Is Seth worth it?

[Khavos]

-T4 beeing a weakness? well it is a con concerning the amount of powerfistst that you might face but mind you it is a con that ALL our characters have. even Dante (and if im not mistaken) the Sanguinor and Curbolo. only Mephiston has far better stats and you pay a handfull for it.

 

I'd consider T4 being a weakness just looking at the Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love. Sanguinor is T4, but at least he has EW.

 

lists can be build without relying on characters killing power alone.

 

That's very true, but if an HQ isn't bringing killing power to the table, he better be bringing something else. Seth doesn't. He's not a force multiplier, he's not very killy.

 

Librarians are good HQs. Mephiston is usually a good HQ. Dante is situationally a good HQ. I'm still trying my best to make the Sanguinor work. Beyond that, BAs get royally screwed in the HQ department, and Seth's just a symptom of it. If Seth works for you, great; I've always been an advocate of suboptimal choices if there's a reason people like them. But the question was, "Is Seth worth it?" And the answer appears to be no, as there are other options that do what little he does better, and some are arguably cheaper - unless you desperately need an HQ who could theoretically take out two Land Raiders in one round of assault if the stars align and it's a full moon and you've got a winning lottery ticket in your wallet.

[the jeske]

Sanguinor is T4, but at least he has EW.

but does he cost 160 pts ? even with a rhino transport bough seth is still cheaper.

 

And the answer appears to be no, as there are other options that do what little he does better, and some are arguably cheaper

which one ? sang costs more. mefo costs more. a chapy is cheap and does buff a squad , but seth while situational does kill stuff. considering BAs run priests he can ID any t4 dude before he strikes back and with the number of attacks he has there is agood chance for that to happen[while chapies have problems witht the number of attacks ].

 

Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love.

most sm hq no EW , nid HQ no EW, IG hq no EW , SW can have logan or a lord with eternal , but for that they have to take a high cost lord [and those are still 3w and die like any t4 3w guy to normal number of attacks].

other armies dont have it at all. chaos doesnt have it , orks dont have it and both were desinged with 5th ed in mind.

[Anpu42]

Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love.

Yes we can take it, Once and then we have to give up any other Special Attacks, or Synergy Bonus for that Character or Take Logan that cost more than a Land Raider.

[Khavos]

Sanguinor is T4, but at least he has EW.

but does he cost 160 pts ? even with a rhino transport bough seth is still cheaper.

 

And massively less useful.

 

And the answer appears to be no, as there are other options that do what little he does better, and some are arguably cheaper

which one ? sang costs more. mefo costs more. a chapy is cheap and does buff a squad , but seth while situational does kill stuff. considering BAs run priests he can ID any t4 dude before he strikes back and with the number of attacks he has there is agood chance for that to happen[while chapies have problems witht the number of attacks ].

 

Well, a dual LC Captain, for one. I just ran a little informal mathhammer comparison, and gave Seth a rather generous assumption that four 1s would always be rolled against him. Even with that rather high bonus, the 2LC Captain is better against MEQ, even against GEQ, and about .1 wound inflicted behind against TH/SS Terminators - which, by the way, I still assumed would roll four 1s when attacking Seth, so the 2LC Captain is, realistically, better. And, just for the heck of it, I threw them both at the Swarmlord. Seth is actually about three times as good against it than the LC Captain, but three times crap is still crap, and neither one of them is likely to inflict a wound before they're IDed.

 

Now, granted, what's not taken into account is Seth's ability to throw an attack on everything in base contact with him, but I don't see that winding up making all that much difference.

 

Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love.

most sm hq no EW , nid HQ no EW, IG hq no EW , SW can have logan or a lord with eternal , but for that they have to take a high cost lord [and those are still 3w and die like any t4 3w guy to normal number of attacks].

other armies dont have it at all. chaos doesnt have it , orks dont have it and both were desinged with 5th ed in mind.

