Sang Guard as a troop choice...effective, or a waste

[Redfinger]

Like I have mentioned in previous posts, I really don't have alot of BA experience, this Friday will be my first game and I am really interested in a jump pack army. My list will be 2000 points and I really like Dante as a HQ and the Sang Guard as well, but Dante plus 2 properly equipped Sang Guard are almost 700 points, and that is only for 11 models.

 

So I am wondering is a 5 man squad w/ +2 saves and 2 attacks capable of replacing a full 10 man squad. Granted I have no expirience w/ BA but it seems that keeping them alive after the assault would be the hard part. On the other hand running one Sang Guard w/ seems like it could increase the survivability of the overall squad, and make for a decent hammer unit....but that hammer unit needs support and it seems like in a all jump army the options are few, VV or Honor Guard seem the most viable options...but then again your racking up some serious points for the VV, over 500 points as I roughly calculate it.

 

So these are just some of the thoughts I have had, again I would love a little direction....and yes I have read 3++ seen the Jumpers and Nipple Hammer lists, but I want to keep it all jump pack and dev's don't get them, and I would rather run Dante instead of 2 Lib's...anyway thoughts would be apreciated

 

Ashton

[Joasht]

Well, heres the thing. My gut response against them is that they are cool and nice to have around for fun games, but I really find it difficult to justify why they could possibly as awesome or competitive as some people make them out to be. This has included several good blogs and whatnot, but even though I do read, ask many questions and opinions on many things, ultimately you must remember that you decide what you want to take because some things may work for you and some things may not.

 

So coming back to the question at hand; I have done quite a lot of research on the Sanguinary Guard, because frankly I'm looking for a reason to justify playing them (plus I already bought them for the models). Till now I haven't played with them yet (haven't painted them haha) but theres one problem with them that I cannot seem to justify - their relative squishyness for the points.

 

Here is the thing about my personal opinion on all Space Marine armies - you need a good body count. If you've played against Space Marines with other armies and/or armies that can't take multiple power weapons in every single squad, you would soon realize that unless you have the tools to take them out (or enough attacks to force many many armor saves), very often Space Marines (even the basic guy) are not the easiest things to kill, and having more bodies simply makes the task harder for the opponent. Blood Angel armies have a tendency towards smaller armies because of the cost of many things, but this is somewhat balanced by the presence of the Sanguinary Priest, which makes Space Marines significantly harder to kill by sheer weight of fire, which is one of their weaknesses.

 

The Sanguinary Priest is a force multiplier; simply put, the more bodies you have on the field that can take advantage of him, the more efficient he is. Keep in mind that just one Priest is 50 points without any extra bells and whistles for a guy thats more or less a normal guy (1W) that is worth one Killpoint all by himself. So although you could argue that you could "squeeze as many Sanguinary Guard into the 6" Priest bubble as any other Space Marine", if your army only has 25 men as opposed to 50 men, thats 25 wounds-worth of Space Marines that aren't there for the benefit.

 

The reason why some expensive tiny elite armies work (e.g. TH/SS spam, Nobz bikers etc) is because they all have some way to improve their survivability, be it multiple wounds/wound allocation, invulnerable saves etc or have some form of force multiplier that works primarily on them (e.g. Vulkan). Although 5th ed does give more cover saves and whatnot, I still think that if something costs a lot of points, it better be EXCEPTIONALLY killy and/or have some way to survive better against things that are specially designed to kill Space Marines.

 

I will reserve my final judgment for when I've had several games in with them, but for now I simply don't think they are worth it for serious games, but I'm pretty sure they will be awesome fun for casual games :cuss

 

EDIT:

Forgot a disclaimer - I'm not saying GO MARINE SWARM ALWAYS COS ITZ BEST, I'm just saying I believe in playing with more bodies as opposed to more "toys". I'm not against playing with vehicles or elite infantry as I do play them myself (I have crazy love for landspeeders and cheap Razorbacks) :)

[Anpu42]

I do not plan on using the Sang Guard Myself, Oddly enough I am going with Sternguard ^_^

I used the Models to make my Honor Guard.

 

As far as a Troops Choice B)

 

I would probably compare them to Wolf Guard Pack [not as leaders].

Very Expensive High Risk/High Gain Unit that in smaller games were mistakes with one unit can cost you the game they are not worth it, but in the 3,000 game they are probably worth it.

