Is Seth worth it?

[Khavos]

I've finally succumbed to the notion that I'm going to have to use Counts-As Special Characters if I want a non-Librarian, non-Chaplain HQ unit that's decent in my BA army. If I go the jump pack route, I'll roll with The Sanguinor, who's ridiculously expensive but awfully good. The trouble is if I don't go the jump pack route; the choices are Tycho and Seth.

 

I really want to like Seth. His model is awesome if only for the two-handed chainsword alone. Strength 8 hits are nice. Rending is...okay, I guess. But he's only rolling around with a 3+/4+, all those hits get armor saves, and all of his special rules benefit himself alone. Tycho, on the other hand, has a decent army-wide rule, and his attacks at least ignore armor saves, but he's basically just rolling around with a power sword. Both the non-JP SCs seem pretty underwhelming, but Seth in particular seems like a waste, doesn't he?

[Grey Mage]

Heres the thing- Seth is only 160pts.

 

Hes a steal, a bargain, a great value. Hes not the most imposing thing in all creation, but hes more than worth his points against most armies out there.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

While it is true that Seth is lacking some anti infantry potential due to not having a power weapon, he more than makes up for it when it comes to smashing armor. Str 8 rending attacks at I5? Go break some land raiders or dreadnoughts.

[KhorneHunter57x]

Think of Seth as more of an anti-Tank and anti-Horde HQ. With Whirlwind and the other 'if you miss I punch you' rule, he is best against large, 5+ save or worse units. Also, due to the Strength of his attacks, he can be decent against MCs.

[Brother Nathan]

withycho you forgot to mention bloodsong. You now the big mfg with sternguard rounds and comi melta... And attacks rolling 2d6 against armour. but yea thers not a great deal difference in them but tycho does do a good variety of jobs while sth specialses at smashing stuff up in cc...

[Fracture]

I felt the same about Seth when I 1st read his rules but after using him in a few games I've been won over.

 

He's cheap as chips which means that there's about 80 extra points on other special characters to go in the rest of the army. As mentioned already he is very good against horde troops and armour, anything with a decent save will give him a few problems.

 

Best he has done for me so far is single handedly whirlwinding to death 11 genestealers, 2 nid warriors and a warrior prime over 3 turns of combat. he did get lucky with his saves but that was over 400pts of nids for a 160pt character.

[Tamwulf]

Play them both and see which one you like better.

 

For me, it's Seth all the way, as he is sooo cheap for what he can do. Losing him during a game... doesn't hurt near as much as a 200+ point special character. Another factor- both will be rolling with a Sanguinary Priest and/or Blood Chalice nearby. Suddenly, Seth's 3+ Armor Save just doesn't bother me all that much as the wound can be ignored 50% of the time.

 

What it should come down to then, is what role you envision for Seth or Tycho and how you expect them to perform on the battlefield.

 

Stat lines of Capt. Tycho vs. Chapter Master Gabriel Seth:

Both are very similar, except Seth has an extra wound, and an extra attack. As noted earlier, Tycho has a 2+ Armor save vs. Seth's 3+. Both have an Iron Halo.

 

Both are Independent Characters, allowing for a great deal of flexibility when it comes to where/which squad they will join.

 

The Special Rules between the two are interesting to say the least. Tycho has Rites of Battle while he is on the battlefield. Your whole army using his superior Leadership can be very nice... but only while he is on the table, and let's be honest here: Most of your units will be Fearless already, have The Red Thirst, or even The Black Rage. In the end, this is a minor advantage for Blood Angels. Preferred Enemy: Orks can be a very helpful skill... when you are facing Orks, and when Tycho gets into combat with them. Seth doesn't have much for special rules... just Fearless and IC. Oh, and two really cool named special rules: Whirlwind of Gore, and Ferocious Instincts. Both reward Seth for being surrounded/out numbered in close combat.

 

The equipment both have really separates the two characters: Tycho has a Combi-Melta that can shoot Sternguard style ammo (still wondering why you would ever want to use anything besides Hellfire Rounds, but I guess sometimes...). He also has what amounts to a Master Crafted Power Weapon that adds a d6 for Armor Penetration. Seth wields the mighty Blood Reaver, a two handed chainsword that allows him to hit at Strength 8 and has Rending.

 

Summary:

Tycho has the advantage in shooting with his Blood Song Combi-Melta, but is a bit... lackluster in close combat. A regular Blood Angels Captain with a Combi-Melta, Melta Bombs, and Power Sword is just as effective in close combat and is cheaper then Tycho. Seth has his awesome Bolt Pistol for shooting the enemies of the Imperium. Fear it. ;) In close combat though... the advantage clearly is for Seth. Sure, Blood Reaver is not a power weapon, but it's at Strength 8, and it has Rending. Against vehicles, Seth will rock face. Against Monstrous Creatures, again, Seth will rock face. I'm biased- it's Gabriel Seth, an :)-Kicking, bubblegum chewing, Whirlwind of Death that head-butts guys in close combat. Tycho is... an Emo-Captain worried about his soul. Bah! Such contemplation and attitude has no place on the battlefield! :P

[Captain Kael]

I have just been convinced to use Seth. ;)

 

Captain Kael

[PhantomPhoenix]

Seth makes Eldar cry and Valkyries cry. "What's that? You went really fast and I'm only hitting on sixes? Nah, I think I'll spin real fast and hit you anyway..." S8 rending auto hits on the backs of skimmers will generally do something, even if it's only stopping it from moving so someone else can finish it off... That and I'm a huge fan of the Seth model, wish he was Angels Sanguine instead of Flesh Tearers...

