Blood Angels vs Witchhunters

[Kunanaki]

Hi Yall, I was recently challenged by a Sisters Player. Supposedly, he's undefeated in the gaming store that I frequent. An impressive feat, but I hope to crack it before I deploy.

 

Here's what I run in an 1850 List.

 

HQ-

Mephiston = 250

Librarian = 100 w/ Shield + Sanq Sword

 

Elites-

Dreadnought w/ BC + HF = 135

+ Drop = 35

Sang Priest = 50

 

Troops-

10 man AS w/ 2 MG + PF = 245

5 man AS w/ LC = 115

+ Razorback w/ AC = 55

= 170 x 4

 

Fast Attack-

LSS w/ HF x 2 = 60

LSS w/ MM + HF = 70

LSS w/ MM + HF = 70

 

Heavy-

Vindicator w/ SS = 155

 

And He usually runs something along the lines of one of those missile tanks, an immolater or two, 4-6 of his rhino things, and a lot of sisters. I hear usually he has, in an 1850 list, 12-17 faith points.

 

That's about all I've gathered on the guy from other Players, and really, what I'm looking for here is somebody who has experience either playing as the Sisters, or against them, and things I should look out for and the like. Also, what do Faith Points do?

 

Please Help?

[GlauG]

Basically my other half exclusively played Sisters, where they excel is close range firefights, where they're weakest is assault... you'd think BA would be a good match for them if you got the drop on them. Be wary of large units, and units consisting of 2 characters; they're probably designed to work with a specific Faith power so that they will almost always pass. For example I think the one that gives you an invun equal to your regular save is rolling OVER the number of models on 2D6, so a pair of Canonesses will always pass (snake eyes are not stated to fail in the description).

[WarpWalker]

I played against witch hunters years ago and the one piece of advice i can tell you (if it's still relivent)(they can mix with other armies. Space marines and daemon hunters) don't drop near a squad with a mystic or two. They will get a free shot on you. With heavy weapons most likely. It was 3 or 4 years ago. But i'll never forget deep striking near one and getting eaten alive with plasma and melta death. He had about 12 hinchmen in that retinue. Also assassins can be very nasty.

[Ozybonza]

MOAR PREESTZ!!!11!ONE!!!

 

Seriously though, sisters are all about high volume small arms fire up close - so FNP is essential for BA, so try and fit in another SP.

[Arkaniss]

Shamefully i've only managed to get one game in with the new Blood Angel codex, so i'll instead concentrate on trying to help you out with information about Witch Hunters.

 

The missile tank as you put it is an Exorcist - though i find it unusual that he only fields one as they work better in pairs. Anyway, it should be a high priority target of yours as it'll tear your Land Speeders apart for example - it fires D6 missiles which should easily penetrate AV10 so you need to be wary of that. It struggles with AV14, but it shouldn't have too much trouble against your Dreadnought and probably your Vindicator too, as it can fire large quantities of missiles with decent rolling.

 

The most potent SoB build is mech (as with most things i suppose) and it certainly looks like your opponent knows what they are doing with this list. So while yes, the earlier point of Sisters being rubbish in CC is entirely valid - first you need to get them out of those metal boxes. Your MM Speeders should handily crack them open, but remember the Exorcist will take them out no problem.

 

A small thing worth noting is that Sisters have a 5+ save against Psychic powers. Should only be a minor inconvenience for you however.

 

As for Acts of Faith they come in several forms - the two most popular are Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr; here's a quick explanation of them

 

Divine Guidance: either players assault phase or the Sisters player shooting phase - this is done after rolling to hit but naturally before rolling to wound

Requires a roll of equal to or UNDER the current number of models in the squad - it'll make any rolls of 6 to wound from shooting count as AP1, and in assault to count as a power weapon

 

Spirit of the Martyr: either players Assault phase, or your shooting phase - rolled at the BEGINNING of the phase

Requires a roll of equal or OVER the current number of models in the squad - the unit now has an Invulnerable save equal to it's ordinary save

 

You'll find Acts of Faith to be infuriating no doubt as a savvy Sisters player knows when and where to use them best, not to mention whenever you kill a Faithful unit/character the Sisters player gets the Faith point(s) back from Martyrdom. Note than said Faithful units that fall back off the table do not give their Faith points back.

