what kills monoliths

[greatcrusade08]

i keep getting confused on this one.

 

what keeps its 'bonus' againt this thing..

meltabombs have 2D6 pen as do monstrous creatures..as its not listed as an 'extra' D6 like the melta weapons do they keep it?

[Marshal Wilhelm]

C:N pg 21

 

"....Attacks which count the target's AV as being less than it really is [such as lances & blasters] do not do so against the Mono. Similarly, weapons that get additional AP dice [such as CF, Monstrous creatures or melta weapons] do not get the extra dice against the Mono. Ordnance stil rolls 2d6 and picks the highest one"

 

given that the quote uses the words such as [and not exclusive], I think you might get a few sad-face reactions.

 

Note than on C:SM pg 64, it says of the Chainfist "treated exactly as a PF, but rolls 2d6 for its AP value".

I think that your Necron foe would be surprised if you said "CF don't get an extra d6 any more, they just roll 2d6 these days, enjoy my AV 15 average :) "

 

Do you see what I am saying?

 

Damage rolls are fine, so AP 1 stuff gets +1 as per normal.

[LPetersson]

i keep getting confused on this one.

 

what keeps its 'bonus' againt this thing..

meltabombs have 2D6 pen as do monstrous creatures..as its not listed as an 'extra' D6 like the melta weapons do they keep it?

 

This is something that has been discussed at great length in the past. It basically comes down to wording.

The Necron Codex says: weapons that get additional armour penetration dice ...do not get the extra dice against the monolith.

 

So, What is the strength of a melta bomb? I believe that it is S8 + 2d6. Does it at any point get more or less than this? No, so therefore Melta bombs are S8 + 2d6 against monoliths.

If the necron player complains, ask him to point out where/when the melta bomb get additional dice...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

So, What is the strength of a melta bomb? I believe that it is S8 + 2d6. Does it at any point get more or less than this? No, so therefore Melta bombs are S8 + 2d6 against monoliths.

If the necron player complains, ask him to point out where/when the melta bomb get additional dice...

 

I think that is quite mean, as per my previous post.

 

Chainfists do not get additional dice ~ I even showed that with my quote from C:SM.

 

Would you then tell Mr Necron that "oops, too bad buddy, CF used to get an extra dice but now they get 2d6, so suck it up. Yeah I know that they are mentioned, but they don't work that way [the naughty way I am arguing for] anymore. Hahahaaha!"?

 

By RAW, CF do get 2d6, not d6+d6 and therefore must get both dice against Living Metal.

Are you arguing for that?

 

If not, why are you arguing for the MBs?

They both use 2d6, even though the CF used to [i am assuming] roll an "extra dice"

 

What do you think?

[SeattleDV8]

Strangely enough grenades do not have an S + D6 (or 2D6 in the Melta bomb).

BRB pg. 63 "Against vehicles, grenades have the following armour penetration:"

Notice that strength is never mentioned.

Also Melta bombs do not have the 'melta' rule, so no +1 damage table roll and also the 'extra' die of damage.

Confusing the matter is the Vindicare assasins' Turbo-Penetrator round which does cause 3d6 against even a Monolith.

There are good points to both sides of this debate, myself I never take the 'extra ' D6.

Then again I rarely assault Monoliths.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Strangely enough grenades do not have an S + D6 (or 2D6 in the Melta bomb).

BRB pg. 63 "Against vehicles, grenades have the following armour penetration:"

Notice that strength is never mentioned.

Also Melta bombs do not have the 'melta' rule, so no +1 damage table roll and also the 'extra' die of damage.

Confusing the matter is the Vindicare assasins' Turbo-Penetrator round which does cause 3d6 against even a Monolith.

There are good points to both sides of this debate, myself I never take the 'extra ' D6.

Then again I rarely assault Monoliths.

There is an argument for meltabombs not having strength at all (and therefore working), though its fairly week. And its major suport, the case of the vindicares turbo penetrator and tyranid bioacid spore mines, are both currently invalidated, as the current which/deamon-hunter FAQ's no longer say that the turbo-penetrator round works on monoliths and tyranids no longer have acid spore mines.

 

And to be honest, necrons are fairly underpower as an army, you might as well let them have what little advantages they can lever

[Chengar Qordath]

I have agree with frosty; Strength + d6 is normal; anything beyond the first d6 is extra, and meltabombs do not an extra d6.

