Gunline?

[Ravenfeld]

I know the question might seem silly because, hey, how hard is it to buy lots of guns right? But I don't just want to buy lots of guns, I want to buy lots of guns and be competitive.

 

Maybe if some of you could lay down your gunlines and tell me how they work for you I might get a better idea myself!

 

I would appreciate any insight!

[Jackelope King]

Razorback spam.

 

Foot gunlines don't work with Codex: Space Marines. You don't get enough mobility in such lists to stay competitive. Modern lists will eat you alive.

[minigun762]

I think a good gunline would start with Combi-Predators, Typhoon Speeders and shooty Dreads. All of these units are cost effective and able to put out alot of long range firepower.

 

I would also agree that Razorbacks have a place but I would use them more to transport combat squads around the board to claim objectives while the other half (with the heavy weapon) camps your home objective(s).

[Xeonic]

Okay, focus here. You take your guns, right? Yeah, you line those up. :lol:

 

I'm going to disagree about razorbacks. Yes, they're great, but not with Tactical marines in them. If you want full tac squads mobile then you need rhinos. Get there twice as fast and don't worry about that whole "shooting" thing until you have your bolters on site. Shooting at range is not for troops transports to do IMO, as it limits their movement to 6".

It's simple, tac squads are only marginally useful at less than 10 men, yes you can combat squad and leave half your bolters behind, but so can a force in rhinos if you want them to. Giving yourself rhinos to ride in gives you a choice, which is important. Mobility is important in 5th edition, so you need to get that gunline into position fast, or at least give yourself the option to. Part of this is the fact that we use a short range weapon as the primary weapon for our army, and part is that we have fewer troops on the table than non "elite" armies, so we need to effectively bring them to bear.

 

Either way, don't buy any rhino kits. Period. Buy razorbacks or whirlwinds, much better value for the dollar, and just don't glue the top hatch so you can try both. Alternately use your aegis defense line turret bases and get a game going with some nifty static whirlie/TLlas/TLHB emplacements. Or build your own emplacements! Or...just leave that sprue in your bitz box, whatever floats your boat.

 

Now, BA fast razrobacks with small useful squads, that's another story entirely.

 

If you want a pure foot gunline you may be looking at the wrong army, as codex marine gunlines can be decent, but never really competitive. You need to move to take objectives, and 5th edition is a very much objective based game.

[Ravenfeld]

I think a good gunline would start with Combi-Predators, Typhoon Speeders and shooty Dreads. All of these units are cost effective and able to put out alot of long range firepower.

 

I would also agree that Razorbacks have a place but I would use them more to transport combat squads around the board to claim objectives while the other half (with the heavy weapon) camps your home objective(s).

 

Do you think I could get away with using Dreads exclusively to fill the ranged firepower role in conjunction with, say, 3 Razorbacks and 3 combat squaded Tac Squads? I would probably also get a Thunderfire Cannon and I am on the fence between a Ironclad, Assault Termies, or a Sternguard squad.

[Ravenfeld]

Okay, focus here. You take your guns, right? Yeah, you line those up. :lol:

 

I'm going to disagree about razorbacks. Yes, they're great, but not with Tactical marines in them. If you want full tac squads mobile then you need rhinos. Get there twice as fast and don't worry about that whole "shooting" thing until you have your bolters on site. Shooting at range is not for troops transports to do IMO, as it limits their movement to 6".

It's simple, tac squads are only marginally useful at less than 10 men, yes you can combat squad and leave half your bolters behind, but so can a force in rhinos if you want them to. Giving yourself rhinos to ride in gives you a choice, which is important. Mobility is important in 5th edition, so you need to get that gunline into position fast, or at least give yourself the option to. Part of this is the fact that we use a short range weapon as the primary weapon for our army, and part is that we have fewer troops on the table than non "elite" armies, so we need to effectively bring them to bear.

 

Either way, don't buy any rhino kits. Period. Buy razorbacks or whirlwinds, much better value for the dollar, and just don't glue the top hatch so you can try both. Alternately use your aegis defense line turret bases and get a game going with some nifty static whirlie/TLlas/TLHB emplacements. Or build your own emplacements! Or...just leave that sprue in your bitz box, whatever floats your boat.