[Crynn]

Well, heres the thing. My gut response against them is that they are cool and nice to have around for fun games, but I really find it difficult to justify why they could possibly as awesome or competitive as some people make them out to be. This has included several good blogs and whatnot, but even though I do read, ask many questions and opinions on many things, ultimately you must remember that you decide what you want to take because some things may work for you and some things may not.

 

So coming back to the question at hand; I have done quite a lot of research on the Sanguinary Guard, because frankly I'm looking for a reason to justify playing them (plus I already bought them for the models). Till now I haven't played with them yet (haven't painted them haha) but theres one problem with them that I cannot seem to justify - their relative squishyness for the points.

 

Here is the thing about my personal opinion on all Space Marine armies - you need a good body count. If you've played against Space Marines with other armies and/or armies that can't take multiple power weapons in every single squad, you would soon realize that unless you have the tools to take them out (or enough attacks to force many many armor saves), very often Space Marines (even the basic guy) are not the easiest things to kill, and having more bodies simply makes the task harder for the opponent. Blood Angel armies have a tendency towards smaller armies because of the cost of many things, but this is somewhat balanced by the presence of the Sanguinary Priest, which makes Space Marines significantly harder to kill by sheer weight of fire, which is one of their weaknesses.

 

The Sanguinary Priest is a force multiplier; simply put, the more bodies you have on the field that can take advantage of him, the more efficient he is. Keep in mind that just one Priest is 50 points without any extra bells and whistles for a guy thats more or less a normal guy (1W) that is worth one Killpoint all by himself. So although you could argue that you could "squeeze as many Sanguinary Guard into the 6" Priest bubble as any other Space Marine", if your army only has 25 men as opposed to 50 men, thats 25 wounds-worth of Space Marines that aren't there for the benefit.

 

The reason why some expensive tiny elite armies work (e.g. TH/SS spam, Nobz bikers etc) is because they all have some way to improve their survivability, be it multiple wounds/wound allocation, invulnerable saves etc or have some form of force multiplier that works primarily on them (e.g. Vulkan). Although 5th ed does give more cover saves and whatnot, I still think that if something costs a lot of points, it better be EXCEPTIONALLY killy and/or have some way to survive better against things that are specially designed to kill Space Marines.

 

I will reserve my final judgment for when I've had several games in with them, but for now I simply don't think they are worth it for serious games, but I'm pretty sure they will be awesome fun for casual games B)

 

EDIT:

Forgot a disclaimer - I'm not saying GO MARINE SWARM ALWAYS COS ITZ BEST, I'm just saying I believe in playing with more bodies as opposed to more "toys". I'm not against playing with vehicles or elite infantry as I do play them myself (I have crazy love for landspeeders and cheap Razorbacks) ^_^

 

 

While I play low model count armies and especially BA ones where I run many vehichles I couldn't agree more with this post. The only thing I would add is this.

To make them troops you have to take Dante. Dante is not a bad HQ but in competative games he has nothing on Meph, standard libs or chaplains. That being said, once you have made the choice to use Dante which isn't necassaraly a bad one you will find they are just too squishy. If and only if you wish to play them I have found a way to make them work which is quite simple. You play them the same way you play Mephiston in a competitive army.

 

You take many vehicles and completely block line of site to them at all time and use their manouvoruability to attack things only on your terms and generally where they will not face pw attacks in return. If you like many ba units plan on wiping out the unit you are targeting in the initial assault use one of your fast rhinos or razorbacks to drive next to the assault and thus be cover for the sang guard when they consolidate off the destroyed apponent. The sang guard are very typical of the blood angels and similar to Mephiston, they are scalples, do not let that armor save fool you into thinking they are tough, sure with a sang priest like meph they'll absorb a hail of standard fire but any specialised weapons and you have lost an expensive squad. be careful dont use cove COMPLETELY BLOCK LOS! you will then find them a usable unit, also one fist always in case of a walker and generally a banner.

 

Hope that helps

Regards

Crynn

[vahouth]

Well, I don't care if they are effective or not.

I'm planing on building a SG army, either way.

If they won't work on the table, they'll look great on the shelf.

[Anpu42]

Well, I don't care if they are effective or not.

I'm planing on building a SG army, either way.

If they won't work on the table, they'll look great on the shelf.

