Discussion on Nemesis

[Sgt.Sangha]

So after reading nemesis I have come to the conclusion that Horus sent Sedirae down in his stead knowing full well that he would be assissinated. does anyone agree or disagree on that logic? I will provide my full train of thought in two days for those who dont agree. (Im packing for med school and so i will be packing my laptop away as well.)

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i am not sure if he did so KNOWING he would be assasinated, but putting a decoy down first is just common sense. Horus is/was the Warmaster, and probably had working knowledge of the various institutions of the Imperium, and knew that his life was targeted.

 

If i was Horus, i wouldnt, on purpose, send down a soldier as valuable as Sedirae to be killed on purpose. I would send a decoy though, and probably draw lots from those loyal to me. (in Horus's case, the decoy probably thought it was a honor and would have willingly gone).

 

then again, on the flip side, Sedirae was a focal point for those who were disatisfied with the pace of the Heresy so maybe Horus saw this as a good opportunity to rid of a thorn.

 

WLK

[Jonas Stromclaw]

then again, on the flip side, Sedirae was a focal point for those who were disatisfied with the pace of the Heresy so maybe Horus saw this as a good opportunity to rid of a thorn.

 

WLK

I like this theory. After all, we are talking about the biggest, baddest, chaos worshipping scum who ever lived. Scheming was like breathing for him.

[Kizzdougs]

I think the decision to put Sedirae in harms ways was a very conscious decision on Horus's part.

Erebus makes this fairly clear.

After all, we all know Horus never suffered from any compunction regarding the removal of problematic elements of his legion, a la Istvaan.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think the decision to put Sedirae in harms ways was a very conscious decision on Horus's part.

Erebus makes this fairly clear.

After all, we all know Horus never suffered from any compunction regarding the removal of problematic elements of his legion, a la Istvaan.

 

I can see it, but have major problems trusting anything coming from erebus...

 

WLK

[Sgt.Sangha]

The thing is Wolf Lord, it sort of hints in the story that Luc had been constantly speaking out since Istvaan, even though they say that he could be a naysayer portion of the mournival, but it seems like horus isnt looking for a naysayer. even Devram, who agreed wholeheartedly with his late captain, seemed to change a bit when he sees the warmaster. sort of like hes falling in line, because of the consequences if he doesnt.

[increaso]

There is something else going on that is not fully explored in Nemesis.

 

Horus has plans that are not directly in line with those of Erebus (or, therefore, the chaos gods).

 

I don't think Horus was, is or ever will be seen as a chaos worshipper.

 

Chaos used him to start the heresy to take down the Emp. Horus was shown enough to make him turn on the Emperor. To the chaos gods Horus is a pawn being used to fulfill their aims (much like anyone that gets involved with chaos).

 

But i think Horus is using the backing of the chaos gods to meet his own aims.

 

We are not yet sure where the aims of the chaos gods and Horus differ, but they surely do.

 

Horus had some plan.

 

We know for example that he intended to 'exorcise' Fulgrim and the primarch worthy of the title of Warmaster has more on his 'to do' list than kill the Emperor.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But to answer the question.

 

It seems quite obvious that Luc Sedirae was intentionally sent down with the knowledge that he would be killed.

 

Does this mean that Horus has spies in the Imperial palace?

Did Horus intend to completely purge the world all along?

Who is Horus taking advice from?

 

and back to my previous point, what is his plan?

[douchie]

I tend to agree with the view that Sedirae was sent down intentionally.

 

Horus seemed unmoved by the fact that one of his Captains had been killed, almost like he had been expecting it to happen.

 

Simply more mopping up of rogue elements within the Sons of Horus who had atarted to rally towards the Captain of the 13th.

 

I'm also interested in the comment towards the end of the book about Horus having many spies on Terra & perhaps even within the Imperial palace. This seems to indicate that Horus knew of the kill team's mission.

[Sons of Horus]

For one such as the Warmaster there are more ways of learning about the assassins than mere spies. Sorcery anyone? :D

[Lord Tharand]

Dorn told him it was coming! I have no real evidence to back this up other than Dorn being totally against the original plan and assassins in general. Both Dorn and Horus echo the same sort of feeling in the book. Dorn wants Horus dead or defeated in martial combat. Horus near the end of the book comments that he alone will kill the Emperor if he doesn't shrae his view.