 

A SoB army relies mostly on the rank and file Sister - they'll be equipped with Melta and Flamer weaponary so they'll want to get up close and personal to get maximum effect from their fire power They may only be WS3 and T3 but they still have Power Armour and BS4 - so consider them equals of Space Marines when they jump out of a rhino to shoot things.

 

Oh - almost forgot to talk about the Immolator. I don't know what it's equipped with but i'd wager it's twin-linked Heavy Flamers. In which case it'll be mobile and still deadly - consider it a Fast tank in regards to shooting. It has a special rule that allows it to move 12" and still fire the Heavy Flamer. It re-rolls to Wound rolls and armour penetration rolls by the way.

 

I think that'll do with what information i have from your post - good luck with the game! Don't be afraid to ask to look at your opponents codex too - Witch Hunters are an old army with lots of strange and colourful abilities that are little known about. By reading the codex yourself you should understand what's going on better. Especially in regard to Acts of Faith - and most importantly when they are done and what result they need on the dice.

[River Black]

Also dont underestimate their primary HQ; the Canoness. She when combined with the faith she can become a real pain in the butt in cc. In most cases she will have a jump pack for mobility, a blessed weapon (+2 str and master crafted power weapon) and have a cloak of St Aspira (2+ Save). In any given CC round she can give her self another +2 Str (but int 1) for a total +7. She can gain 2+ Int which mean she will hit your BA first. She can turn her 2+ into a 2++. or she can do a combination of the above. The result is a character that is going to stick around in an assault and still have ability to dish out the damage. I have, on several occasions, used a canoness to hold back an Avatar or Wraith lord. And once just once she even stalled a 6 man DC with Reclusiarch loaded with PW attacks for three turns all by her self. Oh and she only costs 115 pts.

[Cpt. Blood Donator]

But under the new rules, isn't it impossible to get the additional +2 str for the cannoness?

 

I mean, if you use the weapons paramters, then you can't get additional +2, as it is added to the base value, suggesting you

must use your fists instead.

 

Like B.A with powerfists and whatevers don't get +1 str from furious charge.

[GlauG]

Also dont underestimate their primary HQ; the Canoness. She when combined with the faith she can become a real pain in the butt in cc. In most cases she will have a jump pack for mobility, a blessed weapon (+2 str and master crafted power weapon) and have a cloak of St Aspira (2+ Save). In any given CC round she can give her self another +2 Str (but int 1) for a total +7. She can gain 2+ Int which mean she will hit your BA first. She can turn her 2+ into a 2++. or she can do a combination of the above. The result is a character that is going to stick around in an assault and still have ability to dish out the damage. I have, on several occasions, used a canoness to hold back an Avatar or Wraith lord. And once just once she even stalled a 6 man DC with Reclusiarch loaded with PW attacks for three turns all by her self. Oh and she only costs 115 pts.

 

 

A combination of two of these (one with an Eviscerator instead of the Blessed Blade) is a staple of my GF's Sisters army, and with the correct use of Faith, can tarpit high-end combat monster units, or even kill them outright. They've taken down most of the higher-end C:SM special characters, IIRC they once got Abaddon too, but she's never played Blood Angels so I have no horror stories there. :huh: That's exactly what I was talking about when I said watch out for 2 Canonesses! On the other hand, a single Canoness casts faith on LEADERSHIP checks, making any AoF almost surefire for her when she needs it.

[Brother Nathan]

my suggestion is to read through their codex which is free to download on the gw website, and to kill the excercists... also watch the hq squad. it can have a cannones with eviscivator, priest with eviscivator, and then the sargent of the squad with eviscivator, and i dont think any of them count as an independant character so will take time to kill and will chew through pretymuch any squad especially when combined with faith points.