Now thats the right Attitude :)

[LordCommanderSamirus]

Until recently I had decided that Sanguinary Guard are a waste of points and generally a waste of an elite slot. Bearing in mind I regularly play 2000pt games and really like Vanguard. A friend of mine wanted to play a 2500 point game the last couple times we played and my initial thought both times was, "Great an extra 500 points to play with, what sort of toys can I get now?" I have been running an all deepstriking list and so my options were limited. The first game I went with a second Honour Guard, a Chaplain, an additional Priest. Their performance was overall... lack luster. Game was still a victory but it was close. Second game I decided, "OK different road this time, what else deep strikes? Oh yeah Terminators." So 500 points spent on terminators and a Priest in Termi armor. Well the one thing I was afraid of was mishaps due to huge scatter when teleporting... it happened, one squad destroyed when they missed the table due to a scatter of 12". That game was not a victory, as one might have expected when you lose more than 200pts before your opponent has even fired a shot at you. That of course brought me again to want to find something to fill that gap. Finally it came to me... Sanguinary Guard, I use Dante nearly every game over 1500pts and generally only have 2 ten man RAS as my troop choices. Why not use the unit I had originally deemed costly and inefficient. It finally made sense. "Don't use the Sanguinary Guard as your only Troop Choices, but use them as a supporting unit which can also be scoring if need be." This Theory will be put to the test this evening in yet another 2500pt game I'll let you all know how it goes.

 

-Samirus

[Redfinger]

I apreciate the feed back guys, I think I will try 1 unit of Sang guard to join Dante, I will finish out my list w/ 3 10 more RAS, 2 priests, 2 VV in total it will be 48 models, decent body count, I will have 6 meltas, 3 flame pistols, 6 infernous pistols, 6 power fists, 2 lightning claws, and 2 units w/ melta bombs, oh and 4 storm shields. So I have good anti-tank, allbeit it s on an a assault, I also figure I can use Dante and the Sang Gaurd as a hammer, tie up threatening things with the VV, create general havoc w/ my RAS and play smart with my priests, I will only have 2.

 

Allthough a full Sang Guard army would be fun, it would not have a good amount of survivability. If this list doesn't work out to well I think I will try Kirby's "Jumpers" list with the 2 Librarians.

 

Ashton

[Gentlemanloser]

I love them.

 

I've been using a small, elite BA lists to simulate some up to date Grey Knights.

 

I stick a Squad with Dante (all with a S Priest of course!) for flawless DS, and stick another couple into two Storm Ravens. (With some Scouts for extra objective holding).

 

And they rock.

 

The Ravens keep them safe from AP2 weapons, the Priest form anything else, and they disembark a Raven to slaughter (MC ower Weapons and FC!) anything bar squads with SS/LotD like Invulnerable saves in CC. It's like having your own Bloodletters, but with better survivability!

 

The only problem issue with them is the lack of high S attacks to take out Walkers or Armour. But if you can cover that from other areas (Dreads also in your Ravens, TML on them, etc) then it shouldn't be too much of a problem, as the Ravens let you pick and choose your fights.

 

And if Dante is tarpitted by a Walker, he can hit and run with his squad to get out of there. 3d6 H&R combined with a 12" move. Lovely! ;)

[Ranwulf]

I love them.

 

I've been using a small, elite BA lists to simulate some up to date Grey Knights.

 

I stick a Squad with Dante (all with a S Priest of course!) for flawless DS, and stick another couple into two Storm Ravens. (With some Scouts for extra objective holding).

 

And they rock.

 

The Ravens keep them safe from AP2 weapons, the Priest form anything else, and they disembark a Raven to slaughter (MC ower Weapons and FC!) anything bar squads with SS/LotD like Invulnerable saves in CC. It's like having your own Bloodletters, but with better survivability!

 

The only problem issue with them is the lack of high S attacks to take out Walkers or Armour. But if you can cover that from other areas (Dreads also in your Ravens, TML on them, etc) then it shouldn't be too much of a problem, as the Ravens let you pick and choose your fights.

 

And if Dante is tarpitted by a Walker, he can hit and run with his squad to get out of there. 3d6 H&R combined with a 12" move. Lovely! ;)

 

Stormravens does actually seems capable of protecting your warriors. I think Libby Dreads are also a good potion since they can create a Shield to the Storm Raven itself.

 

Ran

[Gentlemanloser]

I prefer the normal Furioso's over the Libby's. The Frag Cannon (and Magna Graple) is awesome!