 

I agree with an early statement that Horus seems to have different goals than Erebus and the Chaos gods. As evidenced by Erebus's comments about Horus and Horus not thinking about killing the Emperor as his first action. Interesting.

 

All in all I thought it was a good book.

[randian]

Occam's Razor, people. The use of decoys by human leaders has been going on for as long as there have been humans. Horus sending one requires no advance knowledge of an assassination attempt.

[increaso]

Psykers and Occam's Razor are good and fair arguments for what happened when looking at the events in the story from a distance.

 

But the novel goes to some length (not a great length i'll admit) to disprove both of these points.

 

At one point in the book the assassins consider that Horus might have psykers who could find them, but they are confident that he does not/would not because it is not his modus operandi to use psykers.

 

And the points about sending a decoy as a matter of course is again not Horus's style. This is also emphasised in the book and is the exact reason why it is suggested that there may be spies on Terra.

 

Quite separate from this, James Swallow is a great author (well IMO) and I have faith that he would not have some unknown quantity that is neither revealed nor alluded to as the reason for the missions failure. That would be terrible story telling.

[Hialmar]

Occam's Razor, people. The use of decoys by human leaders has been going on for as long as there have been humans. Horus sending one requires no advance knowledge of an assassination attempt.

 

I disagree with this assessment. While nice, neat and easy, in this case the simplest explanation does not exactly mesh with the complete story as set-up in the book. It seems fairly clear that Luc Sedirae was causing some dissent and was being outspoken and Horus intentionally set him up to take the hit. Horus was not surprised and was already prepared to retaliate even before the assassins took their shot. Based on the narrative as whole it is clear that Horus either knew what was coming or had a pretty strong suspicion and decided to kill two birds with one stone.

 

I also think that contrary to what was stated in another post, Horus was firmly under the sway of chaos at this time and while he may not have been a chaos worshipper as such, he was clearly their pawn and dupe and had been ever since he had been wounded and healed.

[HandOfDorn]

I think Horus definitely sent Sedirae down on purpose, as we all know his cunning and merciless ways of disposing of naysayers, but i think there must also have been a mole or spy inside the Imperial Palace, as the book probably would have hinted at the use of psychic powers to detect such a plan, i think we can rule that one out. I think we will just have to wait and see and hope the traitor in the midst will emerge, i'd stale money on it being a Sire or Siress..

[Kizzdougs]

The first posible traitors that came to my mind were Siress Venenum and Sire Vanus. This theory is however based on nothing solid and simply the fact that they are never mentioned in "modern" 40k fluff.

 

The bit i found most interesting was the mighty Devram Korda as a vet. sgnt. I think we all know who the new Captain of the 13th will be :devil: I hope he features further into the series.

[esinhorn]

I am surprised no one picked up on the fact that the Vindicare Killed an Astartes Captain in the past.

When he tells Valdor of the Three people he clipped he starts to say a fourth"Brother-Captain ... when Valdor holds up a hand and cuts him off.

[Kizzdougs]

Yeah the Vindicar's past actions are pretty intriguing. Brother-Captain Who...?

 

This has also been discussed in another thread :devil: Search 'Nemesis'.

Some people believed he might have been a TS or a member of the 2nd or 11th Legion.

[awfulawful]

Sending Sedirae was a win-win for Horus. If there really were assassins there, he takes the bullet instead of Horus. If there were not, the honor that Horus had seemingly bestowed upon him may have quieted his dissent. It's that sort of cunning that made Horus the Warmaster in the first place.

[Captain Idaho]

Dorn told him it was coming! I have no real evidence to back this up other than Dorn being totally against the original plan and assassins in general. Both Dorn and Horus echo the same sort of feeling in the book. Dorn wants Horus dead or defeated in martial combat. Horus near the end of the book comments that he alone will kill the Emperor if he doesn't shrae his view

 

Defitinitly. I got the impression there was some kind of mutual agreement between brothers almost. Horus is described as being capable of doing anything to achieve victory by Malacador and Valdor, yet he forbid the use of assassaination against the Emperor. Why the change of heart, when he had done so many things less honourable even than a snipers-exeuctioners bullet?

