Is Seth worth it?

[tahrikmili]

The Captain is certainly not 'horrible' he's just not as effective as a Reclusiarch. But you are missing the fact that he WS6, which is a great deal in CC.

 

I like to filed a Captain in Terminator Armor with basic Power Sword and Storm Bolter along with my Tactical Terminators and just watch them roll across the field behind my Furioso, drawing all kinds of fire until they reach something and tear it apart.. I have a shooty Blood Angels army and they are really good at taking attention away from my scoring units and heavy support while annoying the crap out of the enemy.

 

In other news, I think Seth is all kinds of awesome. I'd probably use either him or Tycho in my army if I could squeeze the points.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The Captain is certainly not 'horrible' he's just not as effective as a Reclusiarch. But you are missing the fact that he WS6, which is a great deal in CC.

 

I like to filed a Captain in Terminator Armor with basic Power Sword and Storm Bolter along with my Tactical Terminators and just watch them roll across the field behind my Furioso, drawing all kinds of fire until they reach something and tear it apart.. I have a shooty Blood Angels army and they are really good at taking attention away from my scoring units and heavy support while annoying the crap out of the enemy.

 

In other news, I think Seth is all kinds of awesome. I'd probably use either him or Tycho in my army if I could squeeze the points.

 

Giving him a power sword really is a suboptimal choice as he doesn't get the extra CC attack for an additional close combat weapon when using a storm bolter. A claw would be much better.

[tahrikmili]

Giving him a power sword really is a suboptimal choice as he doesn't get the extra CC attack for an additional close combat weapon when using a storm bolter. A claw would be much better.

 

True, but would cost 5 Pts more, and require a conversion :D Sometimes less points and less effort is better than costly and difficult.

[Demoulius]

i think Seth has amazing potential :D if your T4 opponent fails a single armour or invunerable save from rending hes done for :lol: oh 4 armour saves? no problem! *fails one* dang...your hq just died! :verymad:

[Crynn]

The Captain is certainly not 'horrible' he's just not as effective as a Reclusiarch. But you are missing the fact that he WS6, which is a great deal in CC.

 

I like to filed a Captain in Terminator Armor with basic Power Sword and Storm Bolter along with my Tactical Terminators and just watch them roll across the field behind my Furioso, drawing all kinds of fire until they reach something and tear it apart.. I have a shooty Blood Angels army and they are really good at taking attention away from my scoring units and heavy support while annoying the crap out of the enemy.

 

In other news, I think Seth is all kinds of awesome. I'd probably use either him or Tycho in my army if I could squeeze the points.

 

Giving him a power sword really is a suboptimal choice as he doesn't get the extra CC attack for an additional close combat weapon when using a storm bolter. A claw would be much better.

 

How is it hard to put on a lightning claw? I think that just shows the irrelivancy of this post. The type of player who endorses a captain with power sword and storm bolter over lightning claw is the player who thinks seth and tycho are fantastic HQ choices. nuff said really.

 

As for that last post about seth causing 4 armor saves? what world do you live in? he only has 3 attacks 4 on the charge. Did he hit and wound every time? based on that we should just take loads of tac marines cause like wouldn't 3 squads with all boltguns rapid fire and wound 60 times?!! Holy crap that'll take down almost everything!

[Malus the Destroyer]

No, Seth isn't a force multiplier like alot of things. No he isn't an end all be all beat stick next to Mephiston. But for the points, he get's :cuss done. I've personally used his Whirlwind of Gore to chop 2 land raiders in half in 1 assault, and cleave a few guys. His nut kick/headbutt is actually great. It's basically a "Ahhhh yer stupid, here's you're reward" bonus damage (And the greatest damn thing in the world Vs Khârn when he rolls a truck load of 1's VS you!)

I view and use Seth from the perspective that, I put my points and emphasis on everything else, and still have a charecterful, and good HQ. The Auto-hit is also nice for dealing with fast Vehicles. You don't need all his attacks to try to hit. Anything fast generally has a low enough armor that Seth can eat it one 1 hit.

I've used a good number of the HQ's thus far, and Seth is the only one I will ALWAYS go back to.

[Crynn]

No, Seth isn't a force multiplier like alot of things. No he isn't an end all be all beat stick next to Mephiston. But for the points, he get's :cuss done. I've personally used his Whirlwind of Gore to chop 2 land raiders in half in 1 assault, and cleave a few guys. His nut kick/headbutt is actually great. It's basically a "Ahhhh yer stupid, here's you're reward" bonus damage (And the greatest damn thing in the world Vs Khârn when he rolls a truck load of 1's VS you!)

