Small squads of sternguard

[Br.Pat]

I have only ever used sternguard once, and that was in a small practice game. It was a while ago and they performed fairly well, but I played them as a long range threat rather than a short range one which is where I think they perform better.

 

I'm designing a mostly short range assault based list, and I was thinking of including a small unit of sternguard (5 or 6) in a razorback. First of all would this be effective in any way, and secondly for what? And thirdly (I know this depends more on what's in your list than anything else but) how would you arm the razorback?

[Shard]

I use a 6 man sternguard squad with razorback in my 1500 list. They do some pretty good killin' but I always play with supporting squads. Equipped with some combis they can cause problems with several kinds of opponents. I've used them to hose down ork squads, marines, terminators, etc.

 

As for the razorback, tl-heavy bolter is the cheapest, but I found it to be rather lacking. The lascannon/tl-plasma gun turret served me well in anti-heavy infantry duties and since it's two different weapon systems it adds a degree of cushion to the fire it takes.

[Br.Pat]

Yeah but I want to keep the transport as little a fire magnet as possible

[DarkGuard]

I used to play a small 5 man squad in a Razorback with two heavy flamers and a power fist, accompanied by Vulkan. Was a very effective unit, able to kill a large amount of infantry models easily while also being decent in combat.

 

However, despite that they were fragile, and that's one of the things about small squads of Sternguard, and of nearly any Marine unit. They are very fragile and if you plan to use them you need to be clever with them and not leave them unsupported, otherwise they'll just be a sitting duck.

 

For this reason I prefer larger units now, which are more able to put a large amount of hurt on other units.

[Shard]

Yeah but I want to keep the transport as little a fire magnet as possible

 

A Razorback being a fire magnet highly depends on what other vehicles you have in your army. If it's all Rhinos, then the Razorback will probably be a target no matter what weapon config you have.

 

Have you considered just bringing a Rhino? Have two Sternguard just shoot out the top until the time is right to disembark?

[Xeonic]

The TLHB is a little lacking, it's not meant to be uber killy, but consider this: It's only 5 pts more than a rhino to swap 2 S4 shots for 3 TL S5 shots. Pretty much anything beyond that is literally paying another rhino's worth of points for a weapon upgrade. TLHB razors are the only kind I personally will field singly, and at that I assume it will be targeted and cover it appropriately, so it's as much a firepower sink as possible.

 

As for a 5 man unit of sternguard, I've often considered taking one just to have some nice plasma cannon in the backfield, in a rhino so they can move around in dow deployment. I've never tried it though it should significantly outperform 5 man units of devastators for nearly the same cost.

[Br.Pat]

It should be noted that in terms of vehicles/transports my list has

 

a LRC with AT squad

a Vindicator

Tactical in a Rhino

Tactical in a RB

 

and also possibly this Sternguard squad I'm talking about

[Ryjak]

Your viable options for arming a Razorback are:

 

Heavy Bolter

Heavy Flamer

Assault Cannon

 

The heavy bolter because it's cheap, while the other two need to be close in order to be effective, just like the Sternguard. While a Lascannon/plasmagun loadout feels approapriate, any Razorback with a Lascannon should be sitting in your deployment zone blasting away. Great when paired up with a Devistern Squad (that's Sternguard with two Heavy weapons)

[garreth]

On my taste 5 Sternguards are too expensive to be 'expendables'. It's on average 150 points for 5 marines - easy killpoint.

Prefer to use larger squad, which can survive until help arrives.

[Br.Pat]

They aren't supposed to be used as 'expendables' but as small support units with quite a lot of bite.

[Shard]

Your viable options for arming a Razorback are:

 

Heavy Bolter

Heavy Flamer

Assault Cannon

 

The heavy bolter because it's cheap, while the other two need to be close in order to be effective, just like the Sternguard. While a Lascannon/plasmagun loadout feels approapriate, any Razorback with a Lascannon should be sitting in your deployment zone blasting away. Great when paired up with a Devistern Squad (that's Sternguard with two Heavy weapons)

 

The plasma guns are the same range as the above list, the single lascannon is gravy. To sit in a deployment zone, the only agreeable option would be tl-lc.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Sternguard are one of the few SM marine units effective in small numbers. If you give them all comb-meltas and meltaguns, you get a unit that can slaughter both infantry and tanks at close range. For the rhino/razorback question, I would go with the HB or the assault cannon, that way they aren't a massive target, but can still do something. This works quite well in a rhinoback army where you have different weapons that complement each other, such as the HB bolter or Assault cannon paired with the TL LC or two las/plas "guarding" your rhinos.

