Death Company Shenanigans

[Kunanaki]

So, I've been really digging in the codex of Blood angels, and I'm probably stating the obvious here, but does anybody get the feeling that the guy who wrote this book really disliked Death Company?

 

There are countless examples of this in the entire codex.

 

1. No more Control via Chaplains. Why was this taken out? It was one of the major ways they we used to be able to handle the Death Company back in the PDF, making them a nasty contribution to the army. Without the Leash, the Dogs are just feral.

 

2. Every Character related to DC limits them in some way. Captain Tycho? Not counted as an inclusion in the DC. Lemartes? Has a Jet Pack, making it extremely limiting to put him with DC unless you run JP DC or a Storm Raven.

 

3. Jet Packs. 15 points per model....why? Vanguards get them for 10, Honor Guard as well....It just seems like a punishment for no reason.

 

4. Relentless. I've got mixed feelings on this one, Fluffy it makes sense, but in game terms there is few ways to take advantage of this, besides power fists and drop podding. With no heavy weapon options, it's just there to make one handed bolter firing look awesome.

 

5. Scoring. Again, Fluff wise I can understand, and not taking up precious elite spots or heavy or fast, that's ok. But Troops are practically the bread and butter of 5th edition, and this just was an extra kick in the teeth for us.

 

6. Points Cost. With all of the advantages vs drawbacks, having an uncontrollable berserk squad that you have to finesse to point it in the right direction is a hassle comparative to cost. As nice as it is to be able to slap in as many power weapons / fists as you'd like, I just cant ever justify the price.

 

Just my thoughts, but looking in the codex, we essentially have uncontrollable bloodthirsty beserkers who can't score, but have some wicked nice abilities on the charge. I want to play them, I really do, but in the end I'll just have to admire the lovely plastic bit models, and shelve them for some time.

 

What are your thoughts?

[Zeller]

1. They're marines living another man's experiences. How could anybody control someone caught up in such a traumatic event as a horus heresy live-action flash back attack?

 

2. No Comment.

 

3. Vanguard vets comparatively don't have all the USR the DC has. Because the VV have less to offer in close combat as far as raw killing their mobility is equally lower in value.

 

4. No Comment.

 

5. Kick in the teeth? We have plenty of stable troop choices to keep objectives. Unless you're playing a huge game where you use 6 troop choices then I don't see how it is an issue. Your thoughts? Combat squad if you have to.

 

6. Simply the downside to having all those USR wrapped up in a nice belligerent package. Due to wound allocation many would leave the DC without weapon upgrades. There's no reason to allow your opponent the opportunity to make one guy take 4 power weapon hits while the rest of his squad takes the other 36 regular attacks. For only two points more than an assault marine you get a DC marine. Hardly a hassling cost. Just be sure to unload them in the right place so they have a nice concentration of enemy units to destroy round after round. Funnel them towards your enemy if you have to by destroying the left and right. Or if you choose jump packs use locator beacons to drop them in the hot zone so they can't get baited.

 

I don't play them often for a few reasons. The main two are cost and uncontrollability. However, in a large enough game I have 15 of them ready to load up my LRC and unleash some whoop ass on the enemy.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

You list all the negatives but you list few of the positives.

 

1) Weapons options, Rending is great and all but having the chance to actually control what the unit is capable of putting out is just lovely.

2) Weapons options, with the chance to get a great deal of melta and plasma weapons its not too easy to bait the squad one way or another.

3) For their points foot slogging units are really quite good. Just a few points more then a normal model yes you do lose some control over them but you gain fearless, Furious charge and feel no pain.

4) With the addition of Chaplains allowing a reroll of wounds on the charge. A unit of death company can kick some gosh darn arse. 9 with a chaplain for example. Will cost just alittle more then a Terminator Squad (Less if the squad is in a raise and the DC are in a rhino for example) will pump out 36 Normal attacks, rerolling to hit and wound. And 4 Pweps that reroll to hit. Against you're average Terminator Squad you're going to see those Thunder Hammer Terminators dissolve. (Ie: 32 hits, 27 wounds, 4 Dead or so. Plus the Power Weapon.) Try rolling it out a few times you'll see just how good they are. If they can mulch heavy infantry think about what they do to the light stuff!

5) WS 5 is a really rather big boon. Hitting most units onf 3s instead of fours is great. And it means most heavy infantry these days only hits us back on 4s.

 

 

In summary. Sure they arent the best unit in the book any more. But between making them optional and a number of decent upgrades. They are really a flexible potent squad that can take on just about anything and come out on top if needed. It just so happens in this addition jump packs arent quite as good on them any more. Though we do have a new Assault Vehicle to cram them into now dont we?

 

Edit: Sniped by Zeller on the first response front XD

[Crynn]

You really don't want to be opening this topic up again mate, it has been covered so many times before. You will get very mixed results on weather people like them or hate them.