 

Now, BA fast razrobacks with small useful squads, that's another story entirely.

 

If you want a pure foot gunline you may be looking at the wrong army, as codex marine gunlines can be decent, but never really competitive. You need to move to take objectives, and 5th edition is a very much objective based game.

 

Ok so what if I have two squads in Rhinos and one squad Combated and put into a Razorback? Then three Dreads with hard hitting pain? 2x Plasma 1x Las, or 2x Las, 1x Plasma, I dunno.

[Xeonic]

Sternguard, great for gunline, assault termies...what? Ironclad is also an odd choice if you're trying to maximize firepower and turn your enemy into rubble before he can reach you.

 

EDIT: really, do what pleases you, and works for you. It'll be your army, and I'm just giving my opinion.

 

EDIT2: And my opinion on relying exclusively on dreads for fire support is that it's a little silly, but doable. Remember that a TLlas/ML dread will still only be putting out 2 high strength low AP shots a turn. A combi pred puts out 4(admittedly non twin-linked) shots, and costs less. And is more durable at range.

[Ravenfeld]

Haha,

 

Yeah I suppose neither of those unit types make sense for a gunline eh?

 

Well I have never truly been a super tanky kind of guy, for me the love has always been for Terminators and Dreadnaughts which is why I chose the Iron Hands to begin with (as I like to adhere to fluff) so I would love a competitive list where I could incorporate a great deal of one if not both of those options and still have it be a viable, competitive list. Am I dreaming?

[Xeonic]

I like dreads. I use dual TLAC riflemen on occasion(fantastic for de-meching someone as 4x TL autocannon shots is basically sure to deal some damage to an AV11 target), or DCCW+hflamer+ plasma cannon or assault cannon as nice generalist midfield support. I never liked lascannon on them, I seem to have a propensity for rolling two "1s" in a row on their to hit rolls. :lol:

 

Terminators are fine. In a "gunline style" list, you could use tac termies to great effect, as they can output a good deal of midrange firepower, and are really quite decent in assault(just as killy vs most targets as hammernators), but I'm having trouble here, you want to set up a gunline, with assault terminators. In a land raider I presume?

 

Nothing wrong with that, however I suggest you change the focus of your army at that point from "gunline" to "mechanized infantry with heavy weapons" :D which I refer to in my own lists as "mech. gunline", or essentially a gunline style army with mobility. Add assault termies and sternguard and it starts to just look like another mechanized list, nothing wrong with that though.

 

One of the virtues of the rhinos is that you can still combat squad, leave your heavy weapon combat squads behind, and move up with your sergeant+specials. But it's on your terms, depending on the game/opponent/army not a choice you make in list building. You can also sit and gunline it up, using the rhinos to block LoS to bring your heavy weapons to bear where you want them and limit your opponents fields of fire at the same time.

 

I ran a foot gunline in 4th edition, and it worked okay for me, however my new "mechanized gunline" is far superior in my own estimation. :D

I rarely play the same list twice though.

[Ravenfeld]

Well would you do me the honor of giving me a general framework of your force so I can mimic it with my own touches? and believe me there will be touches..

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Gunline 101:

x2 master of forge both with beam cannons

x2 Full devastator squads with x4 Missile launchers and sgt with power fist

either a whirlwind or a Thunder fire Cannon (whirlwind IMO)

x4 Tactical squads with Flamer,Power fist and Laser cannon

x1 Assault full squad with x2 flamers and combi flamer in a free drop

x3 "Rifleman" dreads or a pair of Ven dreads with Assault cannons and Missile lauchers (BS5 hits all 5 shots, on 2+)

and depending on points, take drop pods for "empty drops to funnel your foe into cross fires or kill zones. (this list, could have up to 10 empty drop pods if you have the points and the models.)

if you have the points and you only take 2 dreads, then you may consider taking a elite Tech marine with full harness to keep your 2 "hellfire" dreads in good shooting order.

 

i

[Xeonic]

As I said, I rarely fight with the same list twice, that would be boring to me. My collection however, consists of:

 

7 differently setup captains pfist and sbolter(counts-as pedro), PW and BP, RB and combi-melta, LC and SS, RB and hellfire bolter(AoBR), terminator armor w/TH&SS(counts as lysander)

2x libby , 1 PA, 1 Terminator libby(converted space hulk libby)

MoTF on foot with beamer(why would you even take a motf without one?)