 

Nids don't exactly need it, as they have all of one HQ unit under T5 if memory serves. Orks may not have it, but they're not exactly a new codex. Whenever Chaos gets a new book, I'm certain we'll see it - hell, I bet we see it here and there with DE. Point is, T4 with a 4+ invuln is becoming comparatively less durable for the sorts of situations you're likely to throw a pure CC character like Seth into.

 

Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love.

Yes we can take it, Once and then we have to give up any other Special Attacks, or Synergy Bonus for that Character or Take Logan that cost more than a Land Raider.

 

What?

[Anpu42]

Each Saga Can be chosen only Once so you only get to Choose One for your Wolf Lord, What do you Choose?

-Saga of the Bear/Enternal Warrior [Only Logan and Arjac gets it for Free]

-Saga of the Beast Slayer/Favored Enemies Walkers and MCs

-Saga of Magestly: 6" Re-Roll Failed Moral {Synergy} The Cheepest other way to get in a Ven Dred all of the others cost 200+ Points]

-Saga of the Warrior Born: Add last Assualt phases Wounts into more Attacks [Ragnar Has it Free]

-Saga of the Wolfkin: Make Fenrensian Wolves Better {Synergy}

[Demoulius]

-T4 beeing a weakness? well it is a con concerning the amount of powerfistst that you might face but mind you it is a con that ALL our characters have. even Dante (and if im not mistaken) the Sanguinor and Curbolo. only Mephiston has far better stats and you pay a handfull for it.

 

I'd consider T4 being a weakness just looking at the Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love. Sanguinor is T4, but at least he has EW.

 

lists can be build without relying on characters killing power alone.

 

That's very true, but if an HQ isn't bringing killing power to the table, he better be bringing something else. Seth doesn't. He's not a force multiplier, he's not very killy.

 

Librarians are good HQs. Mephiston is usually a good HQ. Dante is situationally a good HQ. I'm still trying my best to make the Sanguinor work. Beyond that, BAs get royally screwed in the HQ department, and Seth's just a symptom of it. If Seth works for you, great; I've always been an advocate of suboptimal choices if there's a reason people like them. But the question was, "Is Seth worth it?" And the answer appears to be no, as there are other options that do what little he does better, and some are arguably cheaper - unless you desperately need an HQ who could theoretically take out two Land Raiders in one round of assault if the stars align and it's a full moon and you've got a winning lottery ticket in your wallet.

the deal with Seth is that his killing power isent guarranteed which i think is why people think hes useless. the way i look at it is just this. he hits most things on a 3+ (worst case a 4+) and wounds those on a 2+ as well, including MC's. if theres one thing that i had trouble with its Mc's (since my PF's tend to fail at the times i need them the most ^_^) so i can see him as having alot of potential.

 

i did some dice rolling yesterday of seth against a normal liby without any of the close combat powers. yea...the liby kept making his saves and instant deathed him with his force weapon the first time, second time seth killed him round 1 (1 failed save out of 3) and the third time both kept fluffing their attacks for 3 rounds :) its by no stretch of the inmagination mathhammer or such but it goes to show how import the rending (and/or your opponent failing a save) can be.

 

we already came to this conclusion a few times. hes not the best char to take. is he bad? i dont think so, if he focuses on characters he can force a fair number of wounds and if 1 is failed (and they arent T5 base and or IW) they bite the dust right there. hes just wasted against troops ;) send him at IC's and MC's and he should kick some ass :(

[Khavos]

the deal with Seth is that his killing power isent guarranteed which i think is why people think hes useless. the way i look at it is just this. he hits most things on a 3+ (worst case a 4+) and wounds those on a 2+ as well, including MC's. if theres one thing that i had trouble with its Mc's (since my PF's tend to fail at the times i need them the most ;)) so i can see him as having alot of potential.

 

i did some dice rolling yesterday of seth against a normal liby without any of the close combat powers. yea...the liby kept making his saves and instant deathed him with his force weapon the first time, second time seth killed him round 1 (1 failed save out of 3) and the third time both kept fluffing their attacks for 3 rounds ;) its by no stretch of the inmagination mathhammer or such but it goes to show how import the rending (and/or your opponent failing a save) can be.

