Is Seth worth it?

[Grey Mage]

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Yeah, I did that once.

 

In every other game he got smashed in the face with a power fist or avoided and I felt like a tool for not taking a Reclusiarch, another Librarian or spending his points on something else.

 

For competitive play Seth isn't worth his points. Annoying (as I play Flesh Tearers and would love to use him in as many games as possible) but true.

You cant get one guy into CC with some orks? Orks? The army thats whole goal is to get into CC with everything you have and smash it?

 

Sorry, I dont understand how its possible. Was he on foot, alone, and starting in a corner as part of the witness protection program?

[Mudpuppet]

Wound allocation is a fine art that can really, really be abused by a smart opponent (see Thunderwolf Cavalry).

 

I haven't looked this up yet, but let's say Seth gets surrounded by 3 regular SM, 1 Sgt w/P-fist, and 1 SM w/ Meltagun all in base to base contact. There are 5 more regular SM from the same squad within 2" of the ones in base contact. If he scores a single wound vs. each model in base contact (assuming he wounds them all), wouldn't the 3 regular SM wounds be allocated amongst the 8 regular SM (they are all equipped the same), 1 wound against the P-fist, and 1 wound against the Melta? And as those wounds are allocated to specific models, those models have to take armor saves?

 

I think thats the way it should be yes, but myself and Crynn cannot seem to find anything in rules to back it up.

 

Mudpuppet

[Brother Nathan]

Id suggest that seth should be nowhee near powerfists. Say hes with a 5man squad, he shouldnt be at the front where if something charges it will be able to hit him with the fist. He should, as all characters really, be used as we have discussed before about the priests. In the middle of the unit. sure seths probably should be at the front, but if he is he will be on the end of a powerfist eventually. and no he shouldnt be behind them cause hell never get into the fight. In the midle with men al round him, if they charge and the opponent has a fist model then stick a regular guy in base with the fist, or even the sarge as he will be removed last just to stop the fist consolidating to attack seth. Then let seth at the rest of the unit. call it locking or some such. meanwhile seth can get stuck into the core of th rest of the unit while the fist is stuck in base with one of your other men and cant move or redirect his attacks. Well thats how id run him if i ran him and he somehow got his rhino destroyed and then charged...

[Spagunk]

The key word regarding his blood storm effect is models. In every example, models refer exactly as stated: individual models. So if you have the PF guy in BtB contact with Seth, he will hit that model. Given that the individual model is hit, I will take that to mean that the wound cannot be allocated to anyone else regardless of conditions as the model took the damage, not the unit. This distinction is visible in other cases where effects are outlined as being against units. If the intention is that the unit is affected, it will clearly state that it is versus the unit. If it says model, it is the model. Essentially, Seth's rule was specifically outline so that independent characters cannot allocate wounds against them to the squad in which they are hiding. The draw back i suppose is that hidden figures cannot hide from the wrath of Seth unless they stay out of BtB contact. This is likely why Seth is a little more expensive than he should be.

 

Not only that but they make it clear what the definition of model vs. unit is in the big book.

[Demoulius]

The key word regarding his blood storm effect is models. In every example, models refer exactly as stated: individual models. So if you have the PF guy in BtB contact with Seth, he will hit that model. Given that the individual model is hit, I will take that to mean that the wound cannot be allocated to anyone else regardless of conditions as the model took the damage, not the unit. This distinction is visible in other cases where effects are outlined as being against units. If the intention is that the unit is affected, it will clearly state that it is versus the unit. If it says model, it is the model. Essentially, Seth's rule was specifically outline so that independent characters cannot allocate wounds against them to the squad in which they are hiding. The draw back i suppose is that hidden figures cannot hide from the wrath of Seth unless they stay out of BtB contact. This is likely why Seth is a little more expensive than he should be.

 

Not only that but they make it clear what the definition of model vs. unit is in the big book.

you summed it up better then i ever could, thats exaactly what i thought it meant (im just terrible at explaining stuff not in my native tongue :lol:)

 

same with JOTWW, that can be used to snipe models right? seems akin to this, except that this is used in combat.

 

thats how i think it works though, not sure if wound allocation interupts :ermm: the way the new rulebook was written was to stop people from sniping characters and sargeants, so im kinda unsure on why they would then bring back effects that allow only certain armies to do the very thing that they changed the rulebook for to take out of the game :sweat:

[Brother Nathan]

i disagree as i think its worderd that way so that it doosent mean he whole unit is hit (though how fun would that be) the wounds would still be dispensed accross the unit. what you are suggesting would knock him into the 200 points bracket

[Demoulius]

the reason i think why it would like that is that the description of the special rule is akin to JOTWW with regards to who is hit (could be wrong here, its been a while since ive held the codex in my hands)

 

unless off course my local store plays the power wrong and you cant snipe with that power either then i appoligize :lol: but seems to be that theyre alike with regards to whom they hit...