 

Usually my Ravens have the 'moves fast' 4+ save anyway, but that's a nice tip about sticking a Libby Dread in there for the 5+. ;)

[Zid]

I find sang guard kind of suck for the points... no invunerable save kills them in so many ways its sad. For 5 sang guard + 1 pf + 1 infernus you can almost get a full 10 man AM squad w/ 2 meltas and a pf... tack on the fact you need a priest to make the guard effective (unless you get thirst), makes them cost even more. They're fun to run into a squad of nobz and watch quite a few fall over, but once the power klaws swing its gg :)

 

I just have a hard time justfying the points for so little ;)

[dadieau]

I have been trying to get the Sanguinary Guard to work since the new Codex came out. Sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

On the bright side they have the cheapest Melta pistols in the codex. Match them with Dante and you get six melta shots on whatever you want (well most of the time). And while they are now deep in enemy territory and the prime target they provide Dante with some ablative wounds.

 

On the down side Dante ain't all that and it's hard to find just the right spot to drop the unit so that it will both pop that vehicle of choice and not be exposed to an armies worth of fire/counter attack.

 

The trick is to find that sweet spot to drop them on and have more pressure in the same area that your opponent must consider.

[Spagunk]

Although I agree that the Sang Guard aren't the "I win" buttons they seem to be priced at, they work well as long as you use them correctly. Flying blindly into the fray is not the best use. You want to go for those nice pockets of tough campers or someone who needs to be flushed out. 15 power weapon attacks with MC re-roll are going to net you a lot of wounds with no saves. Either you use them strategically, or they become toast. I like to drop them into the back field to panic my enemy.

 

I did have the misfortune of deploying them semi out in the open. My enemy's predator destructor decided to hunt them down so I had to back them off from making their way up the field. A good thing because my opponent outflanked his chaos chosen into my deployment zone which I managed to fend off with both the angelus bolters and the power weapon attacks.

[Stormbrow II]

If they won't work on the table, they'll look great on the shelf.

Yeah they do:

A buddy's Sang Guard.

 

It's halfway down the page. Or maybe, just maybe...

 

http://666kb.com/i/blj9cxvan5aii8g20.jpg

 

I ran 2 squads in a Dante/Stormraven list earlier today and they smashed their way through some other RAS squads (2 x 10 man, and 4 HG with 4 SS/Fist) unsupported having been dropped off by a Stormraven each and I was quite impressed with their killing power.

 

They do need to be beefed up with a Sang Priest for FNP to help them last against hordes of enemies though because it can go downhill quickly with a pair of 1's for armour saves with such a small squad compared to a relatively big blob of JP Marines.

 

The main downside is that you need Dante, and he's a bit crap. S4 doesn't cut it in tough combats, even with Hit and Run.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

yah the sanguard were good today just poor rolling on dantes part after 3 conbat phases not killing a lone dev. But they didnt kill the honour guard and only killed 1 ras squad.

[bulley]

Just finished up my first 3 games with my BA's (or 40K for the first time in 10 years).

 

The first 2 games the SG's were amazing, the sheer ammount of attacks they had was insane, and they didnt face many power weapons and avoided low AP, were brutal. In the final game, despite Dantes best effort to finish an entire squad by himself on the charge, the PW's of the terms got the better of the SG and took most of them down - 1 survived. However 2 out of 3 games was great. I am a bit more wise now to not rely on Dante to get the work done before they mop up.

 

Though the MVP of all 3 games has to be the same MG RAS that fired 3 shots and took out x3 LR's - every time a 6!.

[Mudpuppet]

http://666kb.com/i/blj9cxvan5aii8g20.jpg

 

Holy Jesus. Those are incredible!

 

Im lost for words, your friend who painted those is a genius, seriously.

 

Mudpuppet

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I had two great games with Dante and my Sanguinary Guard yesterday. One game all they did was act as a distraction and did not get into one close combat. The other game they popped Abbadon's landraider easily securing the win. They are definitely one of my favorite new units and being able to field them as a troop choice is pure win for me. At first I was not a big fan of Dante but now that I have learned how to better use him I have found him to the best HQ choice by far if you want to play a jump heavy army.

 

0b ;)

[shan vener]

If they won't work on the table, they'll look great on the shelf.

Yeah they do:

A buddy's Sang Guard.

 

It's halfway down the page. Or maybe, just maybe...

 

http://666kb.com/i/blj9cxvan5aii8g20.jpg

 

I ran 2 squads in a Dante/Stormraven list earlier today and they smashed their way through some other RAS squads (2 x 10 man, and 4 HG with 4 SS/Fist) unsupported having been dropped off by a Stormraven each and I was quite impressed with their killing power.

 

They do need to be beefed up with a Sang Priest for FNP to help them last against hordes of enemies though because it can go downhill quickly with a pair of 1's for armour saves with such a small squad compared to a relatively big blob of JP Marines.

 

The main downside is that you need Dante, and he's a bit crap. S4 doesn't cut it in tough combats, even with Hit and Run.

