Baal Predators

[Joasht]

I did a searchy about this a while ago but I did not notice a similar thread (at least not one recently) but I forgot to post it; until now.

 

Back when the BA codex first came out and I was flipping through a copy of the codex, it caught my attention because, lets face it, its a Predator thats in the Fast Attack slot that shoots many many shots per turn, even if its on the move. I also remember some people giving a knee-jerk reaction to it of how its so awesome, you'd want three in every army, etc.

 

However, looking at it without the hype around it clouding my judgement, I'm starting to think; is it worth all those points over a normal Predator? Granted it does take a Fast Attack slot so it is not directly comparable under some circumstances (e.g. when you already have all three HS slots filled), but lets just say its position in the composition chart was ignored (e.g. you haven't filled your slots yet); you are looking at a Predator that pays a lot of points for a twin-linked assault cannon and Scout and can opt to take a Firestorm cannon, which frankly I'm not too sold on the idea of strapping on such a close ranged weapon on a vehicle costing so many points with not-too-impressive armor as it presents itself to be too valuable a target to the opponent (the side armor of the Predator is pretty soft and unless you have a lot of terrain it is going to be hard to hide; and the front armor is barely soft enough to be crackable with Missiles).

 

Taking into consideration that the TL AC/Firestorm is a good weapon and scout is...well, an ability, the Baal is not overcosted per-se. However, one would argue that scout is not always the best rule to have; you run the risk of exposing your Baal to unnecessary fire if you run up with it, and outflank cannot be depended on (I generally dislike reserves/deep strike or anything that is extra random in nature). What this leaves you with is the ability to possibly reposition your vehicle.

 

The thing here is, although many would say "you can't even compare the TL AC/Firestorm with an autocannon", the points difference between a Baal and a normal Predator is pretty much more or less an Attack Bike or Land Speeder, and slots permitting, it might be more advantageous to actually buy a normal Predator and an Attack Bike/Land Speeder. For one, at least collectively they are tougher than one Baal.

 

Would like to hear what you guys think, thanks!

[JamesI]

Personally, I'm not sure the Assault cannon and scout move are worth the points. And I usually have heavy slots left over and not fast.

[Brother Nathan]

due to the faq saying you can pop moke after scouting it makes it a bit better. i use mine to take fire away from my vindicator...my baal always moves faster than my vindicator so for some reason theyy shoot the baal first...? dont know why but it works for me.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Baals are great. Well, if you equip them with the Assault cannon, that is. The heavy flamers might be considered against hordes, but even then your precious tank will be crashed in the following round.

 

The Flamestorm is...well, a oversized BBQ, but also a throw-away unit. Once flamed some marines, the tank will be busted as well.

 

Therefore, I think that heavy bolters + assault cannon is the best way to field a Baal, because the bolters can dish out some nice anti-infantry support and the assault cannon can even crack heavily armoured tanks.

 

 

Snorri

[Stefoserpent]

About the Assault Cannon...I think it has lost its glamor in the 5th edition...

 

Back in the 4th , you would roll 4 dices , and for every 6 you roll , bam , one enemy dead or a possible glancing/penetrating hit striking at 6str + 6 + d6 + another d6 = glancing at a 14 AV at 2+..

 

In the 5th , you roll 4 dices , and the average is that 2-3 will pass....then you roll again , and for every 6 , one enemy dead..the effectiveness against vehicles is much lower , cause 6str + 6 = 12 str + a D3 glancing at 3+ , penetrating 4+...

 

So I am no longer using assault cannons , I dont think they r worth it...

[R0N1N]

Using BAAL preds will depend on your play style and your army build. i use 2 in my army, one with FS cannon and one wiht AC. both have HB sponsons. I have a lot of success with mine and most of the time they are still at it turn 3, becasue by the end of turn 1 there is usually so many tings on the opponents side of the table that a BAAL pred is the least of their worries.

 

I have a very aggresive play style, and my army is build that way. I usually Scout move the BAAL's up, Drop the Dread with pod, move Meph up and move the LRC with Termies up. I melta, Frag cannon, Flame and generally shoot most of their armour to pieces, and any troops in the open (or in terrain) gets flamed to death... by turn 2 DoA drops another few squads, and if the POD is alive the beacon is like magic for my VV. All the time I have some Razors in the back shooting and popping things and it the fron I start the mopping up. This works pretty well for my style of play.

 

So, as I said, look at what you want to do with a BAAL. I you want to take it because you can use it effectively for it's purpose then take it. If you want to add it because it's a BAAL and BA "need" to have one in a army, then you probably don't have a use for it... Mine are for that initial shock and awe, after that they enemy are in retreat, and the HB's on the side can still shoot at stuff 36" away. Even a HB can glance most vehicle side armour. The AC is still gold if used right and I've popped my fair share of Land Raiders with mine.

 

My best resault yet with 2 BAAL's in 1 shooting phase was popping the LRC with the AC, and then have 2 termies die from the explosion. The Flamestorm killed 2 more as well as wounding a Chaplain... that unit never recovered from there...