[Sir Blayse]

Personally Seth is one of my favorite units. He strikes fear into my opponents just knowing that he is on the board. I stick him in a LR with a Sanguinary Priest and and 8 man RAS without JP's. Give the Sgt a powerfist, and put a meltagun on one of the members. It is point heavy, but wrecks whatever it hits. The SP will help keep the squad on the table and help you wrack up the killpoints.

[Crynn]

i disagree as i think its worderd that way so that it doosent mean he whole unit is hit (though how fun would that be) the wounds would still be dispensed accross the unit. what you are suggesting would knock him into the 200 points bracket

 

Lol 200 point bracket! yes that ability would definately be worth 40 poins haha. I think a hunterkiller should be a 30 point upgrade too. As for Seth hitting specific model and thus damging them specifically I think thats what they mean, I'm just not sure if I can get the rules to back it up. I don't have my rulebook on me which makes it hard. The BRB does make mention to the difference between units and models and Seth does hit models however wound allocation lets models wounded be split by the reciever. Without a rule book I can't put a RAW ruling on this so I will bow out of this particular debate as if I aint 100% on something I won't argue it.

I would love for someone to work out a RAW for this.

 

As for the person who said 'stick seth in the middle of the unit completely surrounded so that the fists dont hit him and just move another model into combat with the fist' there are just so many things wrong with this. Firstly, if you put Seth or any independent chapacter in the middle of a unit surrounded he will never be able to fight in the first round of combat EVER! independent characters always move first in the assault phase so if he's surrounded he cant move and therefore doesnt make combat, so your saying Seth is best when he doesnt fight? I agree at least that way he isnt the worlds easiest 160 pt kill point to a powerfist. Also as for 'just move a model into contact with the fist' You don't choose anything in the assault phase it is all predermined, closest to closest unengaged model, If you want to fight combat in any specific manner you must move your models in the movement phase in a specific way in order to get what models you want to fight what, the way you want. If you are being charged you have no choice it is all up to the attaching player and how they move in their movement phase.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Crynn]

Personally Seth is one of my favorite units. He strikes fear into my opponents just knowing that he is on the board. I stick him in a LR with a Sanguinary Priest and and 8 man RAS without JP's. Give the Sgt a powerfist, and put a meltagun on one of the members. It is point heavy, but wrecks whatever it hits. The SP will help keep the squad on the table and help you wrack up the killpoints.

 

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

[Grey Mage]

Personally Seth is one of my favorite units. He strikes fear into my opponents just knowing that he is on the board. I stick him in a LR with a Sanguinary Priest and and 8 man RAS without JP's. Give the Sgt a powerfist, and put a meltagun on one of the members. It is point heavy, but wrecks whatever it hits. The SP will help keep the squad on the table and help you wrack up the killpoints.

 

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

They would if they had wraithlords, or carnifexes.

[Brother Nathan]

As for the person who said 'stick seth in the middle of the unit completely surrounded so that the fists dont hit him and just move another model into combat with the fist' there are just so many things wrong with this. Firstly, if you put Seth or any independent chapacter in the middle of a unit surrounded he will never be able to fight in the first round of combat EVER! independent characters always move first in the assault phase so if he's surrounded he cant move and therefore doesnt make combat, so your saying Seth is best when he doesnt fight? I agree at least that way he isnt the worlds easiest 160 pt kill point to a powerfist. Also as for 'just move a model into contact with the fist' You don't choose anything in the assault phase it is all predermined, closest to closest unengaged model, If you want to fight combat in any specific manner you must move your models in the movement phase in a specific way in order to get what models you want to fight what, the way you want. If you are being charged you have no choice it is all up to the attaching player and how they move in their movement phase.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

actually it doeswork, and you can still get seth into base to base with ease...oponent charges, getting into base tobase with some of the unit but not surrounding it unless youve done something incredibly wrong. then we got to move unengaged models, such as seth into base to base up to 6 inches... so place seth in base to base away from the powerfist within 6inches of where he was... and is it not only the closest model that st move straight... when you charge.(then again i could be wrong as i havent been readig up on my 40k as ive been learning fantasy)

[Firedrake28]

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Yeah, I did that once.