[the jeske]

like mefisto ... no . but he is cheap and still viable. like Khârn in chaos lists, DP still better choice but when you play 1000-1500 pts he does ok.

[Morticon]

like mefisto ... no . but he is cheap and still viable. like Khârn in chaos lists, DP still better choice but when you play 1000-1500 pts he does ok.

 

Smart observation there!!

[Crynn]

OMG!!!! I JUST FOUND A SECRET 90 POINT UPGRADE FOR SETH THAT IS INSANE FOR ONLY 90 POINTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG OMG OMG!!!!!!!!!

 

he looses his invun, IC and rending but he gets +1 WS +2 str +2 toughness +1 wound +2 I +2 attacks and his armor goes 2+ the blood reaver turns into a ST10 force weapon!!!!! holy sheets! and he gets fleet a free jump pack but can go in vehicles still gets a plasma pistol and can reroll all hits and a special ability that makes him reroll hits and wonds against ICs!!! and a psychic hood!!!! all this for 90 points!!!! its called the mephiston upgrade and my god does he kills veicles even better!

 

Hahaha ok jokes aside, you want a BA captain well your out of luck, the normal captain is horrible and between tycho and seth they are both rather average.

 

Yes seth is cheap for a special character but he isnt cheap, that is a misnomer. tycho is also quite expensive however is beter against vehicles than people think. Like someone said they will be near a preist so if they charge tycho will be str 5 and seth will str 8 giving tycho an average armor pen role of 12 and seth not including rending of 11.5. Now im not saying tycho is better vs vehicles im just giving you some perspective, tycho is also better vs heavy infantry byquite a margin. Note that tycho has a 2+ to hot melta with extra range so that will have a very good chance to kill a vehicle as well.

 

I honestly don't like either of your options and mathamatically its almost a stalemante between them interms of what they can and cant kill effectively. at 160 and 175 points respectively neither are really "cheap" as fot that price you could get more that 3 MM attack bikes which will out perform both every time but look at where they will be fighting, ie in honor guards tac squads sternguard and make your decision on that, if its front line, my vote just goes to seth if its move a counter role tycho and his army bonus is nice to boot.

 

If i had to pick and I used your wants of no libs or chaplins i would take a captain with jp and lightning claws or if on foor a captain with claws, that latter is quite cheapand does at least one thing wellish. Really just find a way to squeeze the sanguinor into every game. haha

 

Hope that helps

 

Regards Crynn

[Grey Mage]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

[Anpu42]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

Expecialy when backed up with an Honor Guard ;)

[Grey Mage]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

Expecialy when backed up with an Honor Guard ;)

Indeed... with a Chapter Banner and some extra SSs or PWs in there.... nice.

[Khavos]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

 

With a Chapter Banner and an SP bubble, yeah, he could be fairly killy...but those same buffs would make inherently more killy SCs even more killy, too. Plus, with only a 4+ invuln and no Eternal Warrior, he's one MEQ powerfist away from simply vanishing.

 

Sub-1750, the 2LC JP Captain is what I'll run as one HQ, but at 1750+ - and maybe even at 1500 - I really want to try my hand with The Sanguinor, especially as I've finally come up with some counts-as fluff that I like. The trouble is putting together a good non-mech or low-mech army to support him.

[Grey Mage]

Those are just gravy- hes plain killy with just a couple weapon/mobility upgrades.

 

Sorry... Ive played in environments where NO special characters were allowed, no exceptions, ever- you learn to value the reliable captains ability to mulch half a squad in the first round of combat.

[Khavos]

Those are just gravy- hes plain killy with just a couple weapon/mobility upgrades.

 

Sorry... Ive played in environments where NO special characters were allowed, no exceptions, ever- you learn to value the reliable captains ability to mulch half a squad in the first round of combat.

 

I'd love to play in that sort of environment, and I'd be pretty happy with the 2LC JP Captain in it.

 

Until I ran into Thunderlords, anyway.

[Kassill]

Seth makes Eldar cry and Valkyries cry. "What's that? You went really fast and I'm only hitting on sixes? Nah, I think I'll spin real fast and hit you anyway..." S8 rending auto hits on the backs of skimmers will generally do something, even if it's only stopping it from moving so someone else can finish it off... That and I'm a huge fan of the Seth model, wish he was Angels Sanguine instead of Flesh Tearers...

 

 

Me too lol. I plan on using him in my AS army as my 5th Company Captain.

[ImperialReaper]

Maybe stating the obvious here - but S8 also means that you will wound on 2s and anything under T5 will be instant killed.