I view and use Seth from the perspective that, I put my points and emphasis on everything else, and still have a charecterful, and good HQ. The Auto-hit is also nice for dealing with fast Vehicles. You don't need all his attacks to try to hit. Anything fast generally has a low enough armor that Seth can eat it one 1 hit.

I've used a good number of the HQ's thus far, and Seth is the only one I will ALWAYS go back to.

 

Chopping too land raiders in 1 turn is almost impossible please dont use that as any form of rationalization for seth. Meph on the charge will still kill a fast vehicles more easily than seth even if he hits it on sixes and as for chopping two landraiders, not only do you have to multi charge which is impossible for an indipendant character with or without a squad you then need to roll 2 6's followed by another 5+ then another 5+ so to do that to 2 landraiders in a turn is less than a 1% chance and your opponent has to drive 2 landraiders into base contact with seth in the same turn in which case hes so stupid he'll loose the game anyway. A librarian with sword will kill more vehicles faster on AVERAGE than seth any day of the week.

[Malus the Destroyer]

And Seth packs more wounds than most other char's, giving him ALOT of staying power. Look, Crynn, if you don't like him, don't use him. But I love the model, the rules, the cost. That same librarian with only 2 higher strength AFTER a psychic test, can't do the other things Seth can. Like make Invul saves, lynch mobs of guys, and tbh.......Seth carries alot of respect and fear as a model, vs another nameless Librarian. Whether a librarian can or would perform better in a certain circumstance does not change the fact he's a blue armored lil dude with a 1 hand weapon. And then the opposing player looks at the sociapath with the giant 2h Chainsword, and gets cold feet. Intimidation can force bad tactical decisions.

In my experiences with him, even if he costed 200 points, I'd still uncomfortably, yet faithfully field him. He doesn't even mesh with my all Jump pack army, and yet, I stand by him as fun, good model to deploy.

Gabriel Seth is exactly everything he is supposed to be. A decently cheap point hq, that is tough as nails, intimidating, mean bastard Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers.

[PhantomPhoenix]

Crynn your argument here is like saying that Librarians are bad because Mephy does it better. Which is abysmally untrue (Libbies being bad, not Mephy doing it better). Sure popping 2 raiders is nigh impossible, sure Mephiston is a beast almost beyond compare, no Seth is not bad. Sometimes saving 90 points on your HQ so you can buy that extra Speeder/Attack Bike Squad/Sang Priest is a good idea. I agree Seth is far from the best HQ option in the codex, honestly those nameless librarians are amazing for only 100, but he has his place, and that place is in the middle of a Devastator/Long Fang/Scout squad laughing because they don't fight particularly well.

[Firedrake28]

If you want to beat the crap out of units that suck in combat do it for less points with a Reclusiarch with jump pack. Seth's biggest problem is not ignoring armor saves - it's really freaking hard to make much of a dent in a unit without a ton of support.

[Crynn]

Crynn your argument here is like saying that Librarians are bad because Mephy does it better. Which is abysmally untrue (Libbies being bad, not Mephy doing it better). Sure popping 2 raiders is nigh impossible, sure Mephiston is a beast almost beyond compare, no Seth is not bad. Sometimes saving 90 points on your HQ so you can buy that extra Speeder/Attack Bike Squad/Sang Priest is a good idea. I agree Seth is far from the best HQ option in the codex, honestly those nameless librarians are amazing for only 100, but he has his place, and that place is in the middle of a Devastator/Long Fang/Scout squad laughing because they don't fight particularly well.

 

I don't think you read my last post where I was just saying how good a normal Librarian is. My arguement for anti seth also stems way before my post about meph or a librarian killing vehicles better. Seth like you said is not one of the best HQ choices FOR HIS POINTS and thus I don't believe he is worth it. I think there are a myriad of other ways to spend 160pts in a BA army that are far more effective overall than Seth, such as a standard librarian at 100pts who is amazing. Now weather or not Seth can be good in certain situations is a different question, however under no point limit does he make competitive play because he is not points efficient. Fluffy and fun - Yes, Good in specific situations - sure, one of the better ways to spend 160 pts in a BA codex - absolutely not.

 

I must say I play quite a competitive brand of 40k and I by no means say this should be everyones play style. However, coming from a pure gaming point of view which i believe the question "is Seth worth it?" comes under, he is not 'worth it' in competitive play. I have not lost a game with my BA's in 5th ed (I know that makes me sound like a :cuss and anyone can say that on a forum) but if you decide to believe that statement I will attribute some of this to taking an army that maximises what I get for the point cost, I have a few concessions in my army, one being a Lib dread which I always take just because I love the model i poured 40+ hours into converting and greenstuffing it. I'd like to think I'm a good general which attributes a lot to winning games, but a solid army list only makes it that much easier.