 

In every other game he got smashed in the face with a power fist or avoided and I felt like a tool for not taking a Reclusiarch, another Librarian or spending his points on something else.

 

For competitive play Seth isn't worth his points. Annoying (as I play Flesh Tearers and would love to use him in as many games as possible) but true.

You cant get one guy into CC with some orks? Orks? The army thats whole goal is to get into CC with everything you have and smash it?

 

Sorry, I dont understand how its possible. Was he on foot, alone, and starting in a corner as part of the witness protection program?

 

=/

 

Seriously? Read closer. I quoted "Seth can walk through Nobz", replied that I'd done it once (walked through a unit of Nobz) and then stated that in every other situation he gets avoided or insta-killed. I didn't say anything about not being able to get Seth into close combat with Orks.

[Sir Blayse]

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

 

Hmm, my flesh tearers don't use scouts. It's all RAS, DC, and will soon include Assault Termies. Vehicles are lasbacks with one LR command vehicle.

My army doesn't sit in one spot so they would never get to shoot.

[Captain Idaho]

As for the person who said 'stick seth in the middle of the unit completely surrounded so that the fists dont hit him and just move another model into combat with the fist' there are just so many things wrong with this. Firstly, if you put Seth or any independent chapacter in the middle of a unit surrounded he will never be able to fight in the first round of combat EVER! independent characters always move first in the assault phase so if he's surrounded he cant move and therefore doesnt make combat, so your saying Seth is best when he doesnt fight? I agree at least that way he isnt the worlds easiest 160 pt kill point to a powerfist. Also as for 'just move a model into contact with the fist' You don't choose anything in the assault phase it is all predermined, closest to closest unengaged model, If you want to fight combat in any specific manner you must move your models in the movement phase in a specific way in order to get what models you want to fight what, the way you want. If you are being charged you have no choice it is all up to the attaching player and how they move in their movement phase.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

Yes independent characters move first in pile ins and reacting to assaults, but the only rule is they have to make base contact with an opponent. It's not to hard to put them nearer a model without a powerfist.

 

It's not predetermineWhen it comes to assaulting, there is only a stipulation that the nearest model makes contact with the nearest enemy model, after that it is fair game to move in any order you like. This means it is quite easy to put a single model in contact with that Power fist to prevent it moving to intercept Seth, or even move you models in such a way that they block the power fist owner from making contact with Seth.

 

pg34.

 

Seth is quite hard, no doubt about it, as clever placement in a unit and assaults makes him hard to kill.

[Khavos]

Seth is quite hard, no doubt about it, as clever placement in a unit and assaults makes him hard to kill.

 

I don't have my 'dex with me, but why would that be more true for Seth than any other IC?

 

 

Either way, S8 hits at initiative become a lot less great when they don't ignore armor.

[Grey Mage]

But, that being said a PWs a bit of a waste against boyz, but Seth can walk through nobz.

 

Yeah, I did that once.

 

In every other game he got smashed in the face with a power fist or avoided and I felt like a tool for not taking a Reclusiarch, another Librarian or spending his points on something else.

 

For competitive play Seth isn't worth his points. Annoying (as I play Flesh Tearers and would love to use him in as many games as possible) but true.

You cant get one guy into CC with some orks? Orks? The army thats whole goal is to get into CC with everything you have and smash it?

 

Sorry, I dont understand how its possible. Was he on foot, alone, and starting in a corner as part of the witness protection program?

 

 

=/

 

Seriously? Read closer. I quoted "Seth can walk through Nobz", replied that I'd done it once (walked through a unit of Nobz) and then stated that in every other situation he gets avoided or insta-killed. I didn't say anything about not being able to get Seth into close combat with Orks.

Sorry, looks to me like Youd written it worked in one game only, and that from then on out it just didnt because he died or didnt get used. My bad.

[Demoulius]

Personally Seth is one of my favorite units. He strikes fear into my opponents just knowing that he is on the board. I stick him in a LR with a Sanguinary Priest and and 8 man RAS without JP's. Give the Sgt a powerfist, and put a meltagun on one of the members. It is point heavy, but wrecks whatever it hits. The SP will help keep the squad on the table and help you wrack up the killpoints.

 

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

why the high and mighty remarks? if he doesent work for you fine but no need to say hes useless and unit x is useless as well. every unit has its uses and every unit can be good if used properly and/or you get good rolls.

 

the unit has moved from the original question and has moved on to flaming and other side tracked remarks....