 

Sending Sedirae was a win-win for Horus. If there really were assassins there, he takes the bullet instead of Horus. If there were not, the honor that Horus had seemingly bestowed upon him may have quieted his dissent. It's that sort of cunning that made Horus the Warmaster in the first place.

 

I can't agree with this at all. It was not win-win because additional power held by an important faction of dissent undermines you. He couldn't be sure additional honour placed on Sedirae would have made him more compliant, it would be a reckless gamble and logically this would not happen. It would have the reverse effect.

 

Chaos used him to start the heresy to take down the Emp. Horus was shown enough to make him turn on the Emperor. To the chaos gods Horus is a pawn being used to fulfill their aims (much like anyone that gets involved with chaos).

 

Horus and subsequently Abaddon both refuse to give in to the boon of Daemonhood. Why is this? We know he has very material based goals, of deposing the Emperor from the Throne of Terra, so can only assume he has no desire to be a pawn to Chaos, with his own ambitions. Whether he could deny the Chaos Gods their prize of his slavery is debatable, but it is possible he could have turned himself into a Chaos God with the masses of Humanity on his side following a potential victory ;)

 

I am surprised no one picked up on the fact that the Vindicare Killed an Astartes Captain in the past

 

Um, what is there to pick up? He admitted he had killed an Astartes in the past, which the Garantine was keen to emulate. Does this have any relevance I am missing, besides experience for the job at hand?

 

The first posible traitors that came to my mind were Siress Venenum and Sire Vanus. This theory is however based on nothing solid and simply the fact that they are never mentioned in "modern" 40k fluff.

 

Yeah they are about. Check the previous 2 Codex Assassains.

 

What do people think would have happened without Horus at the Heresy's head? Personally I believe this would have disorganised the traitors enough to force them into various factions. Ironically, each faction would be going their own separate ways (into Imperial space). This would have meant the end of the Imperium as they couldn't defeat the Traitors in a single stroke like the siege of the Emperor's palace or what Isstvaan was supposed to do, instead the Imperium would have fractured into dozens of pieces as the traitors each took a slice for itself.

 

Would this be better for mankind? Hard to say, but the Emperor would have been alive at least.

[Sgt.Sangha]

Qoute -- What do people think would have happened without Horus at the Heresy's head? Personally I believe this would have disorganised the traitors enough to force them into various factions. Ironically, each faction would be going their own separate ways (into Imperial space). This would have meant the end of the Imperium as they couldn't defeat the Traitors in a single stroke like the siege of the Emperor's palace or what Isstvaan was supposed to do, instead the Imperium would have fractured into dozens of pieces as the traitors each took a slice for itself.

 

 

I think this what Dorn was eluding to as well, not just the dishonourable concept of setting up assassins but also that these things just lead to power struggles and splinter groups which adds a whole new element to the equation. and we see this in 40k with all the traitor and renegade legions and so forth.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh yeah, I just want to say that I am really liking Dorn's character in these novels so far. He is strong willed but virtuous with it, dedicated to his role. Perhaps crucially, he isn't the 2 dimensional siege master we all though he was, as he was genuinely pained to fortify Earth.

[overlordjebus]

What would happen without Horus?

 

 

The Emperor would win. Simple as, it might take hundreds, thousands of years, but Horus dieing would do one main thing, give the Imperium some time. The Traitor legions would probably splinter and maybe even fight amongst themselves, they would attack the Imperium from every side BUT, even if they managed to take every world from the Emperor except Earth, even if all the loyalist legions were destroyed, the Emperor would still find a way to eventually beat them.

[miss dee]

I think that Dorn warned Horus since he did not like the underhanded backstabbing assassins.

 

good book found a mistake on page 174 i think it was that page.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think that Dorn warned Horus since he did not like the underhanded backstabbing assassins.

 

good book found a mistake on page 174 i think it was that page.

 

Wow, thats kinda nuts. never thought of that.

I do find it far fetched, just as Dorn is too upright in my opinion to go warning the monster that Horus is becoming, but interesting.

 

WLK

[HandOfDorn]

It is certainly a believable theory though, as there has to be a traitor within the ranks to have alerted the big H, unless he simply did send a proxy as he was too busy with organisation etc, although I imagine he would have sent someone of better stature than Sedirae..