 

I hope you see where I am coming from with my arguement for this thread.

 

Regards

Crynn

[PhantomPhoenix]

Reclusiarch's really need a unit to be worth what you're paying for them, Seth can walk in alone. That's the appeal of him (to me) and that's where he works best (imho). Crynn, I never said you thought Libbies were bad, what I said was that your comparison of Seth to Meph was little different than that of a standard Libbie to Meph. You're also right in saying that competitively he's probably not the right call, but not every game has to be serious hyper competitive, even for a competitive player. Is Seth worth it? Yes, he will do roughly the same damage as the Reclusiarch, a little less due to the reroll to hit on the charge, but in each successive turn when Seth guarantees 6 hits per turn w/ whirlwind Seth's damage stays the same and the reclusiarch's drops off. That said, you're never going to see a lone reclusiarch, huge waste of points (way more than Seth could ever be) so it's not exactly a fair comparison, but I think it gets the point across. Seth ~3 Dead, Reclusiarch ~2.2 Dead (3.5 on the charge). Is Seth the best 160 points in the book? Of course not, but considering that Reclusiarch with Pack (That I think we can agree is worth its points) is 155 and the two of them are just about as equally effective (albeit in different manners) I'm going to have to stick to my guns on this one.

[Crynn]

Reclusiarch's really need a unit to be worth what you're paying for them, Seth can walk in alone. That's the appeal of him (to me) and that's where he works best (imho). Crynn, I never said you thought Libbies were bad, what I said was that your comparison of Seth to Meph was little different than that of a standard Libbie to Meph. You're also right in saying that competitively he's probably not the right call, but not every game has to be serious hyper competitive, even for a competitive player. Is Seth worth it? Yes, he will do roughly the same damage as the Reclusiarch, a little less due to the reroll to hit on the charge, but in each successive turn when Seth guarantees 6 hits per turn w/ whirlwind Seth's damage stays the same and the reclusiarch's drops off. That said, you're never going to see a lone reclusiarch, huge waste of points (way more than Seth could ever be) so it's not exactly a fair comparison, but I think it get's the point across. Seth ~3 Dead, Reclusiarch ~2.2 Dead (3.5 on the charge). Is Seth the best 160 points in the book? Of course not, but considering that Reclusiarch with Pack (That I think we can agree is worth its points) is 155 and the two of them are just about as equally effective (albeit in different manners).

 

I think you just summed up what I said. Not the most effective or nearly the most efefctive can be usable in certain situations? Also seth will only get 6 hits if he runs into a squad alone and then they have to be small bases, anyone who runs seth in solo is risking a lot one hidden claw or fist which is very common and hes toast so youll have to be choosy with what he hits. I also said i do not advocate everyone playing the competitive style of play I do but for answering the question I think it is an appropriate assumption. Any unit can be 'worth its points' if your defininition of that is 'a unit which is not neccasaraly the best or close to the best way to spend the points and will under some specific circumstances be relatively good'. This becomes a very loose interpretation of the question.

 

I will always answer questions based on a competitive stand point if they are relavant to performance based on cost. Is seth an absolute pile of garbage - NO. So if you want to take him go for it, im sure he'll kill something/ I'm sure in some games he'll kill alot, I'm sure that in many other games he'll get hit by a powerfist after killing just one marine. The difference is when I take a 100 point lib or Meph or a sang priest or a chaplain, they will be much more likely to make their points back weather it be killing by the chaplain and the power he gives the squad, the instant death from a str 10 force weapon or the 5+ coversave provided by a lib or the priests FnP and FC. Seth is not one of those units which is very good for his costs, that is why these threads keep coming up and units like libs and priests and etc etc are just accepted as good. You will be able to rationalize anything in a certain specific situation.

[Demoulius]

not sure if its mentioned before but if your afraid of powerfists in base contact; Seth's whirlwind of gore hits MODELS in base contact, meaning you could snipe the mentioned fist before he gets to hit :P i always find that characters (sargeants or otherwise) who only need to take 1 armour/invunerable save fail it (its a stupid trend in our games anyway...) if the model passes the test then so be it, if your lucky that he survives the turn he can try again next turn.