2x command squads, plus a handful of extra figures that can act as sergeants or command squad members, 2x apoth, one BP/CCW one bolter, 4x plasmagun vets, pfist vet, standard bearer with PW, 1x company champion

command rhino/razorback

20x tac termies, 2x assault cannon 2x Hflamer

10x man sternguard squad, combis and sarge magnetized

1x techmarine, old metal one.

4x 10 man tactical squads, most special and heavy weapons available as spare figures(4x flamers, 4x PG, 3x MG, 4x ML, 3x LS, 4x PC, 4x HB, 4x PW sarges, 4x Pfist sarges, 2x combi-plas sarges, 4x BP+chainsword sarges

4x rhinos

2x 10 man dev squads, 6x missile launchers and 2x lascannon(the rest of the HW are tacticals) 1x magnetized dev sarge(pointless waste of magnets)

2x land speeders(magnetized, plans to purchase 3x more)

3x predators(one trilas, one magnetized, one dakka)

4x dreadnought, all magnetized, most options.

10x scouts, Telion, ML, HB, snipers

 

...More or less. I have some stuff stowed that I'm not sure on, but that's the gist of it. As you can see, mostly static gunline style assets, aside from the speeders. :)

My other army is chaos marines, very agressive so my ultras are more shooty and conservative. Different, but interesting to play, ATSKNF and combat tactics make an all or mostly shooty army quite viable. Alternately Stubborn and lots of powerfists. Whatever works for you. ;)

 

Do I suggest you copy my purchases? No, not at all. I'm subject to shiny model syndrome, I buy what looks cool after I have a workable list. I also purchase and restore poorly cared for/assembled/painted models at a major discount, so most of this is stripped or primed black, and backlogged in front of 60+ chaos marines I still need to paint.

 

Do I suggest you start with 2 troops and an HQ? Yes.

 

I suggest a libby. If you find that unfluffy for iron hands, take a MoTF. ;)

 

I further suggest this for purchase order:

2x Tac squad box

2x rhino hull(razor or whirlie)

HQ choice

Devastator box(not to build devs, for HW options for your tacticals, as the tac box comes with only ML, flamer, plas, also the dev box has a fist for some reason. Hooray!)

Then get something fun, a dread, or a pred, or some other firepower option(thunderfire?!). Proxy stuff and try it out(you already knew that one), see what you like.

Figure out what support you need and get it. The only reason I bought landspeeders was because I got clocked by some heavy armor that I just couldn't handle as I'd have liked.

 

As for my "force", I generally take a libby, because he's like a multi-tool, he's got a power for every occasion. Also he's got psyker defense, which is(sometimes) essential. If you've ever used a sorc or DP psyker and gotten shut down on warptime or something you know why that's handy.

I do occasionally pull out a captain, I have some really nicely converted(if I say so myself!) captains that need table time every now and again.

I don't use chaplains. CC is not the goal of my army and that's why you'd use one. That's why my other army is very agressively kitted chaos marines, right?

 

I then select two troops choices, and one more for every 500 pts the army is past 1k. I like tac squads, my first two choices are inevitably them, and my favorite loadout is Plasma Cannon, Plasma Gun, Powerfist, Rhino. Some will argue on the fists, but I like them. I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them if you catch my drift. My troops will generally provide the bulk of my anti personnel fire, plus the weapons I give them have a good chance to hurt lighter armored targets too.

My third troops choice may be a lesser equipped tac squad(ML/flamer or ML/melta), or it may be scouts. It all depends, like I said I like to mix it up.

 

Then I select support. This is where I get my transport killing and tank hunting choices. If they can mulch troops too, so much the better(MM/HF speeder is a good example here). Generally I try to get two sources of fast melta and two sources of longrange anti transport in here minimum, if not more. I often take rifledreads for my anti transport and leave my speeders to deal with heavier armor(MM/HF or even MM/HB "fraidycat pattern" speeders have treated me well).