[Brother Biskit]

Maybe stating the obvious here - but S8 also means that you will wound on 2s and anything under T5 will be instant killed.

Makes him sick against IC's with a poor save. All it takes is one failed save for an insta-gib. Even ones with a decent save need to fear him because he strikes at initiative and a good rending wound is quite likely considering the number of attacks at high WS he can put out.

[Crynn]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

Expecialy when backed up with an Honor Guard ^_^

Indeed... with a Chapter Banner and some extra SSs or PWs in there.... nice.

 

How do reply to this when you admit he's not as good as other choices, the chaplain hq is worlds above him for 20 points. Your logic or lack there of is rediculous. *shakes my head* really. The guy is obviously trying to find ways of making a good choice for captain, don't tell him to take one cause they aren't bad but there are better choices, he is horrible because there are better choices. We also have the worst captain of any SM chapter!

 

Based on the theory of hes not bad and can still be killy but less so than other choices, if there were 19point tac marines we should take them too as they "aren't that bad". Sometimes GW makes mistakes, the BA captain is one, dont use him ever, he may be the most useless unit in our book.

 

On a side note any IC would be good with a HG with pw and SS', the captain the least so

 

Regards Crynn

[PhantomPhoenix]

Sometimes GW makes mistakes, the BA captain is one, dont use him ever, he may be the most useless unit in our book.

 

That would actually be BA Techmarines, but that's beside the point. I personally like the Reclusiarch more than the Captain as well. But the captain doesn't force Fearless on his Unit, it's a nice ability but when you already have Ld10 and ATSKNF it's actually more of a con IMO than a pro. Granted that's all a little off topic as the OP was asking about non-Chappy non-Libby HQs...

 

In an attempt to stay on topic, I'm a big fan of Seth but you have to use him right. He will tear the crap out of standard infantry and he'll do it fast. Charge him solo into a group of ranged fire support (Lootas, Devs, IG Blobs) or even large 'less than choppy' units like termagants and watch him eat them as fast if not faster than many full units. You send him head first into another IC or a MC and he's going to bite the big one. Simply put, he's not a hammer as much as a blender. You stick a piece of metal into that blender and it's done, but if he works right he'll leave a fine mush that was once his enemies.

[Grey Mage]

*shakes head* A captain isnt horrible. Hes not as good at squad support as the other two generic choices, but hes not bad. In fact, hes pretty dead killy with a couple lightning claws and jump pack.

Expecialy when backed up with an Honor Guard ^_^

Indeed... with a Chapter Banner and some extra SSs or PWs in there.... nice.

 

How do reply to this when you admit he's not as good as other choices, the chaplain hq is worlds above him for 20 points. Your logic or lack there of is rediculous. *shakes my head* really. The guy is obviously trying to find ways of making a good choice for captain, don't tell him to take one cause they aren't bad but there are better choices, he is horrible because there are better choices. We also have the worst captain of any SM chapter!

 

Based on the theory of hes not bad and can still be killy but less so than other choices, if there were 19point tac marines we should take them too as they "aren't that bad". Sometimes GW makes mistakes, the BA captain is one, dont use him ever, he may be the most useless unit in our book.

 

On a side note any IC would be good with a HG with pw and SS', the captain the least so

 

Regards Crynn

Just because something isnt the best, doesnt mean it isnt good.

 

I like choclate milk more than I like orange juice, that doesnt mean orange juice is bad though.... its just not as good as the milk. Sometimes there will be meals where the orange juice is better, even though I dont like it as much in general.

 

Example: A librarian brings alot to the table, but against higher initiative armies, particularly the psychic shutdown that is Eldar, the captain would have been a far better investment with his strikes at I6 on the charge, wounding on a 2+ when one considers their offensive capacities.

 

The captain is not a bad unit.

 

The most useless unit in the BA book is probly the elite choice Chaplain. DC can get Lemartes, anyone else is either poorly served by this directly inferior version of the HQ Chaplain, or simply doesnt need one.

[Joasht]

The most useless unit in the BA book is probly the elite choice Chaplain. DC can get Lemartes, anyone else is either poorly served by this directly inferior version of the HQ Chaplain, or simply doesnt need one.

 

Funny that we BA players consider the "HQ Chaplain" of other chapters as crap in ours XD

 

Well I've been thinking about the use of the elite Chaplain, and a possible application which I'm rather eager to try out in non-kill point games (aka you'd PROBABLY not want to use this in a tournament) is something like 4-5 chaplains (counting the HQ), 0-3 Sang Priests (depending on whether you take 2 or 3 elite Chaplains) and two Honor Guard squads (for the Priests in them). Then spam the table with as many squads of men as you can.

 

I think the idea is self-explanatory and points-wise the whole idea isn't very expensive if you keep upgrades minimal, but you'd have an unholy amount of kill points. Well, I guess if the game is big enough (maybe 2000) you COULD take this to a kill point game, because the sheer overabundance of force multipliers would mean theres a somewhat alright chance of you tabling your opponent for the win.