[Arkaniss]

There is also the Litanies of Faith wargear available from the armoury that gives an Act of Faith to the character using it (the Canoness in this case) for free - it doesn't need a Test of Faith nor does it use up a Faith Point. Comes in quite handy if you really need that Act of Faith to succeed.

 

Also i think i forgot to mention a Test of Faith uses a Faith Point regardless of if it is successful or not.

[River Black]

Yes it is important to know when some one can use a specific act of faith and what they need to roll for that act. Also remeber that if you kill off the Venteran Sister they can that squad can no longer use faith. Also remeber that the acts last for the PHASE not the turn.

[Kunanaki]

So here's the impression I'm getting from the sisters so far from the Advice being shared.

 

1. Psychic powers. They don't have a psychic hood per say, but anything that Targets them they can try and counter, but anything that targets myself, aka Unleash Rage, Sanguinary Sword, etc. Is perfectly alright.

 

2. Shooting. The phase I really should be watching out for, as they are space marine distance and power in shooting. Basically, forget I'm playing Imp Guard, and maneuver around them as if I was playing another Space Marine Army. Also, they can make Feel No Pain useless on 6+ if they get the AP1 power off, including for their flamers? How does Faith Points work with Immolators?

 

3. Assault. After reading the codex, I realize that they have a fairly good assault, what with a unit that can always hit on 3+, and the option of making all of their attacks Power Weapons on a 6+. That and the Initiative boosts. Mephiston, will he be eaten, or will he consume? A question I Can't answer.

 

4. Faith Points, he has a limited supply that replenishes as I kill him, however....how many Tests of Faith can he make on a single unit in a turn? Is that limited? Also, besides from powers that specifically state it, how many can he use in a phase on a single unit? Can he keep trying until it goes off?

 

All in all I appreciate the advice that's coming in, and please continue to provide tactics and advice. Like I said, I can only give a rough estimate of his army, but I know he usually fields mech heavy. What I didn't realize is that his range is fairly limited, with Melta and Flamers, which gives me a bit of an edge on controlling when to engage with my vehicles.

 

What are some of the high threat models? I'm reading the codex, but I must confess with a lack of actually playing the game, I've not a bloody clue what I should be watching out for / eliminating asap, besides the Missile Tank as Arkaniss has politely pointed out.

[GlauG]

There aren't any especially "high threat" things that haven't been mentioned; one of the nastiest things about Sisters are, well, massed Sisters. Especially in an objective-based game where they can make you come to them, 20 regular Battle Sisters using the right Faith at the right times will kill a surprisingly large amount of anything else. If nothing else, that's 40 rapid-fired bolter shots, which can become sorta-Rending. You're actually better off with 250pts worth of tooled-up Assault Marines than Mephy, possibly; they have more wounds and a Storm Shield for an Invun save if needed, and put out a lot more attacks if they get to charge. Given that sisters are T3 and one wound, 30-ish S4 attacks are a lot better than 6 S6/S10 ones. I'd actually suggest Dante so you can reliably DS meltas right up the aft of his tanks.

[Kurb]

Dunno if they can still take allies a Vindicare Assassin could cause headaches picking out your priests.

[lorider2]

There aren't any especially "high threat" things that haven't been mentioned; one of the nastiest things about Sisters are, well, massed Sisters. Especially in an objective-based game where they can make you come to them, 20 regular Battle Sisters using the right Faith at the right times will kill a surprisingly large amount of anything else. If nothing else, that's 40 rapid-fired bolter shots, which can become sorta-Rending. You're actually better off with 250pts worth of tooled-up Assault Marines than Mephy, possibly; they have more wounds and a Storm Shield for an Invun save if needed, and put out a lot more attacks if they get to charge. Given that sisters are T3 and one wound, 30-ish S4 attacks are a lot better than 6 S6/S10 ones. I'd actually suggest Dante so you can reliably DS meltas right up the aft of his tanks.