 

After the bare minimums according to the above guidelines are filled in, I add in whatever else I want. Sternguard, tac termies every once in awhile, dakka pred(it shoots how many shots for 80pts?). Many of the other choices can also do longrange AT or deal with heavy armor in a pinch(say, assault cannon rending), but I like to take a couple dedicated counters to the common threats I see on the table, and what I see on the table are transports and land raiders filled with nasty terminators.

 

Anyways, just my ramblings, your mileage -will- vary, and you -will- have to adapt. But that's true of anything anyone tells you due to differences in local metagame. :lol:

[Jackelope King]

Gunline 101:

x2 master of forge both with beam cannons

x2 Full devastator squads with x4 Missile launchers and sgt with power fist

either a whirlwind or a Thunder fire Cannon (whirlwind IMO)

x4 Tactical squads with Flamer,Power fist and Laser cannon

x1 Assault full squad with x2 flamers and combi flamer in a free drop

x3 "Rifleman" dreads or a pair of Ven dreads with Assault cannons and Missile lauchers (BS5 hits all 5 shots, on 2+)

and depending on points, take drop pods for "empty drops to funnel your foe into cross fires or kill zones. (this list, could have up to 10 empty drop pods if you have the points and the models.)

if you have the points and you only take 2 dreads, then you may consider taking a elite Tech marine with full harness to keep your 2 "hellfire" dreads in good shooting order.

Sorry. This is bad advice.

 

In general.... you're playing a foot gunline. Against 4th edition lists, you probably win. But this is 5th Edition. Anything fast will just run up, pick one of your flanks, and proceed to disassemble you. A well-built modern Nid list will close, take a beating on turn 2, and then just eat this army alive. A well-built Tau list or Guard list won't even leave a stain behind: they'll vaporize that with their shooting too.

- You're taking two squads of pricey Devastators without taking advantage of a 2-for-1 on the Force Organization Chart and grabbing their Dedicated Transport

- Four Tactical Squads, No Transports... come on... we get some of the cheapest and best transports in the game, point for point

- A Lone Whirlwind is little better than a Hail Mary pass (I think Whirlwinds lose hands-down to Dakka Predators anyway by sheer weight of fire, but that's neither here nor there)

- 2 Master of the forges on foot. Because S6AP4 small blasts are just gangbusters.

- The Rifleman dreads are far, far, far better than 2 Venerable dreads

- The Assault Squad is really strange. They'll drop in, fire off two flamers at... what? Transport rear doors? Maybe fry a few exposed Light Infantry, and then get mulched the next turn? They have to sit around after they drop. A shooty army will dedicate a few shots to obliterating them in a heartbeat. An assaulty army will run in and devour them. I mean, the idea has some merit, but you can't just drop them in unaided.

- 0 Melta... I didn't add up the points, but I really hope it comes out to 1500 or less, because 4 las cannons aren't enough to glance AV14 out of commission

 

If you really want an army like this (Marines on foot, lots of shots), Space Wolves can shovel the Missile Launchers onto the table (with reasonably-priced Longfangs and Wolfguard in Terminator Armor and Cyclone Missile Launchers) and spam tons of Krak Missile shots per turn. And they can hoof it on foot because you can support this kind of army with very fast units like Thunderwolf Cavalry. Codex: Space Marines lack such a cost-effective and fast threat. Otherwise, mech up. At least stick those Tacticals into Rhino Bunkers so they have some protection while they're firing their las-cannon. Swap the Devs for Typhoons or Predators. Keep the Rifleman over the Venerable Dreadnoughts. Replace a Master of the Forge and the suicide flamer squad with something useful.

 

Codex: Space Marines can sit back and shoot, but we need to mech up to do it. We need to be able to quickly get into position, shoot, and scoot when the enemy closes. Foot can't do that for us. Foot gunlines can and will lose the day. Mech up.

[hazardousZERO]

If it hasnt already been suggested and sence you like dreads have you considered taking a Master of the Forge and using 6 dreads? Id suggest 3 with las/ML and 3 ironclads for once ur enemy gets too close for comfort.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Hmm... the only viable options for a gunline army seems to be combi-preds, rifle dreads, and typhoons. All give 48" shots. The combi-preds can whack heavy armor with those lascannons. The rifle dreads can whack transports or heavy infantry. The Typhoons can whack armor or infantry.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

Razorback spam.

