librarian or chaplain?

[chaplain belisarius]

Which do you think is the better hq?

[angry man]

the chaplain comes into his own when used with n assault squad - his re-rolls to hit can really make a difference to an otherwise mediocre combat orientated unit.

 

otherwise though, i think id almost always go with the librarian - psychic defence is so important to an all-comers based list, as so many other armies can pack a punch htrough psychic powers. then there's the force weapon and the wide selection of his own other abilities, amongst which falls null zone.

 

i always use a libby, and not since the 4th ed dex have i taken a chappy

 

AM

[Jackelope King]

Librarian. Great psychic defenses and some of the best powers in the game (go go Null Zone).

 

The Chaplain just doesn't cut it in 5th Edition.

[Jakobus]

Depends on which Codex. The Rec for the BA is a better choice due a better stat line, the Libby is probably better in most other armies

[The Unknown Father]

Maybe you want to kill me after that, but why EVERY ONE cansider null zone as something so great? I don´t cosider it so great (maybe I´m stupid or I don´t understand how to use it).

 

Anwering the question most of the time I use librarian (as I said not null zone, normally termie amour gate and vortex, sometimes advenger), but if you want to use an strong assault squad (assault marines or assault termies on LR) a chaplain is good option, and remember that if you have enough points you can use bought, why not?

[Chengar Qordath]

Maybe you want to kill me after that, but why EVERY ONE cansider null zone as something so great? I don´t cosider it so great (maybe I´m stupid or I don´t understand how to use it).

Making your opponents re-roll their invulnerable saves is a great way to deal with some of the really hard to kill units that rely on invulnerable saves (like anything with a Storm Shield). Against targets like that, it's a great power

 

However, it does suffer from being a fairly narrow power; it's great against invulernable save-heavy lists (and makes Daemon players cry), but every army in the game can be set up with few/no invulnerable saves at all while still being very competitive. Null zone is one of those powers that's gold against it's intended targets, but can be really lackluster in other situations, and is rendered nigh-useless by some lists. I suppose it depends on your opponent.

 

As for the OP, I would agree that the Librarian is generally more useful. The Chaplain really suffers from having a pretty narrow role; either stick him into an assault unit to give them a nice boost on the charge, or don't bother taking him at all. Black Templars and Blood Angels tend to do better with them, thanks to having higher-stat Chaplains and the possibility of slapping furious charge onto their units to make their charge absolutely ridiculous.

[Glasqul]

Maybe you want to kill me after that, but why EVERY ONE cansider null zone as something so great? I don´t cosider it so great (maybe I´m stupid or I don´t understand how to use it).

 

It`s very useful against things like Daemons princes, Ctans , Eldar,Daemons. The 4+ & 5+ saves on the MC`s is much worse to manage when you have to reroll successful ones, and against Eldar you can sort of counter the reroll they can grant with their farseer.

 

Best regards

Robin

[ShinyRhino]

the chaplain comes into his own when used with n assault squad - his re-rolls to hit can really make a difference to an otherwise mediocre combat orientated unit.

 

He really works well with any unit with a good number of attacks per model. Command Squads, pistol/blade Scouts, Terminators of any variety, Sternguard, etc. Obviously, to get the most out of a Chaplain, you need to be rerolling as many dice as possible.

[chaplain belisarius]

Thanks guys...im sorting out a 1k marine list and am trying to decide on a chaplain or librarian to lead them. Since i have an assault squad i will probably go for a chaplain...

[Brother-Chaplain Gaius]

I always take the Chaplain and stick him in my assault squads, like with TH/SS terminators. re roll on thunderhammers is awesome.

 

however there always comes a time when you absolutely need a librarian, like versus demons or eldar. dont leave the fortress monastery without a librarian if you're fighting demons, null zone FTW

[Xeonic]

My vote is also(unsurprisingly) librarian. Why?

Because he can have an ability for any opponent, and can enhance your list as a whole rather than just the unit he's attached to.

 

Nullzone has been mentioned. Virtually every single squad you can field can pack low AP or power weaponey threats to take advantage of this.

He can pack a heavy flamer that's AP3. Tell me that's not useful!

He can be S6 with 2d6 armor pen. He's a super secret MC! Still WS4 though.

He can be Init 10. Marginal, but maybe useful in concert with another power.

He can give the unit he's attached to a 5++. Situational, 5++ is a randomness save, but saving 1/3 is better than none.

He can teleport around the board. Risky, potentially game winning.

He can drop S10 templates. If he's got a Relentless platform this is useful.

He can have a 3 shot, AP2 bolt pistol. Whoop-de doo. Still statistically better than a plasma gun rapidfire with no cost(aside from mandatory HQ) and no risk to the user.

 

Granted, all of these are pretty situational! The major downside to a libby has nothing to do with his powers though. A basic libby has no invulnerable save, so the first fist he runs acrost will turn him into a pastel blue paste. Sad, but true.