 

we already came to this conclusion a few times. hes not the best char to take. is he bad? i dont think so, if he focuses on characters he can force a fair number of wounds and if 1 is failed (and they arent T5 base and or IW) they bite the dust right there. hes just wasted against troops ;) send him at IC's and MC's and he should kick some ass :D

 

Being able to ID some vanilla-equivalent HQs is pretty much the only thing he has going for him, though.

 

Also, why on earth does he not have access to a jump pack?

[Mezkh]

Well, a dual LC Captain, for one. I just ran a little informal mathhammer comparison, and gave Seth a rather generous assumption that four 1s would always be rolled against him. Even with that rather high bonus, the 2LC Captain is better against MEQ, even against GEQ,

 

This is just ridiculously disingenuous. Why are you forming an argument basing Seth's worth on fighting MEQs and GEQs when you (should) have a whole army of useful units that can dust those fairly easily and more cost effectively.

 

Str 8 striking at initiative 5/6 is like gold dust, and when everyone is spamming vehicles and invul saves, not being a power weapon is a small thing. How's a LC Captain do against those Dreadnoughts, Armoured Sentinels, Other vehicles that have moved >6", T6 and up models, models with invul saves, Cybork nobs, swarms, other models with multi wounds, and so on.

 

BA don't have null zone, opponent's aren't going to be rerolling their passed Invul saves. So every 2/3 of a hit not ignoring armour is a small price to pay for keeping an HQ with Str 8 at 5/6 init and the ability to auto hit things to the sub 200 point lvl.

[Brother Nathan]

wit the abundance of shorm sheild characters wolves and normal marines have....well the point can be moot...

[Khavos]

Well, a dual LC Captain, for one. I just ran a little informal mathhammer comparison, and gave Seth a rather generous assumption that four 1s would always be rolled against him. Even with that rather high bonus, the 2LC Captain is better against MEQ, even against GEQ,

 

This is just ridiculously disingenuous. Why are you forming an argument basing Seth's worth on fighting MEQs and GEQs when you (should) have a whole army of useful units that can dust those fairly easily and more cost effectively.

 

I didn't. I also included one of the most common rock units and an MC. He's not better against the rock unit, and while he's better against the MC, he's still simply going to get IDed out before he does any damage to it.

 

Yes, he's certainly better against vehicles. Which I guess is fantastic if you really need a CC HQ that only brings that specialty to the table. I rarely find myself in such a situation.

 

I'll run him against some cybork nobs and TWC if it'll make you happy, though. I think you're going to be surprised by the results.

[Demoulius]

the swarmlord is hardly an oppenent that a single Ic of ours can take. imho only Mephi and/or the sanguinor could take him on in a 1 on 1 fight even remotly safely. if you pit other characters against him its just asking for the death of your character....

 

i still fail to see how the universal toughness, armour save and invunerable save that most characters share is a reason not to take him <_<

[Anpu42]

I'll run him against some cybork nobs and TWC if it'll make you happy, though. I think you're going to be surprised by the results.

 

My Prediction

He will Clean up the Nobs [T4(5) ID] ;)

The TWC will chew him [T5 no ID]

 

Well I am going to give him a try tomorrow in a Planet Strike game leading a Sternguard, SP in a Air Dropped Redeemer. B)

We will see how that goes. <_<

[Brother Nathan]

seth with sternguard., why? they best at shooting, thy shoot they cant charge. seth cant really shoot, andhe only does combat, for them to charge they cant shoot... dosent quite work to well... this is where tycho does far better imho

[Crynn]

 

It must be a matter of preference, as I just don't see it.

 

An extra wound is nice, sure, but let's face it: you need that extra wound if you can't reliably cut your way through even IG. Rending's cool I guess, but I wouldn't want to take it over completely ignoring armor in the first place.