 

Foot gunlines don't work with Codex: Space Marines. You don't get enough mobility in such lists to stay competitive. Modern lists will eat you alive.

 

This is bad advice. for a player looking for GUNLINE advise, you WHOLE input is to mech up. and for every Cheap rhino/razor back is same as one more Laser cannon in a devastator squad, x3 Tactical laser cannons, or a pair of them in a Sternguard squad. The POINT of a gun line is you allow your opponent to close with you and your guns. As for the Drop pod/Assault squad, guess you never heard, or have knowledge of using speed bumps.

Is the infantry Gunline a post 4th edition dinosaur? of course it is. but even old half dead dinosaurs are scary.. just look at the BT forum/codex.

 

i guess the one think that stands out is the fact that you don't seem to have any kind of understanding about cover saves and how this works with gun lines / Earth style builds.

[Warp Angel]

~125 pts HQ - Master (Gets you an orbital bombardment). Other weapons as you see fit.

~ 450 pts Elite - 3x 5 man Sternguard with 2x Heavy Weapons (plasma cannon or lascannons are dirt cheap here)

~ 550 pts Heavy - 3x 5 man Devastators with 4x Missile Launchers

~ 540 pts Fast - 3x 2 Typhoon Land Speeders

~ 650 pts Troop - 5x 5 man Tacticals with HB Razorback

 

This leaves you with 100 or so points to play around with. You've got mobility and heavy weapons without going vehicle heavy. You've got no defense against hand to hand, but you should be able to shoot things to death.

 

This provides you with:

 

15 twin linked heavy bolters

9 heavy bolter shots

6 las cannon/plasma cannon shots

26 missile launcher shots

9 sternguard bolter shots

25 regular bolter shots

[Firepower]

I'm also curious to see how this list can be best implemented, as I'm trying to figure out a nice table-top incarnation of my current DIY chapter who "prescribe to a doctrine of ranged attrition." Now, it's fairly obvious that gunlines aren't tournament winners, or else 1) half the 'advice' given here wouldn't have been uttered and 2) instead of even asking the question, there'd already be dozens of army lists to rip off.

 

They way i see it now, there's a problem of too many options. There is a ton of stuff in Codex:SM which can throw a lot of lead down range, but picking out the ones most likely to wither enemy armies into submission or at least cripple the oncoming blow is a real trick.

 

So, bit for bit, i see it like this:

 

HQ options:

 

Master of the Forge with beamer- looks real juicy, but no invulnerable save could be dangerous. Bolster Defences is also tempting for a really dug in line.

 

Pedro-Nice even if you dont want to take sternguard, he's got a real mean bit of dakka on one arm and can confer +1 attack to the line when the enemy eventually gets to grips. laos, Orbital Bombardment...doesn't get much more shooty than that, does it?

 

Lysander-Only including this guy because of his Bolter Drill rule, but considering he's geared for CC this seems an awful waste (and pricey)

 

Librarian- Ubiquitous, adaptable, and full of tricks, plus that handy-dandy Hood. Lots of psychic shooting attacks to choose from, plus Gate of Infinity might be good for substituting Transports (now ya see us, now we're 24" away and reloading!")

 

Troop Options:

 

Tactical- the real trick here seems to be whether or not to choose a transport, and just what exactly they should be packing. Lascannons seem a solid choice for the more movile enemies, while Plasma cannons could likely pop transports and still work nice on infantry. Flamers are probably best for special weapons for that last minute cleansing.

 

Scouts- No one's mentioned these guys yet, and I'm curious as to why. It seems to me they could either make a decent speed bump at midfield, or force your enemy to divide and conquer. Sniper rifles and bolters both seem like fine choices, and if you want to spring for it the cloaks will keep them alive a bit longer. A teleport homer for shooty terminators would also make an unpleasant surprise.

 

Elites:

 

Sternguard- Shooty incarnate. Also pricey incarnate. Lots of options for different face melting toys, and drop podding them behind advancing enemies could make for another nice diversionary tactic. Still, would have to be very careful not to play them as a suicide squad because, again, they're pricey.

 

Terminators- Cyclone Missile launchers and assault cannons, plus big sparkly fists for anything that gets a wild hair up its ass and decides to charge. Use scouts with homers as bait and bring down the pain, or deploy from teh start and have them bolster the line.