 

I agree. One of the main aspects of sisters is the ability to take away your armor, while keeping theirs through faith. A few things to remember is I think none of their annoying ability affect vehicles so crush them first. Then try and get into combat with a lot of guys. Death company and a baal might be better than Meph and a vindi. Sisters can be surprisingly good, mainly because the exorcists and cannonness are more than worth their points. Dante or sternguard in a pod seems a good idea to me.

[River Black]

How does Faith Points work with Immolators?

It doesn’t. You cant use acts of faith on a vehicle.

 

Mephiston, will he be eaten, or will he consume?

I would advise AGAINST taking Meph. Depending on how he takes the girls Meph might be crushed under the sheer amount of lead being thrown at him. One of my favorite squads to take is a full 20 girl squad with a VSS, 2 meltas, and a book for 259 points. That’s 2 melta and 36 bolter rounds coming at you and with no Invul save he will take a lot of damage

 

How many Tests of Faith can he make on a single unit in a turn? Is that limited? Also, besides from powers that specifically state it, how many can he use in a phase on a single unit? Can he keep trying until it goes off?

A unit can use as many acts of faith it wants during a single phase however it can only attempt an act once. If he fails the test the he cannot retry and the faith point is lost. The unit can then reuse all acts of during a following phase.

[Kunanaki]

So I've taken things into consideration, and I think I've switched things around a bit so that I'm far more aggressively killy then I was before. \

 

In my Experience, the Talon Furioso Dread that drops in never makes the points back. Maybe it's poor luck, maybe it's my placement, but I've only had 1 game out of 7 where he got into melee. Most of the time, I use him as a Distraction, sort of a Look at me! I'm close to your lines and Extremely Deadly!

 

What I've dropped =

 

1 Land Speeder with 2 HF

1 Assault Squad with LC + AC Razorback

1 Furiso Dreadnought w/ 2 Blood Talons + Heavy Flamer with a Drop Pod

 

What I've added =

 

1 Chaplain with Infernus Pistol

1 9 man Death Company with 1 PF, 2 PW, and 1 Infernus Pistol with a Drop Pod

 

My Mentality.

 

I've lost no capibility of tank popping, as my Death Company can still pop in and threaten, however what I've gained is a high threat feel no pain gaggle that's entire purpose is to draw fire from a flank or the middle of their lines, because if they don't, they are going to potentially eat units alive.

 

What I've lost is 3 heavy Flamers and 1 Scoring Unit.

 

I think it's a fair trade, just because the unit of death company itself is so damn strong in that configuration, no matter what they hit they are going to do something, and even if they just draw fire that allows my other units time to close in and threaten.

[GlauG]

Actually, now I think about it, one of the better things you could take against Sisters is a Stormraven... Most of their anti-tank besides the Exorcists is melta guns rather than multi-meltas. I think my usual 2-Stormraven list would be pretty nasty against Sisters, have it/them in reserve and then bring them in 24" on the turn they arrive, taking a shot at (hopefully) the side of the Exorcists with TL Lascannons, or 2 Krak Missiles, or TL MMs, or TL AssCans. Have a DC or Furioso Dread with talons and/or Mephiston and Death Company inside, if it gets popped by the anti-tank the Dread will almost certainly survive, and there shouldn't be enough anti-tank to kill both a Dread and/or Mephy outright. In fact, rather than Blood Talons I'd almost be tempted to take a Furioso Librarian with Wings, plus Mephiston. That means that they can assault effectively 42" (24" Raven move, 12" Wings, 6" charge, plus Mephy is Fleet) into the enemy side of the board unless you fail the roll for Wings, and Sisters, while sometimes surprisingly scary, aren't that bad in Assault even with Faith. The Dread is basically totally safe, while Mephy is relatively unlikely to be hurt by S3 attacks, even Power Weapon ones. Am I on to something here?