 

My point was the argument that he's good if you play shenanigans with where you place him in a unit applies just as easily to a cheaper vanilla dual LC Captain. There are killier HQ units in the BA 'dex, there are tougher HQ units, and there are better force multiplier HQ units - there are a few that do all three. Simply being cheap isn't a good enough reason to take him if an even cheaper option would work better in most cases, which I believe it would.

 

 

-T4 beeing a weakness? well it is a con concerning the amount of powerfistst that you might face but mind you it is a con that ALL our characters have. even Dante (and if im not mistaken) the Sanguinor and Curbolo. only Mephiston has far better stats and you pay a handfull for it.

 

I'd consider T4 being a weakness just looking at the Eternal Warrior creep that seems to be going on - Space Wolves can buy it for vanilla Lords, for all love. Sanguinor is T4, but at least he has EW.

 

lists can be build without relying on characters killing power alone.

 

That's very true, but if an HQ isn't bringing killing power to the table, he better be bringing something else. Seth doesn't. He's not a force multiplier, he's not very killy.

 

Librarians are good HQs. Mephiston is usually a good HQ. Dante is situationally a good HQ. I'm still trying my best to make the Sanguinor work. Beyond that, BAs get royally screwed in the HQ department, and Seth's just a symptom of it. If Seth works for you, great; I've always been an advocate of suboptimal choices if there's a reason people like them. But the question was, "Is Seth worth it?" And the answer appears to be no, as there are other options that do what little he does better, and some are arguably cheaper - unless you desperately need an HQ who could theoretically take out two Land Raiders in one round of assault if the stars align and it's a full moon and you've got a winning lottery ticket in your wallet.

 

Very very true Khavos.

 

 

Well, a dual LC Captain, for one. I just ran a little informal mathhammer comparison, and gave Seth a rather generous assumption that four 1s would always be rolled against him. Even with that rather high bonus, the 2LC Captain is better against MEQ, even against GEQ,

 

This is just ridiculously disingenuous. Why are you forming an argument basing Seth's worth on fighting MEQs and GEQs when you (should) have a whole army of useful units that can dust those fairly easily and more cost effectively.

 

Str 8 striking at initiative 5/6 is like gold dust, and when everyone is spamming vehicles and invul saves, not being a power weapon is a small thing. How's a LC Captain do against those Dreadnoughts, Armoured Sentinels, Other vehicles that have moved >6", T6 and up models, models with invul saves, Cybork nobs, swarms, other models with multi wounds, and so on.

 

BA don't have null zone, opponent's aren't going to be rerolling their passed Invul saves. So every 2/3 of a hit not ignoring armour is a small price to pay for keeping an HQ with Str 8 at 5/6 init and the ability to auto hit things to the sub 200 point lvl.

 

Do you know whats better at killing vehicles than seth in most situations? A librarian with sword! He also can have another power to boost a squads combat, make offensive ranged attacksor break peoples Ld provide shields for the army, and what was that he kills meqs better with the right powers he kills geq/s better provides psychic defence, beats seth in a 1v1 and is wait for it... 60points cheaper! There is nothing seth does that the BA's cant do for cheaper in a HQ choice for cheaper, as cheaper really seams to be the only arguments for him at the moment.

[Captain Idaho]

As good as Librarians are, they are fairly fragile at times. Seth is a solid investment and fairly useful in a scrap against everybody, though excels against single targets or those with poor saving throws. I still think it is all in how you use him; stick him in a unit with plenty of power weapons and he fills a gap (hoard and hard target killer) and they make up for his weakness against heavy infantry. You have to consider what are the main counter attacking options Seth and his escort have to worry about and are they typically found in a 1,500pts list? I like to anchor my lines with at least a pair of Dreadnoughts, but with Seth about I am a little more cautious with their fighting potential.

 

I suppose it's a question of what does he do that other options can do better?

 

Fight ICs, MCs and Dreadnoughts, and killing them before they strike.

 

+

 

Have staying potentential.

 

Only Mephiston meets that criteria, and he is alot more expensive and can't go inside a unit.

