Fearless vs Tau Pinning Rule

[T-bows Titans]

SO my Death Company were pinned by the Tau utilizing Marker lights and whatever stuff they use. I admit i was still learning the newer rules of 5th ed and so my question is if they are fearless could they have still been pinned?

 

Per the rules that i understand, Fearless troops automatically pass all pinning and Morale tests (I know not leaderhsip tests), but after researching the subject on the internet, i could find no definitive answer to this situation.

 

My dudes where jumping towards Tau dude in the open, had no choice, he lit them up with marker lights and all his snipers he had and the dudes he had lit up my Death Company boys and he said i had to take a pinning test. As mentioned i am still learning rules so I did not argue the point, it was not until after the battle, he won, that i remembered my Death Company boys had never gone to the ground or been pinned when i played 10 years ago so i looked up the DEath Company special rules in the big new rule book and then i was confused.

 

He specifically said I had to make a pinning test, not a leadership test, so that is also confusing, how does a leadership test work with fearless troops?

 

Please help an old school 3rd ed player.....

[Morollan]

Dude, it's the very first sentence of the Fearless USR.

[hazardousZERO]

Page 75 WH rulebook. "Fearless troops automatically pass all morale and PINNING tests they are required to take."

 

So to answer your question no they shouldnt have had to take any type of test. It seens to me that your opponet ether knew and was cheating you, forgot about it or didnt know himself.

 

Morollan beet me too it.

[BlackSpike]

Page 75 WH rulebook. "Fearless troops automatically pass all morale and PINNING tests they are required to take."

 

So to answer your question no they shouldnt have had to take any type of test. It seens to me that your opponet ether knew and was cheating you, forgot about it or didnt know himself.

 

Morollan beet me too it.

Well, they have to take the test, but they automatically pass it!

Pick two dice up, say "Fearless, auto-pass" and put the dice back down :)

 

Fearless is NOT immune to all Leadership tests, only Morale and Pinning.

When someone asks you for a Leadership test, it can be worth asking "is that a Leadership or Morale test? Some tests use your Leadership stat (e.g. Morale, Pinning), but you are immune to. Others use Leadership, and you are not immune to (e.g. Leadership tests, Psychic Tests)

 

Just to muddy the waters, I did hear of a power (Can't remember what or who) that says (paraphrasing) "Make a pinning test, even if you are supposed to auto-pass". Here, even Fearless must roll da bones vs Ld.

[Angelus Mortifer]

A semi-related question then, and something we discussed at my local club (and feel we have resolved) but it's always good to get a second opinion.

 

Death Company, despite Rage, presumably can still go to ground as there's nothing that states they can't? Going to ground obviously prevents "a unit" from doing anything of it's own volition and they can do nothing at all in their following turn. Rage on the other hand is an involuntary action (assuming their is an enemy unit in sight), so in the following turn that they are meant to stay "grounded" they therefore should be able to get up and advance towards the nearest enemy unit... BUT... because they were "grounded" the turn before, am I right in thinking that all they can do is Rage move in that subsequent turn; no shooting or assaulting?

 

The mechanics go against the fluff in this instance and I know that choosing for the DC to go to ground would be very situational, but have we got it right? It's come up a couple of times when my squad was Rage moving across open ground and was hit by something nasty (Defiler Cannon etc.)...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

A semi-related question then, and something we discussed at my local club (and feel we have resolved) but it's always good to get a second opinion.

 

Death Company, despite Rage, presumably can still go to ground as there's nothing that states they can't? Going to ground obviously prevents "a unit" from doing anything of it's own volition and they can do nothing at all in their following turn. Rage on the other hand is an involuntary action (assuming their is an enemy unit in sight), so in the following turn that they are meant to stay "grounded" they therefore should be able to get up and advance towards the nearest enemy unit... BUT... because they were "grounded" the turn before, am I right in thinking that all they can do is Rage move in that subsequent turn; no shooting or assaulting?

 

The mechanics go against the fluff in this instance and I know that choosing for the DC to go to ground would be very situational, but have we got it right? It's come up a couple of times when my squad was Rage moving across open ground and was hit by something nasty (Defiler Cannon etc.)...

 

Nothing in Rage states you cannot GtG.

Also, rather interestingly, Rage does not state you must assault someone nor does it say you must assault the nearest unit....

[Angelus Mortifer]

Nothing in Rage states you cannot GtG.Also, rather interestingly, Rage does not state you must assault someone nor does it say you must assault the nearest unit....

 

I'm aware of both of those points :lol:. My question though is once my DC have gone to ground:

 

- I should still be able to make my Rage move the turn after I've Gone to Ground (visible target permitting, and therefore break from being GtG) because Rage forces involuntary movement, correct?

 

BUT...

 

- Because Rage only affects movement and nothing else I would be unable to shoot or assault in that following turn, because technically I'm still under the effects of GtG and because both shooting and assault are voluntary actions for Ragers, also correct?

 

Like I said, in those minimal instances that this can happen it seems silly that a bunch of crazed psychos would duck the effects of some particularly nasty incoming fire that would otherwise kill them, but leap up again before the smoke has even cleared to advance within either shooting or assault range (or both), only to not be able to do either because of the original GtG effects. Very unfluffy but I'm assuming we've worked it out correctly mechanics-wise...?