 

Besides, as most people with experience vs. Necrons will tell you, trying to kill the monolith is usually a bad idea anyway.

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

Good Point. Phase out kills monoliths, its too easy to kill necron warriors, why not just phase them out?!

[AyanamiKun]

I once killed a Monolith, but only because my Razorback with Lascannon did not have any other target that turn. It shot, hit and the Monolith exploded. Usually I try to ignore it and attack other things :D

[LPetersson]

What do you think?

 

I think that CFs get Sx2+1D6 against non-vehicles and the Sx2+2D6 against vehicles constitutes an extra dice regardless of wording.

 

Melta bombs only ever get S8+2D6, so there's no extra dice involved since at no point does it have S8+1D6 against anything...

[BlackSpike]

I have agree with frosty; Strength + d6 is normal; anything beyond the first d6 is extra, and meltabombs do not an extra d6.

 

Besides, as most people with experience vs. Necrons will tell you, trying to kill the monolith is usually a bad idea anyway.

 

This is how I see it:

Normal penetration rolls are on 1d6. Anything that is using more than 1d6 (MCs, melta-anything, Chain Fists etc) are using extra dice, above and beyond normal.

These extra dice are not used vs monoliths.

I'm not sure how people say 2d6 is not classed as additional dice on top of the normal Penetration 1d6.

 

It doesn't help that GW Rules are badly written and do not gel very happily :lol:

But using more than 1d6 is using additional, or extra, dice.

[Hellios]

What do you think?

 

I think that CFs get Sx2+1D6 against non-vehicles and the Sx2+2D6 against vehicles constitutes an extra dice regardless of wording.

 

Melta bombs only ever get S8+2D6, so there's no extra dice involved since at no point does it have S8+1D6 against anything...

 

But then again... what if a unit like Tyranid War vets existed (again... I know they don't now) and allowed you to attack MCs with grenades (lets argue MBs) would this invalidate your arguement... Or we could say that a attack made against a target with an AV rolls 1d6 and adds its strength to determine if it pens or not and so that any attack that does anything else is adding something additional who cares if you have two single packs of sweets or one double pack either way you have more sweets than in one single pack.

 

Yay for crappy rules that are not 100% water tight!

 

I personally think that you can read the RAW in a number of ways and I'll say make a house rule where you play but I think the RAI (and this is how I read the RAW) is that when trying to pen a monolith you only ever get the weapons/attacks S+1d6 against an unmodified AV14... the only real exception to this was where mentioned in things like the vindicare assassin :lol:. The rule also has no effect where you get to role 2d6 and pick the highest (such as ordnance) and against SD weapons which will auto-pen you :)

[LPetersson]

What do you think?

 

I think that CFs get Sx2+1D6 against non-vehicles and the Sx2+2D6 against vehicles constitutes an extra dice regardless of wording.

 

Melta bombs only ever get S8+2D6, so there's no extra dice involved since at no point does it have S8+1D6 against anything...

 

But then again... what if a unit like Tyranid War vets existed (again... I know they don't now) and allowed you to attack MCs with grenades (lets argue MBs) would this invalidate your arguement...

 

If the MBs only got 1D6 against fleshy things, then yes, the 2D6 would be 1D6 + an extra dice, but as that isn't the case, the only strangth an MB has is S8+2D6...

[yodaid764]

What do you think?

 

I think that CFs get Sx2+1D6 against non-vehicles and the Sx2+2D6 against vehicles constitutes an extra dice regardless of wording.

 

Melta bombs only ever get S8+2D6, so there's no extra dice involved since at no point does it have S8+1D6 against anything...

 

 

What crack are you smoking?

Nowhere in the BRB nor in Codex:Space Marines does this rule exsist.

 

BRB says that Powerfists double a models strength, but they strike at Initiative 1.

Chainfists say they are treated like powerfists but roll 2D6 for AP.

Where are you getting the idea CFs get Sx2+1d6 vs non vehicles? Now, I think this would be awesome, but again, nowhere in the rule books/codex do I see anything even hinting at this.

And CF dont get Sx2+1d6+1D6 against vehicles. It simply flat out states rolls 2d6 AP. Just like melta bombs.

[Hellios]

What do you think?