 

Dreads- well...just about anything you want, really. They can take just about any gun known to the Imperium, but from what I read above it seems the most popular are 'riflemen' or missile launcher/asscan. I haven't done the math or played with them enough to know what is absolutely the best choice here, but I know i would want at least one on the line.

 

Legion of the Damned- Just had to say it, they seem like a good fluffy choice for an army like this. They'll need the intervention. Still, I've never heard anyone particularly sing their praises, and they are super pricey, so I'd only take them for sh@& and giggles.

 

Fast Attack:

 

Landspeeder- Seems a bit counter-intuitive for a gunline, but these guys could be the horse fly on teh enemy's backside with the right toys. Fly them up the rear and melt the enemy's heavy hitters and transports from behind. After all, the more they have to walk, the more they'll get shot.

 

Bikes- Same argument as Speeders, but a bit different flavor. Not quite as adaptable as a MM/HF speeding bullet, but they can hide in cover, and in a pinch assault something to tie it up for a while and narrow your target priority list.

 

Landspeeder Storm- I know, I giggle at the thought too. Still, if you like scouts like I do, this could make a handy last minute objective stealer. Plus you can slap a decent weapon on it for just 10 points and have it kill something before it inevitably gets turned into a fireball.

 

Heavy Support, the heart and soul of the gunline!:

 

Devastators- So tempting, so so tempting. A bunch of marines, guns the size of a human body, pumping bolts/rockets/balls of plasma/laser death into the enemy. They just scream gunline. Unfortunately, they don't seem to pack the punch of the other Heavy Support choices, and cost a bit more once you actually give them some real teeth. I dont think I could ever go any further than springing for 4 Missile Launchers in good conscience.

 

Predators-the Dakka staple of space marines. The only reason I can see not to have these in a gunline is if you have a preference for another HS choice.

 

Whirlwinds- Real handy for those lists which will try and stay in cover on their march to your line. I'm a big fan of these beauties.

 

Landraiders- Sigh...no, they dont belong in this list. I will resist the lure of the Redeemer. I must!

 

Thunderfire Cannon- I loooove this puppy. This thing spells firepower like hairspray spells the 80's. Still, it seems awfully vulnerable to me. That, and the model is reportedly just as painful to assemble as I imagine it would be to get shot by the damn thing.

 

Transports:

 

Drop Pod- doesnt really seem like a gunline thing to me, but a few units would really benefit from it.

 

Rhino- what part of GUN line isn't clear? I get that it could be useful for delivering your troops somewhere vital, yeah, but to me gunline means you should be stationary and daring your opponent to come within arms reach, and the more guns the better. This leads me to

 

Razorback- Ahh the Rhino on roids. Park it behind the troops that bought it and let whatever gun you slapped on top join the volley. If things go well, it can pick up a squad after the smoke clears to go nab an objective. If thigns dont go so well, or look like they wont, grab the nearest small unit and get them the hell outta Dodge. Of course this thing requires the unit be small, but for things like devastators and maybe even sterngaurd, small sounds like the order of the day.

 

 

 

WHEW! Ok, so, like I said, TONS of juicy no-holds-barred firepower to choose from. This to me is the real pain of the gunline, not the immobility (blah blah 5th edition so what) but finding the best mixture of long range death to incinerate, shred, and obliterate anything that has the gall to poke its head out of cover. Also, much of the tactics/ideas I've put here are purely hypothetical (scouts with homers and Termies in reserve as "decoys" for example). Everyone seems to have their favorite ("screw your venerable dread take the rifleman you fool!" and so on) but it seems to me that one loses sight of the list when he focuses on individual toys.

 

So, I offer the simple request for a simple formula. Of all the choices from Codex SM, what gets the most shots, with the most accuracy, and the most power down range for the least amount of points?

[Jackelope King]

Easy, tiger. I seem to have touched a nerve :D

and for every Cheap rhino/razor back is same as one more Laser cannon in a devastator squad, x3 Tactical laser cannons, or a pair of them in a Sternguard squad

A Las/Plas Razorback supporting a Tactical Squad is cheaper, more mobile, more durable, with more firepower, and still allows you to sit back and shoot.

