be it for VV or others? I've always hated DS'ing without Pods, and never cared much for doing it in the past. Descent of Angels makes it somewhat 50% less risky, but I still have my reservations (pun intended :lol:).

 

DSing with Blood Angels is awesome, especially with Van Vets. That's the entire reason to take Van Vets: DS and HI

 

With rerolling reserves and DS scatter of only a D6, it really makes no sense to not use DS in a BA army.

 

I typically keep at least 1 RAS in reserve as well as my Van Vets, and I take Van Vets in every list I field.

[glider0880]

Awsome!

Killed 65 orks with em yesterday. Kinda useful considering it was obj. and that was all his troops!

Oh and did I mention I didnt lose a man?

 

8 men

4 Storm sheilds

6 PW

1 Infernus pistol

=

Hell!

[calgaryBA]

Just a quick question, thats not really off topic but not really on topic either (hey, its my thread :P). How have you guys found Deepstriking, be it for VV or others? I've always hated DS'ing without Pods, and never cared much for doing it in the past. Descent of Angels makes it somewhat 50% less risky, but I still have my reservations (pun intended :tu:).

 

 

I very rarely DS units other than VV or Dante and whatever squad he's with. When I DS anything else, it's in a friendly game where I'm just trying things out.

 

The chances of a DS mishap for a smaller sized squad of VV is very small, but even then I've been lucky, and they haven't botched a single one yet.