 

A chaplain is also very viable, specifically at low points where his rerolls will have a larger potential impact! For example, at 750pts having a third of your force rerolling their hits in CC is huge.

Still, for blind all comers lists, the libby is tops for me for sheer utility.

[DarkGuard]

My vote also goes to the Librarian, reason being he is more flexible than the Chaplain and performs better in his chosen role. With the Chaplain you really do need to chuck him in with some Assault Marines or Terminators to get the best use out him, and that use can be really useful for a relatively cheap amount. However, despite that he still has the same profile as a Librarian (plus 4++ save), and so can die easily in combat, while striking at the same time as most troops.

 

The Librarian though can be run cheaper (no need to get jump pack/ termy armour or digi weapons all the time, but it depends how you run him). Some might argue the extra 50% cost for the Epistolary upgrade, but you don't need it unless you're running a combat Librarian, and by that point you might as well use a Chaplain or Captain.

 

The key to getting the best out of non-Epistolary Librarian is to load him with powers which have very different uses. This is one of the reason why Null Zone/ Avenger is preferable. On the one hand you have a unit that forces successful invulnerable saves to be re-rolled. On the other hand he has a very powerful shooting attack which can decimate anything short of TEQ, MCs and tanks. There are some occasions where you may wish you had the Epistolary upgrade for both of these powers, but these are few and far between.

 

Of course, the best part of the Librarian is his flexibility, and his ability to be placed into almost any squad. I run mine with a Sternguard Squad with heavy flamers, meaning they can destroy infantry. However, you could feasibly run them with Terminators, Assault Squads, even combat squads and Command Squads.

 

It is this flexibility, cheapness and of course, psychic protection which makes them well worth including. Some people may believe the psychic hood isn't that good, but it's still saved me from Hellfire and Mind War attacks in the past. Plus nothing beats telling that pesky Eldar Farseer to shut up and stop throwing lightning bolts at you! :)

[rat of vengence]

In that point size I always go a Librarian WITH a small assault squad (sergeant with power fist!). I take the AP3 template death and machine curse usually.

 

RoV

[chaplain belisarius]

anyone tried a librarian with jumppack, the avenger and force dome leading a full assault squad? any good?

[Xeonic]

Looks good on paper, they wouldn't hit as hard in combat as a chaplain led assault squad of course, but that would probably be more than balanced with the AP3 heavy mind flamer. Plus the advantage there of being able to make them 1/3rd less vulnerable to PW attacks and longrange AP3 or better fire could work. All in all though I'd rather just take the chaplain with the assault squad. He's cheaper(jumppack discount), more survivable in CC, and drastically increases their performance on the charge.

 

If you're still having trouble deciding, or have a metal phobia, have a look at this guy and imagine him with a proper chapter shoulderpad.

I think I might have to retire my metal librarian. ;)

 

P.S. His command squad has some fantastic bitz that could be de-scorpioned too!

[DarkGuard]

anyone tried a librarian with jumppack, the avenger and force dome leading a full assault squad? any good?

 

I used one with Force Dome and Might of Heroes/Ancients? Was rather underwhelming, but the Assault Squad was small. I've never considered Force Dome to be a massively amazing power, 4+ would have been better, but then I imagine it would be a cert. I've heard that some people have used these with success, but I would still prefer a Chaplain with an Assault Squad.

[chaplain belisarius]

was thinking with a full assault squad could be a bit better...:)

[DarkGuard]

was thinking with a full assault squad could be a bit better...:wub:

 

That was my thinking as well, but that was in the past. To be honest I'm not too impressed with the Assault Squad, so I prefer the Librarian so I can chuck him in a Sternguard Squad.

[chaplain belisarius]

ive always found the mobility of the assault squad is far better than its close combat muscle...:)

[Jackelope King]

Yeah, Codex: Space Marines assault squads aren't going to do much damage to anyone, let alone enemy assault specialists. Assault Squads can clean up light infantry, but we get Tactical Squads. We're already quite capable of dealing with light infantry. All a Chaplain does is lets them eke out another wound or two during close combat. The only squad which, in my mind, would really benefit from having a Chaplain along struggles in Codex: Space Marines (Vanguard Vets... cripplingly expensive, but with enough attacks and access to power weapons to really benefit from having rerolls to hit). And fearless is just too much of a double-edged sword for my tastes.

 

Codex: Blood Angels has an edge there because of the ability to get Jump Packs in nearly every Force Org chart slot. Then couple that with Blood Lance + Descent of Angels + Sanguinary Priests, and you have a recipe that makes assault marines decidedly more valuable. (Then again, also note how Jump Pack armies in Codex: Blood Angels tend to rely on Vanguard Veterans or Sanguinary Guard for their real close combat punch.)

[chaplain belisarius]

yet another tactical assessment that makes perfect sense! :)

[DAwarrior43]

I remember reading somehwere on here that shinyrhino used a Librarian with a jump pack with avenger with a full assault squad with 2 flamers, think how many wounds you can stack up with a third of them being ap 3.