 

il summarize (feel free to add anything if i missed it) and perhaps we can leave it at that before it becomes on the receiving end of a melta....

 

pros:

-cheap for a special character

-hes S8

-he has rending

-he hits opponents with S4 on the result of a 1 to hit against him

-can hit all models in b2b (who also hit automaticly) since he has 4 attacks base and his weapons is 2 handed this can easily become a great option to do some damage. or hit vehicles who moved flat out for example.

-he has 4 wounds.

 

cons:

-his weapon isent a PW. while it can rend that only happens on a 6 to wound...even guardsmen could save against his attacks, if your unlucky enough.

-his WS and I are the same as a bland captain. while this is in itself isent a bad thing its not very special either.

-T4 with an 4+ invul save....1 hit with a powerfist can mean hes biting the dust.

-isent a force multiplier like a chaplain or a librarian. hes purely meant to kill stuff and since he doesent have a powerweapon...well....lets just say that if your up against PA or better he probably wont do very much...

 

imho hes a flavour character. hes not bad at all but he isent the best choice to take either.

[Sir Blayse]

in most cases after hitting the opponent with the LR's guns, followed by the RAS weapons, then the assault, I find the opponent is not going to have a fist to hit back with. also, i don't plan to run my assault group into a terminator unit. i will try and shoot those guys from a distance and out pace them if possible.

 

seth is not the best option out there, but for his cost I think he is well worth it. i just enjoy watching the opponents do everything possible to try and stay away from the big chainsword guy. in most cases outside of SM vs. SM he will shine.

[Zid]

after reading this thread I'm pondering running him against the typical orks, nids, eldar, and dark eldar I face... autohitting a str 8 weapon against a waveserpent seems pretty rad, never thought of it!

 

I think hes purely situational, but could work really well if used correctly. And as others pointed out, you move IC's into B2B first during an assault.... so why not move seth on the other side of the combat away from the PF? I do it all the time with my priests if my opponent doesn't charge close enough to get into B2B with it. Like anything else, its about playing smarter, not harder!

[Brother Nathan]

exatly, it dosent work as well with priests because theya re as hard to kill as any marine in their bubble but its the same concept, and as long as something els is in base to base with the fist he cant move it whilst seth can spill his wounds over onto the fist...

[Crynn]

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

 

Hmm, my flesh tearers don't use scouts. It's all RAS, DC, and will soon include Assault Termies. Vehicles are lasbacks with one LR command vehicle.

My army doesn't sit in one spot so they would never get to shoot.

 

Haha sorry mate I was being sarcastic, I know its hard to get across over a forum.

 

Seth is quite hard, no doubt about it, as clever placement in a unit and assaults makes him hard to kill.

 

I don't have my 'dex with me, but why would that be more true for Seth than any other IC?

 

 

Either way, S8 hits at initiative become a lot less great when they don't ignore armor.

 

Completely agreed

 

Personally Seth is one of my favorite units. He strikes fear into my opponents just knowing that he is on the board. I stick him in a LR with a Sanguinary Priest and and 8 man RAS without JP's. Give the Sgt a powerfist, and put a meltagun on one of the members. It is point heavy, but wrecks whatever it hits. The SP will help keep the squad on the table and help you wrack up the killpoints.

 

Except for any other Deathstar unit of equal point value, and terminators, seths weeapon also doesnt get bonuses for furious charge other than initiative which also sucks. Why fears Seth? Do your opponents fear the wrath of your sniper scout squads too?

why the high and mighty remarks? if he doesent work for you fine but no need to say hes useless and unit x is useless as well. every unit has its uses and every unit can be good if used properly and/or you get good rolls.

 

the unit has moved from the original question and has moved on to flaming and other side tracked remarks....

 

il summarize (feel free to add anything if i missed it) and perhaps we can leave it at that before it becomes on the receiving end of a melta....

 

pros:

-cheap for a special character

-hes S8

-he has rending

-he hits opponents with S4 on the result of a 1 to hit against him

-can hit all models in b2b (who also hit automaticly) since he has 4 attacks base and his weapons is 2 handed this can easily become a great option to do some damage. or hit vehicles who moved flat out for example.

-he has 4 wounds.

 

cons:

-his weapon isent a PW. while it can rend that only happens on a 6 to wound...even guardsmen could save against his attacks, if your unlucky enough.

-his WS and I are the same as a bland captain. while this is in itself isent a bad thing its not very special either.

-T4 with an 4+ invul save....1 hit with a powerfist can mean hes biting the dust.