 

if no PF or such is in contact then hes not in so danger anyway. also note that not all armies are MEQ. nids are fairly commmon in our local gaming scene, so are guards and orks. against those armies he simply eats up entire units and you can safely send him in on his own to cash in on the whirlwind of gore :P (might not wanna do it against orks with klaws but otherwise its a relativly safe thing to do :D )

 

tbh i find 160 pts a steal for a character striking at S8 with rending. a pity its not a power weapon but then again then they simply couldnt keep him so cheap :lol:

[Khavos]

No, Seth isn't a force multiplier like alot of things. No he isn't an end all be all beat stick next to Mephiston. But for the points, he get's :D done. I've personally used his Whirlwind of Gore to chop 2 land raiders in half in 1 assault, and cleave a few guys. His nut kick/headbutt is actually great. It's basically a "Ahhhh yer stupid, here's you're reward" bonus damage (And the greatest damn thing in the world Vs Khârn when he rolls a truck load of 1's VS you!)

I view and use Seth from the perspective that, I put my points and emphasis on everything else, and still have a charecterful, and good HQ. The Auto-hit is also nice for dealing with fast Vehicles. You don't need all his attacks to try to hit. Anything fast generally has a low enough armor that Seth can eat it one 1 hit.

I've used a good number of the HQ's thus far, and Seth is the only one I will ALWAYS go back to.

 

To be honest, I've encountered very few situations in list-building where I've gone, "You know, what I really need here is a guy who could theoretically kill two Land Raiders in a turn but will give even Guardsmen their armor saves."

 

If he works for you, great, but he strikes me as a really weird specialist who's worse at mulching troops than pretty much any other option out there, and who will die to Power Fists just as easily as anybody else. He doesn't strike me as a Chapter Master, but maybe a Space Wolves-style upgrade character. Though even then, I'd still take Lukas or Arjac over Seth.

[Gentlemanloser]

The most useless unit in the BA book is probly the elite choice Chaplain. DC can get Lemartes, anyone else is either poorly served by this directly inferior version of the HQ Chaplain, or simply doesnt need one.

 

The Elite Chappy is a god-send if you've used both your HQ slots and want the reroll on the charge of a Chappy to make a killy CC unit, even more killy.

 

I'm planning on adding Meph to my usual Dante/SG list for a laugh, and will add an elite Chappy to Dante+SP+SG to get another PW mini with an Invulnerable Save, and to give the Whoel squad (backed up by a Chapter Banner) full rerolls on the charge, and not just one reroll per mini.

 

Should work great with Dante's hit&run as well. ;)

 

If Mephy turns out to be a big of a white whale, I might even try the Sanguinator, and keep him close to Dante's unit, for an extra +1 attack all round! ;)

 

Go go Chappy Reroll!

[Crynn]

not sure if its mentioned before but if your afraid of powerfists in base contact; Seth's whirlwind of gore hits MODELS in base contact, meaning you could snipe the mentioned fist before he gets to hit ;) i always find that characters (sargeants or otherwise) who only need to take 1 armour/invunerable save fail it (its a stupid trend in our games anyway...) if the model passes the test then so be it, if your lucky that he survives the turn he can try again next turn.

 

if no PF or such is in contact then hes not in so danger anyway. also note that not all armies are MEQ. nids are fairly commmon in our local gaming scene, so are guards and orks. against those armies he simply eats up entire units and you can safely send him in on his own to cash in on the whirlwind of gore :) (might not wanna do it against orks with klaws but otherwise its a relativly safe thing to do :) )

 

tbh i find 160 pts a steal for a character striking at S8 with rending. a pity its not a power weapon but then again then they simply couldnt keep him so cheap :lol:

 

You may hit all models around you but once it gets to wounds your opponent still allocates them which means that idea doesnt work.

[Crynn]

No, Seth isn't a force multiplier like alot of things. No he isn't an end all be all beat stick next to Mephiston. But for the points, he get's :) done. I've personally used his Whirlwind of Gore to chop 2 land raiders in half in 1 assault, and cleave a few guys. His nut kick/headbutt is actually great. It's basically a "Ahhhh yer stupid, here's you're reward" bonus damage (And the greatest damn thing in the world Vs Khârn when he rolls a truck load of 1's VS you!)

I view and use Seth from the perspective that, I put my points and emphasis on everything else, and still have a charecterful, and good HQ. The Auto-hit is also nice for dealing with fast Vehicles. You don't need all his attacks to try to hit. Anything fast generally has a low enough armor that Seth can eat it one 1 hit.

I've used a good number of the HQ's thus far, and Seth is the only one I will ALWAYS go back to.

 

To be honest, I've encountered very few situations in list-building where I've gone, "You know, what I really need here is a guy who could theoretically kill two Land Raiders in a turn but will give even Guardsmen their armor saves."

 

If he works for you, great, but he strikes me as a really weird specialist who's worse at mulching troops than pretty much any other option out there, and who will die to Power Fists just as easily as anybody else. He doesn't strike me as a Chapter Master, but maybe a Space Wolves-style upgrade character. Though even then, I'd still take Lukas or Arjac over Seth.