 

I'm not saying he is broken or anything, nor that he will tear threw an opponent's list single handed, but he is certainly a solid investment.

[Khavos]

As good as Librarians are, they are fairly fragile at times. Seth is a solid investment and fairly useful in a scrap against everybody, though excels against single targets or those with poor saving throws. I still think it is all in how you use him; stick him in a unit with plenty of power weapons and he fills a gap (hoard and hard target killer) and they make up for his weakness against heavy infantry. You have to consider what are the main counter attacking options Seth and his escort have to worry about and are they typically found in a 1,500pts list? I like to anchor my lines with at least a pair of Dreadnoughts, but with Seth about I am a little more cautious with their fighting potential.

 

I suppose it's a question of what does he do that other options can do better?

 

Fight ICs, MCs and Dreadnoughts, and killing them before they strike.

 

+

 

Have staying potentential.

 

Only Mephiston meets that criteria, and he is alot more expensive and can't go inside a unit.

 

I'm not saying he is broken or anything, nor that he will tear threw an opponent's list single handed, but he is certainly a solid investment.

 

He's actually a pretty worthless horde killer if mathhammer is to be believed, and I think it is.

 

I'd also argue that Meph isn't the only SC we have that meets that criteria, and I'd say Seth himself doesn't meet it a lot of the time. He's absolutely worthless against any IC with T5 or Eternal Warrior, and if they've got a 2+ armor save, chances are he's not going to kill them before he's been stabbed in the face seven or eight times, either.

[Khavos]

I'll run him against some cybork nobs and TWC if it'll make you happy, though. I think you're going to be surprised by the results.

 

My Prediction

He will Clean up the Nobs [T4(5) ID] B)

The TWC will chew him [T5 no ID]

 

Well I am going to give him a try tomorrow in a Planet Strike game leading a Sternguard, SP in a Air Dropped Redeemer. ;)

We will see how that goes. :D

 

You're more or less right. Seth's actually decent against the Nobz, due to his ability to ID 'em fairly reliably due to their crap armor saves. He's slightly worse than the 2xLC Captain against TWC.

 

Alright, so other than vehicle killing, we can add killing T4, craptastic save, multi-wound models to Seth's list of uses.

[Mezkh]

Do you know whats better at killing vehicles than seth in most situations? A librarian with sword!

 

No, a Librarian with a sword is not 'better in most situations'

 

Auto Str8 hit has exactly the same chance of getting a pen hit on AV10 as 4 Str 10 attacks hitting on 6's, which is 2/3. Seth can glance though.

 

The Libby has to cast his power which presuming he can use his Ld10, fails 1/12 of the time, and he loses 1 of his two wounds 1/18 of the time. Obviously this becomes a lot worse if you fight Eldar, and other armies can attempt to nullify your Str 10 if they have their own hoods.

 

Libby generally sucks a lot more in combat, Less attacks, I4, Str 4, no invul save, having to cast powers hurts him. He can't use any other powers in the player turn unless you actually do make him cost as much as Seth.

 

 

He also can have another power to boost a squads combat, make offensive ranged attacksor break peoples Ld provide shields for the army, and what was that he kills meqs better with the right powers he kills geq/s better provides psychic defence, beats seth in a 1v1 and is wait for it... 60points cheaper!

 

Libbies are limited to 2 powers, 1 power max per player turn, unless you make him actually cost the same as Seth. So no, he doesn't do all that. Libbies are also bad combat characters. They bring a hood, but the hood has never mattered for me when it counts, so eh to that. They also choke their powers at the worst times. They're a good support HQ, but I'd be far more likely to take a more flexible and killy model like Seth as 1st choice HQ than a sole libby.

[Captain Idaho]

Depends on the IC, as the only ones I can think of with a natural T5 is Warboss and Tyranid Prime?

 

He's actually a pretty worthless horde killer if mathhammer is to be believed, and I think it is.