 

The POINT of a gun line is you allow your opponent to close with you and your guns.

And it's inefficient because when you're on foot, you can't concentrate your forces to concentrate your fire. And most modern armies can. So they concentrate fire, you don't, and you die. That's why foot gunlines are weak without mobile elements supporting them: you can't dictate the flow of the game to the enemy. The enemy dictates it to you.

 

As for the Drop pod/Assault squad, guess you never heard, or have knowledge of using speed bumps.

I know about speed-bumps / bubble wrap / skimishers / whatever else you want to call them. The one you recommend isn't efficient. Putting a small Assault Squad in a Drop Pod for that odd-numbered pod in a drop pod focused army is effective. This isn't, especially when you're dropping them in alone. Sorry, man. If you're planning on using the Drop Pod to block and the Assault Squad as a speed bump in front of your gunline, that's indeed a marginal improvement, but still pricey and immobile. A mobile army can largely ignore it.

 

i guess the one think that stands out is the fact that you don't seem to have any kind of understanding about cover saves and how this works with gun lines / Earth style builds.

Yup. I play 40k without that wussy cover save nonsense, obviously. I've actually ripped those pages out of my rulebook and dashed them against the ground! :(

 

Shall we dissect this? You're depending on getting at least, one, preferably 2 big ruins in your deployment zone for your Masters of the Forge to bolster. Your army completely gives up mobility this way in exchange for (hopefully) dodging most turn 2 assaults or trying to trade shots long-range with a shooty army. That's more situational than you'd often like. You're going for broke on trying to dodge the most common old-school way of killing Marines (mass AP2 or better weapon fire), and maybe getting lucky enough to stack up Bolsters on a single big ruin and make your army more durable than Terminators. The whole point of this "classic gunline" is not to waste points on anything that doesn't point a bunch of guns at the enemy, and waiting for the enemy to get close to those guns. More guns on the table, more men to shoot the guns.

 

At which point, your opponent has two options:

1. Avoid you. Pretty easy, since you're pretty much stuck in your ruins. A shooty army will still take you to pieces, as unfortunately, other codicies can still torrent fire better than we can. Guard and Tau in particular will have no problem, 2+ cover save or no. More classic Codex: Space Marines lists (like classic mech) will just stroll on by you.

2. Run in and smash your face with multiple assaults. Suddenly all your shooting just doesn't matter when an enemy can assault two or so of your units at a time, lock himself in through your shooting phase, then assault again the next turn. Concentrating isn't as bad as it used to be, back in the day of Sweeping Assault, but without the old rules for Outnumbering, someone can merrily send the likes of a Thunderwolf Cavalry unit in to give you headaches (and a lot of the modern codicies get this... Blood Angels get... well, their Codex ;) and Tyranids get nasty little beasts like Gargoyles and Raveners). You only get one turn to shoot them before they're in melee.

 

The problem, you see, is that you don't have an effective way to turn all those Marines into threats. 3 Las Cannons and 4 Missile Launchers aren't particularly scary. Supporting a forward element that forces me to choose between shooting your firebase and your forward assault element? Now I'm nervous. If I have to choose between peppering your Devs with my autocannons or trying to take out your Rhinos before they drop off Tacticals at my flank, I'm more worried. But without that element, it's a shooting match, and Codex: Space Marines really don't get enough shoulder-mounted long-ranged weaponry to do it well.

 

Obviously that doesn't discount you from making such a list for a fun game. But a foot gunline isn't competitive with Codex: Space Marines. In fact, it might just be easier if I preface every one of my posts with that from now on ;)

[Brother_Fatiswon]

So, I offer the simple request for a simple formula. Of all the choices from Codex SM, what gets the most shots, with the most accuracy, and the most power down range for the least amount of points?

x3 dakka predators with SB (8-10 each)

x3 squadrons of three Landspeeders with AC/HB (7 each)

x3 dreads with AC/TLAC (6 shots each)

dual capts with HFS and x4 plasma gun command squads with razor backs with HB each (8-12 shots depending on range)

2-3 tacticals with Laser cannons and flamers and Razor backs with HB (4 dice each pass 24")

totals 24+21+18+16+12= 91 shots at plus 25"

30+21+18+24+16+16+16+3+3=147 shots plus x3 Flame templates at 12" or less

 

For 2225 points.