 

Essentially, I'm just trying to work out from a game-play perspective the pros and cons of choosing whether to send my DC to ground because of mass Lascannon fire for example, thereby maybe saving a few more in the unit, but knowing that the following turn all I can do is Rage move with them...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I'm aware of both of those points ;). My question though is once my DC have gone to ground:

 

1] - I should still be able to make my Rage move the turn after I've Gone to Ground (visible target permitting, and therefore break from being GtG) because Rage forces involuntary movement, correct?

 

BUT...

 

2] - Because Rage only affects movement and nothing else I would be unable to shoot or assault in that following turn, because technically I'm still under the effects of GtG and because both shooting and assault are voluntary actions for Ragers, also correct?

 

Like I said, in those minimal instances that this can happen it seems silly that a bunch of crazed psychos would duck the effects of some particularly nasty incoming fire that would otherwise kill them, but leap up again before the smoke has even cleared to advance within either shooting or assault range (or both), only to not be able to do either because of the original GtG effects. Very unfluffy but I'm assuming we've worked it out correctly mechanics-wise...?

 

Essentially, I'm just trying to work out from a game-play perspective the pros and cons of choosing whether to send my DC to ground because of mass Lascannon fire for example, thereby maybe saving a few more in the unit, but knowing that the following turn all I can do is Rage move with them...

 

GtG

".... is that the unit can do nothing until the end of its following turn.... Whilst it has GtG the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions...."

 

Rage

"must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy.... Whilst falling back, embarked on a transport, or if no enemy is visible, they ignore this rule."

 

This is very hard to get RAW on, but here goes....

Rage has exceptions as quoted. I feel GtG is another exception.

 

GtG has only exceptions working when the enemy does something [though you could argue that being visible to a Rage unit is doing something if you really wanted to] and these completely undo GtG ~ and so for me, that is why the Rage unit cannot sort of GtG.

 

GtG is on or off. So you cannot do your second option.

 

As to your first option, you are getting your cake and eating it to ~ you get all the benefits of GtG but none of the bad things. This is something I think cannot be right.

 

I would play GtG as if the DC were a regular unit and in effect GtG is the 4th exception to Rage.

Otherwise you get the cake and eat it too

or

You are changing the GtG rules.

 

Am I making stuff up? a bit. Imagine the DC GtG with their faces to the ground meaning there are no enemies to be seen.

Perhaps they caught a glimpse of Sanguinius and bow down in reverence....

[Angelus Mortifer]

GtG

".... is that the unit can do nothing until the end of its following turn.... Whilst it has GtG the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemy actions...."

 

Rage

"must always move as fast as possible towards the closest visible enemy.... Whilst falling back, embarked on a transport, or if no enemy is visible, they ignore this rule."

 

This is very hard to get RAW on, but here goes....

Rage has exceptions as quoted. I feel GtG is another exception.

 

GtG has only exceptions working when the enemy does something [though you could argue that being visible to a Rage unit is doing something if you really wanted to] and these completely undo GtG ~ and so for me, that is why the Rage unit cannot sort of GtG.

 

GtG is on or off. So you cannot do your second option.

 

As to your first option, you are getting your cake and eating it to ~ you get all the benefits of GtG but none of the bad things. This is something I think cannot be right.

 

I would play GtG as if the DC were a regular unit and in effect GtG is the 4th exception to Rage.

Otherwise you get the cake and eat it too

or

You are changing the GtG rules.

 

Am I making stuff up? a bit. Imagine the DC GtG with their faces to the ground meaning there are no enemies to be seen.

Perhaps they caught a glimpse of Sanguinius and bow down in reverence....

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that it is an oddity that they clearly missed as to what a Raging unit does with regards to GtG. I wasn't however saying that I was wanting to GtG and then, because of Rage, act normally the following turn, hence the "BUT..."

 

If my interpretation of the rule(s) is correct (taking the fluff element out of it completely), you can still have them hanging in the wind the following turn due to the inability to shoot or assault, only Rage move - so it's a benefit as well as a potential noose round your neck still.

[BladeEncarmine]

One thing I think you're missing is that the Rage USR states that "the unit moves as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit visible".

 

Once you GtG, your maximum possible movement for your next movement phase is 0", so you technically are "moving as fast as possible".

 

It's kind of like asking if an immobilized DC dread can still rage towards an enemy... sure, it just has a maximum movement range of 0".

[Angelus Mortifer]

One thing I think you're missing is that the Rage USR states that "the unit moves as fast as possible towards the nearest enemy unit visible".

 

Once you GtG, your maximum possible movement for your next movement phase is 0", so you technically are "moving as fast as possible".

 

It's kind of like asking if an immobilized DC dread can still rage towards an enemy... sure, it just has a maximum movement range of 0".

 

Never thought of that. Cheers :wub:

[T-bows Titans]

So its the cherry boy again. Still confused as all get out, so I got my hands on a TAU codex and the marker light rule on page 29 says the following"

 

 

A marker light can do the following

 

To impose a -1 leadership penalty on the marked unit for the purposes of any pinning test imposed by the firing units shooting. Multiple counters may be expended to impose a cumulative modifier.

 

So if I am understanding this correctly he would be using the marker lights to give me a pinning test(s), but since i pass all pinning tests autumatically because i am FEARLESS, it would be useless to do, am i correct? Or am I missing something here.......

[breng77]

No you are correct, there are very few things (from old codicies) that can pin fearless units (they cause leadership tests not pinning tests.). But if you are caused to take a pinning test you pass it automatically so no matter what he drops your LD to you just keep coming.