[Br.Pat]

How much of a fire magent would they be though?

 

I also have a LRC with AT squad and a Vindicator... so I think they should be thirds on the list after those... but I guess it's all relative.

 

What do you think?

[garreth]

5 sternguards, say with all-melta, have a chance to pop a LR or other Transport. Then enemy will kill them or reduce to 1-2 model with ease.

They effective in small numbers only in suicide missions. And against infantry all-melta 5 sterns are not effective at all. 5 melta shots, to-hit, to-wound, and you have 3 MEQ casualties at best (and with cover - 1.5). They are not CSM terminators to work like these IMHO.

[Br.Pat]

Why on earth would you use the meltas to shoot infantry when you can use the special ammo? We're talking about combi-meltas here..

 

10-12 rapid fire shots either AP2, or ignore over, or wound on a 2+ is a completely different story.

[garreth]

It's all the same:

5 men sterns. 10 Shots with AP3 rounds. 3+ to-hit, 4+ to wound = 3 MEQ casualty (1.5 with cover), like above.

5 men sterns. 10 Shots with 2+ to-wound rounds. 3+ to-hit, 2+ to wound, 3+ AS = 2 MEQ casualty.

 

5-men squad can't critically hurt almost no one solid infantry squad (I don't take into account combat squads), maybe except flamer-oriented build against Orks etc.

[Br.Pat]

You also have to take into account the arnament on the RB, which is pretty much the point of taking the RB in the first place. Plus you're taking into consideration that everything you shoot at will be in cover. The whole point of using sternguard is to use their deadly shooting to maximum effect. What's the point of plopping out infront of a squad of tac marines in cover and trying to kill them? The unit will function as a support unit to either a) soften up targets that the other elements of your army will be assaulting :rolleyes: function in a niche roll ex: to kill elite units in vulnerables positions either with special issue ammunition or the meltas.

 

This unit is fast, versatile and hits rather hard.

[tahrikmili]

5 man Sternguard with 2 Plasmaguns and 3 Combi-Plasmas is a completely different story against MEQ and TEQ though. Very effective.

[Br.Pat]

But giving them 4 combi-meltas and a combi-flamer make them more versatile. You can still use the AP3 shots to take down heavily armoured foes.

[garreth]

1) If you want to kill something by sternguard, usually you ride > 6". Then your Razorback can't shoot. I came to point, that with Sterns better to use plain Rhino with dozerblades.

 

2) Main thought: there is no need to use dedicated CC unit to kill 5 marines =) Your opponent need not so much shooting/CC to neutralize your Sterns.

 

3) Yes plasma is very good. I myself now use such a builds

- 6 men, 2 plasma, 4 combiplasma - dedicated monster/IC killer unit.

- 8 men 2 melta, 4 combiplasma, combiflamer, powerfist - all-round unit.

Plain sternguards can't do anything to 2+ infantry with standard ammo. And combiplasma IMHO is very good choise to complete their anty-infantry abilities.

[Br.Pat]

But if you ride >6" you can't get out of the transport anyway.

 

I understand what you're getting at but you seem to be missing the point... you think that this unit is going to be used as some sort of spearhead. If you use it in a "fire" army, your opponent will not only have the sternhuard coming at him, but other much more nasty units aswell. Think Land Raiders Assault Terminators and Vindicators, not to mention quite possibly a tac squad or two. With such large target saturation it would be difficult to choose.

[JamesI]

But if you ride >6" you can't get out of the transport anyway.

 

I understand what you're getting at but you seem to be missing the point... you think that this unit is going to be used as some sort of spearhead. If you use it in a "fire" army, your opponent will not only have the sternhuard coming at him, but other much more nasty units aswell. Think Land Raiders Assault Terminators and Vindicators, not to mention quite possibly a tac squad or two. With such large target saturation it would be difficult to choose.

You can get out of a transport that moved 12 or less.

[garreth]

First of all, you can disembark from transport after moving 12". Yo can't shoot out of top hatch after moving > 6" - it's true ;-)

 

I got your point =) I just try to share my personal expirience of fielding sternguards =) Maybe your playstyle is different and you will be happy with small units =)

[JamesI]

I used a 6 man squad in a razorback, but I found they spent so much of the game in the razorback moving into position, they weren't worth it.

[garreth]

Strange. Usually I can fire in one turn: 12" Rhino move, 2" disembark, 12" - rapidfiring range.