 

Edit:for totals

[Koremu]

~125 pts HQ - Master (Gets you an orbital bombardment). Other weapons as you see fit.

~ 450 pts Elite - 3x 5 man Sternguard with 2x Heavy Weapons (plasma cannon or lascannons are dirt cheap here)

~ 550 pts Heavy - 3x 5 man Devastators with 4x Missile Launchers

~ 540 pts Fast - 3x 2 Typhoon Land Speeders

~ 650 pts Troop - 5x 5 man Tacticals with HB Razorback

 

This leaves you with 100 or so points to play around with. You've got mobility and heavy weapons without going vehicle heavy. You've got no defense against hand to hand, but you should be able to shoot things to death.

 

This provides you with:

 

15 twin linked heavy bolters

9 heavy bolter shots

6 las cannon/plasma cannon shots

26 missile launcher shots

9 sternguard bolter shots

25 regular bolter shots

I really don't like that list, because I've read the "unit size and risk" link in your sig :D

 

5 man Devastator Squads with 4 Heavy Weapons are just too fragile.

 

If I were doing this, I'd use the BA codex and do something like; Librarian, 2 Devastator Squads, 2 Assault Squads, 2 Apothecaries, 3 Dakka Baals, 2 Techmarines with 3 Servitors and a Rifleman Dreadnaught.

 

If you can squeeze a Command Squad with Jump Packs and Meltaguns in there (replace one of the Apothecaries) then you're really rockin'

[glsn]

Something I considered for the Ironfist Fluff. They love TDA and Dreadnoughts, but the only way C:SM could have plenty of both is with a Master of the Forge. Why not Space Wolves? With Logan Grimnar you could take Wolf Guard (who can take mixed power armour and TDA in the same unit) as Troops and have Elite spaces open for Dreadnoughts. Your heavy weapons would be on Terminator Armour and therefore mobile, and the Dreadnoughts can keep up with them. Just a suggestion.

[Firepower]

So, I offer the simple request for a simple formula. Of all the choices from Codex SM, what gets the most shots, with the most accuracy, and the most power down range for the least amount of points?

x3 dakka predators with SB (8-10 each)

x3 squadrons of three Landspeeders with AC/HB (7 each)

x3 dreads with AC/TLAC (6 shots each)

dual capts with HFS and x4 plasma gun command squads with razor backs with HB each (8-12 shots depending on range)

2-3 tacticals with Laser cannons and flamers and Razor backs with HB (4 dice each pass 24")

totals 24+21+18+16+12= 91 shots at plus 25"

30+21+18+24+16+16+16+3+3=147 shots plus x3 Flame templates at 12" or less

 

For 2225 points.

 

Edit:for totals

 

You sure about your math here? I added this stuff up and the Landspeeders alone (3x3 with HB+AC) come to 810 points. When i added everything up it came closer to about 2800 :) I had to drop one of the captains with retinue, a dread, 5 landspeeders, and demote the rest of the speeders to MM/HF before the list came anywhere close to 2000.

 

That being said, it still looks like an awesome display of the Emperor's boomsticks. It may not be a big mass of foul grayskin railguns or anything like that, but it is a lot of shots.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

oh i know i have a few screws loose, and yeah, i'm sure i didn't add in the 2nd and 3rd squadron of Landspeeders. these would the 1st to go, in shaving the list down to a proper size. Those the and All the Razor backs, would be something like 220+270+270 off the total...

[spartan249]

Firepower isn't the only consideration you should be worrying about in a gunline. It's nice that you can fit all those guns in an army, but will they all be able to fire on what they need to fire on? Will they be able to avoid incoming threats that their firepower can not handle? Will they be able to take advantage of openings in an opponent's formation to establish a foothold on a flank and surround the enemy?

 

If a gunline list, especially one from a SM codex, is stationary, it will simply have a much harder time capitalizing on the opponent's mistakes, not to mention keeping safe from the many tricks the opponent can bring. Mobility is a huge part of a gunline list, and should not be neglected. This is again why I think Blood Angel mech armies are vastly superior to C:SM mech armies: fast vehicles really bring out the best of the SM garage, and it's very cheap at 15 extra points each vehicle.