 

if used smrtly a BAAL can be anywhere on the table turn 1 and shoot at stuff... and that is what I want out of one. How you play it, only you will be able to determine

[Mezkh]

Comparing AssC/HC to an AC/HB Pred without FOC considerations, I think it's worth it's extra 45 points, no more no less.

 

Where that extra outlay goes:

 

1) AssC is more valuable on the tank than AC.

2) Potential to outflank - could be very valuable, could be unfulfilled. Great if you're playing the reserves game for whatever reason, can be great in some deployment scenarios. It's not enough to say 'I don't like reserves/don't like outflank' because common scenarios arise in 40k where it's tactically advantageous for the player to make use of these rules.

3) Use of Smoke after scout - again could be very valuable, could be unfulfilled. The flexibility afforded by this option is worth some extra base points cost.

4) Up to 18" redeployment - the value of this varies depending on opponent's army, deployment rules, first turn. Again this is potentially huge or worthless in value.

 

Now if the Assault cannon is worth about ~15 points more than an autocannon at a conservative guess, ~30 points seems reasonable to pay for the potential to reap the benefits of the scout rule on the tank, as listed above. On balance I probably almost always would trade the potential ability of the attack bike to swing the game for me for the potential of the scout move and assault cannon on my tank to do the same.

 

The Flamestorm tank is a different beast. It offers a good first turn strike option in a list very good at supporting a first turn strike style of play. At 120 points for a Flamestorm and Dozer blade, it can put a hole in almost anything unmeched up to 30"+ away, and a good opponent will be at pains to avoid letting that fact surrender the initiative to you. If alphastrike is or becomes out, it's secondarily comparatively cheap reliable area denial. I'd happily turboboost bikes right up to the famous BA vindicator, but within 18" of a Flamestorm Baal is a total no-go.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Flamestorm tank is a different beast. It offers a good first turn strike option in a list very good at supporting a first turn strike style of play. At 120 points for a Flamestorm and Dozer blade, it can put a hole in almost anything unmeched up to 30"+ away, and a good opponent will be at pains to avoid letting that fact surrender the initiative to you. If alphastrike is or becomes out, it's secondarily comparatively cheap reliable area denial. I'd happily turboboost bikes right up to the famous BA vindicator, but within 18" of a Flamestorm Baal is a total no-go.

 

I plan to use the Flamestorm one soon. Scout it 12", pop smoke.

 

Setting me up nicely for a first turn roasting. The Flamestorm cannon is shockingly effective, and while they'll be close to the enemy (and they have to be due to the naure of the weapon), my opponent will have other targets as well, like first turn Drop Pods to consider.

 

My BA list is all about hitting fast and early, and unsettling them so you can bring in your SR deployed troops and DSers to clear up. Well, that's the plan anyway. ;)

[Grey Mage]

Yes- scout move/outflanking and an assault cannon from the autocannon is worth it in my opinion, and if the BA players dont want them Id be happy to take those rules off their hands.

[Drachnon]

I don't field a Baal predator in my current list since it doesn't fit but I do like them. Even with just the twin linked assault cannon it's a pretty good choice. Though slightly more expensive then the normal predator the twin linked assault cannon is great in combination with fast movement, allowing clear shots most of the time.

The assault cannon is still a pretty good anti tank weapon, when you rend you automatically have at least a glance on AV 13 and 2/3 chance to at least glance AV 14 and since the assault cannons are twin linked the chance of getting a rending hit on a vehicle is actually pretty good even compared to actual anti tank weapons. Next they are good against heavy infantry, especially things with T4 and a 4+ armor save are very afraid of the assault cannon.

 

The most important thing you should keep in mind though is not making him your only armoured target. I once had a list with 1 baal pred and the rest was jump infantry and it was pretty much a waste of points. try fielding it together with furioso dreads, predators, vindicators and troop transports, and during the game focus your fire against your opponents anti tanks capabilities.

[Crynn]

No, i don't think anyone would argue that scout + uprgeading an autocanon to an assault cannon is worth 50 points! that being said our normal predator is a bagain and does not therefore make the baal overpriced but I would take the standard pred every time, one condition though and you have already covered this. I run 2 vindis and a las autocannon pred, there is no room for another pred but the fast attack baal makes it in nice and is still a good unit for the cost.

 

My vote goes to the standard pred, I just look at it as you pay points for the baal being in a better slot which I am happy to do.

 

Regards

Crynn

[Chairman_woo]

Personally I feel that Baal preds are to some extent designed around that scout move, they are an armoured vanguard unit thats there to make use of the scout rule either as the tip of your armoured spear (positioning on turn 0 to best support the rest of your army) or as a outflanking reserve force when for whatever reason you dont want to/cant barrel forwards with all your armour. Normal preds seem more suited to acting in formation with your main force. That said its always going to be each to their own, and just about everything anyone else has said so far seems pretty valid in context.

 

 

On a side note imagine if Baals could take lascannon sponsons! That makes me think bad things ;)