 

I think that CFs get Sx2+1D6 against non-vehicles and the Sx2+2D6 against vehicles constitutes an extra dice regardless of wording.

 

Melta bombs only ever get S8+2D6, so there's no extra dice involved since at no point does it have S8+1D6 against anything...

 

 

What crack are you smoking?

Nowhere in the BRB nor in Codex:Space Marines does this rule exsist.

 

BRB says that Powerfists double a models strength, but they strike at Initiative 1.

Chainfists say they are treated like powerfists but roll 2D6 for AP.

Where are you getting the idea CFs get Sx2+1d6 vs non vehicles? Now, I think this would be awesome, but again, nowhere in the rule books/codex do I see anything even hinting at this.

And CF dont get Sx2+1d6+1D6 against vehicles. It simply flat out states rolls 2d6 AP. Just like melta bombs.

 

I do not think this area of discussion is helpful as the way a weapon is used to damage a vehicle uses a different game mechanic than the way it is used to damage something with a 'creature' statline...

 

Also to bring some maths in here would x+x not = 2x? I'm sorry maths isn't my big thing... and so 1d6+1d6 = 2d6? and if so S+1d6+1d6 is the same as S+2d6 the only reason it is written in a different manner is that melta-bombs and chainfists can never be used in a range where they don't gain the 'bonus' dice as they are always in 'melta range'. That normal pen rules require 1d6 to be rolled and so any attack that allows more than that to be rolled has some kind of bonus be it a +1 (tank hunters) or a +1d6 for melta... the fact that it is always on makes little difference B) but as I said I guess this is down to how you read things...

[greatcrusade08]

i guess the argument is that these are cc weapons oly, so you cant compare them to shooting a melta weapon at close range..

 

if these weapons (chainfists and meltabombs) dont have a 'bonus' D6 does living melta negate it or not.

going from the last few posts i get the feeling this is a true grey area.

[Hellios]

i guess the argument is that these are cc weapons oly, so you cant compare them to shooting a melta weapon at close range..

 

if these weapons (chainfists and meltabombs) dont have a 'bonus' D6 does living melta negate it or not.

going from the last few posts i get the feeling this is a true grey area.

 

I think this is a grey area depending on how you read 'bonus dice' and so on but I think the RAI is clear and that the GW FAQ points to RAI being S+1d6 only and with friends you should be able to work it out and in a tourny necs are pretty rare and while they might mess up someone who relies on melta a good player should be able to deal with it... or ask the TO first B)

[DAG42]

I guess it all comes down to that weapons NORMAL AP. S8+2xD6 is Normal for CF and MB, nothing other stated anywhere. MM +1D6 half range, MG +1D6 half range. I think there is a distinct difference here. Plus if you go by some replies here then an Ordnance weapon would lose it's 2D6 and pick the highest for AP.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

i guess the argument is that these are cc weapons oly, so you cant compare them to shooting a melta weapon at close range..

 

if these weapons (chainfists and meltabombs) dont have a 'bonus' D6 does living melta negate it or not.

going from the last few posts i get the feeling this is a true grey area.

 

Well technically the MB do not and the CF does not now use extra dice.

So technically by RAW you get to roll 2d6.

 

I think RAI is clear, and they wrote "such as" showing these mentioned things give you a gist of what they meant.

 

Necrons are a bad army. I would be happy to play RAI against them.

 

If you do your best and he does his, I believe that you should win most of the time. Even if he plays a perfect game, you'll still give it to him.

[Tanhausen]

Personally, I'd find it hard to keep a straight face claiming "Chain Fists are 2d6 nor 1d6+1d6".

 

Besides, I'd say that CF are simply Strengthx2 ... and yes, the 2d6 additional... that's why you see a "+" sign in the weapon stat.

 

Just like I find it hard to keep a straight face when someone says that my death wing apothecary can save obscured vehicles, since its "failed saves by a model". Hence, I don't do it.

[Hellios]

if you have 2d6 you are getting extra dice as the armour penetration rules read...

 

"Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a d6 and add the weapons strength to it, comparing this total with the Armour Value of the appropriate facing on the vehicle."

 

a d6... one so if you roll 2d6 you are rolling one more than normal aka extra...

 

If a village of people in India walk over hot coals before breakfast then that might be normal behaviour for them, however it is not standard behaviour for humans or even Indians on the whole.