-isent a force multiplier like a chaplain or a librarian. hes purely meant to kill stuff and since he doesent have a powerweapon...well....lets just say that if your up against PA or better he probably wont do very much...

 

imho hes a flavour character. hes not bad at all but he isent the best choice to take either.

 

 

The con's you have listed FAR outweight the positive hence is a bad character. It's not about high or mighty or that other people have found he works. Like I said in certain situations he is good but there are just too many that crop up in the average game where he is sub par for his points. If you know who you are playing like nids or orks or guard sure he can be effective. But seeing as 2/3rds of players out there play MEQ or equivilant he does not cut it, my arguement comes purely from a competitive all rounders list which I dont advocate as the only way to build lists or to play, but for my tournament rundown for his performance or lack there of I think most turny players will agree.

 

in most cases after hitting the opponent with the LR's guns, followed by the RAS weapons, then the assault, I find the opponent is not going to have a fist to hit back with. also, i don't plan to run my assault group into a terminator unit. i will try and shoot those guys from a distance and out pace them if possible.

 

seth is not the best option out there, but for his cost I think he is well worth it. i just enjoy watching the opponents do everything possible to try and stay away from the big chainsword guy. in most cases outside of SM vs. SM he will shine.

 

Agreed

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[Captain Idaho]

I don't have my 'dex with me, but why would that be more true for Seth than any other IC?

 

 

Either way, S8 hits at initiative become a lot less great when they don't ignore armor.

 

He has 4 wounds, a good invulnerable save, strikes at Initiative 5 with 4 attacks at S8 and rending(!) and has his 2 special rules. He is a little tougher than most other ICs, but only 160pts. Makes him a tough cookie inside a unit with access to power weapons.

 

It's a case of his weaknesses being covered by the unit he is with.

[Demoulius]

The con's you have listed FAR outweight the positive hence is a bad characte

r

 

Crynn, out of the 4 cons that i listed 2 of those are shared by just about every HQ we can take as well as other IC's from other armies so thats hardly the a reason why he would be bad.

 

-4+ invul save is the best they get (aside from the sanguinor, whos a great deal more expensive. or a storm shield captain, who has less hiting power because of it)

-WS6 is still the same as normal captains, higher then chaplains and librarians and compared to the other special characters who have a higher WS hes a great deal more affordable. the normal I is also decent.

-T4 beeing a weakness? well it is a con concerning the amount of powerfistst that you might face but mind you it is a con that ALL our characters have. even Dante (and if im not mistaken) the Sanguinor and Curbolo. only Mephiston has far better stats and you pay a handfull for it.

 

look from a pure tournament standpoint i can see how hes not the best character. but the fact that there are better options doesent mean hes a bad one.

 

as for people stating he has no power weapon, that is like we mentioned a few times before correct but that excluding him as an option is still far from the truth. 1 failed save on a T4 character and hes instant killed. i see enough armour saves failed to think those are pretty goods odds off killing a character. (or 1 rending hit, invul saves are generally harder to pass)

 

the fact that he isent a force multiplier...well...there is a way of working around that. we got enough elite options for support (chaplains, sangpriests) to fill that hole. our hq character can't give FNP or FC to the units they are with or make their units fearless (liby can give them pref enemy though) which, ive found in my games far outweights the hitting power that a single character can do.

 

lists can be build without relying on characters killing power alone.

[Khavos]

I don't have my 'dex with me, but why would that be more true for Seth than any other IC?

 

 

Either way, S8 hits at initiative become a lot less great when they don't ignore armor.

 

He has 4 wounds, a good invulnerable save, strikes at Initiative 5 with 4 attacks at S8 and rending(!) and has his 2 special rules. He is a little tougher than most other ICs, but only 160pts. Makes him a tough cookie inside a unit with access to power weapons.

 

It's a case of his weaknesses being covered by the unit he is with.

 

It must be a matter of preference, as I just don't see it.

 

An extra wound is nice, sure, but let's face it: you need that extra wound if you can't reliably cut your way through even IG. Rending's cool I guess, but I wouldn't want to take it over completely ignoring armor in the first place.

 

My point was the argument that he's good if you play shenanigans with where you place him in a unit applies just as easily to a cheaper vanilla dual LC Captain. There are killier HQ units in the BA 'dex, there are tougher HQ units, and there are better force multiplier HQ units - there are a few that do all three. Simply being cheap isn't a good enough reason to take him if an even cheaper option would work better in most cases, which I believe it would.