 

Agreed

 

 

The most useless unit in the BA book is probly the elite choice Chaplain. DC can get Lemartes, anyone else is either poorly served by this directly inferior version of the HQ Chaplain, or simply doesnt need one.

 

The Elite Chappy is a god-send if you've used both your HQ slots and want the reroll on the charge of a Chappy to make a killy CC unit, even more killy.

 

I'm planning on adding Meph to my usual Dante/SG list for a laugh, and will add an elite Chappy to Dante+SP+SG to get another PW mini with an Invulnerable Save, and to give the Whoel squad (backed up by a Chapter Banner) full rerolls on the charge, and not just one reroll per mini.

 

Should work great with Dante's hit&run as well. :lol:

 

If Mephy turns out to be a big of a white whale, I might even try the Sanguinator, and keep him close to Dante's unit, for an extra +1 attack all round! :)

 

Go go Chappy Reroll!

 

And agreed

[Grey Mage]

If you want to beat the crap out of units that suck in combat do it for less points with a Reclusiarch with jump pack. Seth's biggest problem is not ignoring armor saves - it's really freaking hard to make much of a dent in a unit without a ton of support.

Thats true for any character these days.

 

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

[Crynn]

If you want to beat the crap out of units that suck in combat do it for less points with a Reclusiarch with jump pack. Seth's biggest problem is not ignoring armor saves - it's really freaking hard to make much of a dent in a unit without a ton of support.

Thats true for any character these days.

 

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Unless they have 4+ armor and one powerclaw.

[Mudpuppet]

he only has 3 attacks 4 on the charge

 

He has 4 attacks dude, 5 on the charge.

 

You may hit all models around you but once it gets to wounds your opponent still allocates them which means that idea doesnt work.

 

Are you sure an opponent can allocate wounds to other models if the attacks are made against specific models? That doesnt sound right. I looked in the rulebook and i cant find anything that indicates your wrong but it sounds so daft...

 

Mudpuppet

[Firedrake28]

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Yeah, I did that once.

 

In every other game he got smashed in the face with a power fist or avoided and I felt like a tool for not taking a Reclusiarch, another Librarian or spending his points on something else.

 

For competitive play Seth isn't worth his points. Annoying (as I play Flesh Tearers and would love to use him in as many games as possible) but true.

[surelock]

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Yeah, I did that once.

 

In every other game he got smashed in the face with a power fist or avoided and I felt like a tool for not taking a Reclusiarch, another Librarian or spending his points on something else.

 

For competitive play Seth isn't worth his points. Annoying (as I play Flesh Tearers and would love to use him in as many games as possible) but true.

 

Aye, I am playing Flesh Tearers as well and I even converted up my own Seth model (for a painting/conversion contest and he took 1st place) but I really am not going to run for him tournaments, but I have used him in a funsy pick-up style game. He is not terrible as many would have you believe but he is not great either and a libby, chappy or sang. priest are usually going to be better choices and 2 of those even save you an hq slot and all will save some points.

[Crynn]

he only has 3 attacks 4 on the charge

 

He has 4 attacks dude, 5 on the charge.

 

You may hit all models around you but once it gets to wounds your opponent still allocates them which means that idea doesnt work.

 

Are you sure an opponent can allocate wounds to other models if the attacks are made against specific models? That doesnt sound right. I looked in the rulebook and i cant find anything that indicates your wrong but it sounds so daft...

 

Mudpuppet

 

Sorry you are correct he has 4 attack not 3 I was thinking of just a captain, however this makes little difference to my evaluation of him.

 

I had a look at the rules and unfortunately I am correct even though I agree with you it's stupid but then again plenty of te rools are a bit silly, like 10 orks giving another 10 orks cover saves but for some reason the orks in front are invincible and thus dont take dmg from being hit. It's silly but it aint a perfect system and I think to avoid arguements it's best to stick to the rules as written.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Tamwulf]

Wound allocation is a fine art that can really, really be abused by a smart opponent (see Thunderwolf Cavalry).

 

I haven't looked this up yet, but let's say Seth gets surrounded by 3 regular SM, 1 Sgt w/P-fist, and 1 SM w/ Meltagun all in base to base contact. There are 5 more regular SM from the same squad within 2" of the ones in base contact. If he scores a single wound vs. each model in base contact (assuming he wounds them all), wouldn't the 3 regular SM wounds be allocated amongst the 8 regular SM (they are all equipped the same), 1 wound against the P-fist, and 1 wound against the Melta? And as those wounds are allocated to specific models, those models have to take armor saves?