 

i literally had tears on my face when i saw these. please tell me you do commissions.

[Crynn]

If they won't work on the table, they'll look great on the shelf.

Yeah they do:

A buddy's Sang Guard.

 

It's halfway down the page. Or maybe, just maybe...

 

http://666kb.com/i/blj9cxvan5aii8g20.jpg

 

I ran 2 squads in a Dante/Stormraven list earlier today and they smashed their way through some other RAS squads (2 x 10 man, and 4 HG with 4 SS/Fist) unsupported having been dropped off by a Stormraven each and I was quite impressed with their killing power.

 

They do need to be beefed up with a Sang Priest for FNP to help them last against hordes of enemies though because it can go downhill quickly with a pair of 1's for armour saves with such a small squad compared to a relatively big blob of JP Marines.

 

The main downside is that you need Dante, and he's a bit crap. S4 doesn't cut it in tough combats, even with Hit and Run.

 

 

WOW, I'm not one to get caught up or impressed by someones painting I see some amazing gd winners at my local store and through friends but my gosh, THEY ARE INCREDIBLE!!!!

 

Thats it I change my mind. Sang Guard are amazing in game they destroy anything and everything unconditionally, infact I had a squad take out abaddon and a termie squad in one round then they got shot by the guys entire 2000pt army and none died! They are so good, everyone should take them, oh and Dante is the best HQ choice ever! Whatever it takes to see those models on the the table, is the sacrificies one must make. SG = Best all round unit for cost, in any dex, ever..... nuff said.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

?

[ImperialReaper]

I have to pick up taht topic again because I saw some Video about the sanguinian guard. I too always thaught just like terminators they are too expensive and cant be justified.

 

But then they just explained that they are in fact pretty cheap. I was like "EY WHAT?!". Then I did some calculation myself and found out - damn they are planely right.

 

Take a similar 5 man Squad of veterans with 2 Attacks per Model - which would be the Vanguard ( Or Sternguard I always got them mixed up - the close combat guys). Then fit them out with 5 normal powerweapons. You end up at about 230 pts already - just guys with powerweapons. The Sanguinian Guard comes at 200 dead with master craftet powerweapons, jumppacks and a 2+ Armor save - and those are all things that are realy usefull not just nice to have.

Even a standard Assault Squad would end up at 175 pts - with just 5 powerweapons (not like they could carry that much..).

 

So looking at them that way they realy are NOT to expensive in my oppinion. The only downside that they will use up your elite slots you should use for dreadnoughts and priests. But as standard choices in a list with commander dante they are totally justified IMO.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I never play them with a Power Fist because they are best when striking first with a lot of attacks on the charge (FC + Banner gives them 4 S5 attacks each, so 20 PW attacks at I5 with rerolls to hit).

I play them with 2 upgrades: The Chapter Banner and 1 infernus pistol. This brings them to 240 points, which is the same amount as a 10 man RAS with 2 MGs and a Thunder Hammer. The 10 man RAS kitted such on the charge has: 3 TH attacks and 25 normal attacks on the charge. So they really don't do that much more besides have more bodies between them and the enemy. They are even less efficient because the RAS can't get the reroll to hit!

Compare them with an HG with LCs and they get the reroll to wound over to hit. Now with S5 I'd rather have reroll to hit vs MEQ than to wound to be honest.

 

Now, adding a Sang Priest with Power weapon to either means the RAS gets the normal 4 extra PW attacks, while the SG also gives the Sang Priest 1 extra PW attack. So that means the difference gets even LESS when you add a priest.

The same counts for adding Dante or any JP HQ to the same group. That banner really is a multiplier for any IC you add to it.

 

Yes, I know the banner can be given to only 1 squad (which is why I feel a Sang Guard army isn't viable) and it can also be given to the HG. But an HG cannot be scoring, and a Sang Guard with Dante can be scoring.

 

Also, the Angelus Boltgun is the best weapon the BA have in large numbers. Better than a Bolt Pistol for the shooting before the assault and the lack of range isn't a problem in this unit because if it isn't within charge range during the shooting phase it shouldn't be in 24 inch range either!

 

The Sang guard is our scalpel unit. Use it wisely and against the right target and it will literally slaughter what it charges before it has a chance to strike back. Just watch out for other I5+ units with armor ignoring attacks, those are your biggest enemy and you should only attack them if you have no other options. But a small unit of Nobz or Nob Bikers or even Terminators (if not unlucky with rolls) should be killable by the Sang Guard.