 

Math-hammer is never to be believed :D

[Khavos]

Math-hammer is never to be believed :lol:

 

Ha! Statistics might lie in individual cases, but never in the long run! :P

 

I'd actually give Seth a shot if he could pick up a jump pack. Having to get a Land Raider for the dude just doesn't seem worth it. I dunno. Maybe if I can find a Stormraven conversion for under $20...

[Whitefireinferno]

Why does everyone want Seth to have a Jumppack? since the days of chapter Approved the Flesh Tearers were always more about the Mech Assault Squads and Yes Seth might not be the Uber MEQ killing Machine But hell he makes a mess of things with a AV and thus why he should be sent to take down said things and yeah good luck to mr 2x LC hitting on 6's against a moving tank. BUT you also missed a huge point you got Mathhammer okay Il give you that but Mathhammer does not measure a ICs Awsome factor and Seth has that in spades And to be honest thats what really counts well to a real wargamer the thrill of a fight ,Creating storiess of war and bloodshed and Playing the Chapter/Army that you like sure he may not have a power weapon or a jump pack he has the Blood Reaver and well that is how My Tearers roll.

 

To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women. ~Conan~ he fully was the Prophet of the Flesh Tearers.

[Khavos]

Why does everyone want Seth to have a Jumppack? since the days of chapter Approved the Flesh Tearers were always more about the Mech Assault Squads

 

Which is nice and fluffy and everything, and great for actual Flesh Tearers, but kinda sucks for those of us who want to play successors that ain't the FTs, considering that the non-SC options outside of Librarian suck.

 

But hell he makes a mess of things with a AV and thus why he should be sent to take down said things and yeah good luck to mr 2x LC hitting on 6's against a moving tank.

 

Again, maybe it's just me, but I'm very rarely in a situation where I desperately need an HQ unit who is good almost exclusively at popping armor.

[Whitefireinferno]

Ah Brother Khavos I do see your point . But TBH the FT are the most well known of the Successors, But in the same Light I did wish that GW did some SC for the other major chapters But alas they did not It is kinda bad But I have to disagree on one thing I would not class our Non-SC guys BAD they May not be optimal but are not anywhere near Ethereal useless

[Grey Mage]

-T4 beeing a weakness? well it is a con concerning the amount of powerfistst that you might face but mind you it is a con that ALL our characters have. even Dante (and if im not mistaken) the Sanguinor and Curbolo. only Mephiston has far better stats and you pay a handfull for it.

It should be noted- even the mighty Mephiston is wounded on a 2+ from a Powerfist.

[Zid]

Do you know whats better at killing vehicles than seth in most situations? A librarian with sword!

 

No, a Librarian with a sword is not 'better in most situations'

 

Auto Str8 hit has exactly the same chance of getting a pen hit on AV10 as 4 Str 10 attacks hitting on 6's, which is 2/3. Seth can glance though.

 

The Libby has to cast his power which presuming he can use his Ld10, fails 1/12 of the time, and he loses 1 of his two wounds 1/18 of the time. Obviously this becomes a lot worse if you fight Eldar, and other armies can attempt to nullify your Str 10 if they have their own hoods.

 

Libby generally sucks a lot more in combat, Less attacks, I4, Str 4, no invul save, having to cast powers hurts him. He can't use any other powers in the player turn unless you actually do make him cost as much as Seth.

 

 

He also can have another power to boost a squads combat, make offensive ranged attacksor break peoples Ld provide shields for the army, and what was that he kills meqs better with the right powers he kills geq/s better provides psychic defence, beats seth in a 1v1 and is wait for it... 60points cheaper!

 

Libbies are limited to 2 powers, 1 power max per player turn, unless you make him actually cost the same as Seth. So no, he doesn't do all that. Libbies are also bad combat characters. They bring a hood, but the hood has never mattered for me when it counts, so eh to that. They also choke their powers at the worst times. They're a good support HQ, but I'd be far more likely to take a more flexible and killy model like Seth as 1st choice HQ than a sole libby.

 

I concur! Besides, who runs sword when we have powers like fear and rage!