 

Facts

Matt Ward (Blood Angels Codex Author) is an id*ot

DC without jump packs are well costed with JP's are horribly over priced

DC do not see tournament play

DC tycho, this char not being in the DC squad only points to fact No: 1 as even in fluff he joined the DC

DC can be made to work, they are not useless but require a transport and generally a chaplain, they will be quite an expensive unit with the appropriate upgrades

Back to fact one, this person has no idea about ba fluff, from (even though i will always love Meph and believe he should be powerful) meph not being an IC makes no sense to dreaming up the sanguinor, dante shaking hands with a necron, oh did i mention the sanguinor beats a blood thirster who once bested sanguinius yet in game the sanguinor looses to meph? meph > Sanguinius??? chaplains in fluff have always had some control ove the dc, the idocy is never ending.

 

So did he not like the DC? I dont really know, its more likely he just had no idea what he was doing when it came to taking on a first founding chapter.

Watch this thread fill up with arguements for and against it is a very hottly debated topic.

 

Regards

Crynn

[Zid]

You really don't want to be opening this topic up again mate, it has been covered so many times before. You will get very mixed results on weather people like them or hate them.

 

Facts

Matt Ward (Blood Angels Codex Author) is an id*ot

DC without jump packs are well costed with JP's are horribly over priced

DC do not see tournament play

DC tycho, this char not being in the DC squad only points to fact No: 1 as even in fluff he joined the DC

DC can be made to work, they are not useless but require a transport and generally a chaplain, they will be quite an expensive unit with the appropriate upgrades

Back to fact one, this person has no idea about ba fluff, from (even though i will always love Meph and believe he should be powerful) meph not being an IC makes no sense to dreaming up the sanguinor, dante shaking hands with a necron, oh did i mention the sanguinor beats a blood thirster who once bested sanguinius yet in game the sanguinor looses to meph? meph > Sanguinius??? chaplains in fluff have always had some control ove the dc, the idocy is never ending.

 

So did he not like the DC? I dont really know, its more likely he just had no idea what he was doing when it came to taking on a first founding chapter.

Watch this thread fill up with arguements for and against it is a very hottly debated topic.

 

Regards

Crynn

^-- what he said. I like DC for some games, however. Fighting orks and nids is amusing, you can easily mow down 30 boyz in 1 combat with 10 DC and a chaplain lol

[Redo]

I find the DC is this codes a bit of a mixture but I do not think the Mat Ward deliberately made them odd or hated them just did not really think through or game play some the DC enough.

 

There certainly are some positives; The weapon choices, WS5 and the added Chaplin bonus.

 

Yet there are some oddities too; Relentless. Yeah I use it but think that it was not that necessary. Fluff inconsistencies such asTycho. It would have been better if he could join the DC, albeit as an IC.

 

Then there are the downright silly things; Personally I think 10 point JPs for VV and HG are a but steep but 15 points for the DC. Rediculous! Uncontrollable Rage is also a bit silly too. Really limits what I see a signiture BA unit.

 

On another note...I find 20 points per DC model quite reasonable and balances out with the not scoring aspect.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

oh did i mention the sanguinor beats a blood thirster who once bested sanguinius yet in game the sanguinor looses to meph? meph > Sanguinius???

 

Wait what? As far as I remember Sanguinius broke the back of the strongest 'Thirster over his knee during the battle for Terra. Not really what i'd call being bested.

 

Also, the fact that Chaplains had some control over DC was maybe something some competitive players liked, but i always disliked it. RAWR we are crazies!! Oh look, we have this guy with a skull on his face with us now.. where to go skullman??

 

Some control does not mean being able to guide them towards any objective you want them to be.

 

Agreed though, Relentless is fun, but not really helps a lot with DC. Only gives you a reason to equip the cannon fodder models you add to the squad with boltguns instead of pistols.

Also agreed the price of JPs is way too high. Indeed being faster reduces the downsides of the Black Rage, but VV with Jump Packs can use Heroic Intervention, why not give them 15 point JPs too then? They gain even more from JPs.

 

Last thing to add: 9 of them with a Chaplain in a Rhino are a fast charging deathstar unit. 10 Assault marines with a Sang Priest are just as expensive and less hardy and deadly.

[TrentL]

I like DC for some games, however. Fighting orks and nids is amusing, you can easily mow down 30 boyz in 1 combat with 10 DC and a chaplain lol

 

10?? I charged 28 boyz with Lemmy + 5 Death Company, hit every time, wounded every time (3+ to hit and wound + re-rolls? yes please!)

 

Killed 19 boyz, the boyz strike back, armor + FnP 0 death company fall.. boyz lose by 19, they are at 9 models, fail moral check, and are killed in the sweeping advance.

 

I'd HATE to see what 10 DC + a chappy would do. (Though I'm too fond of using Lemartes so my DC always have jump packs)

[Brother Nathan]

oh did i mention the sanguinor beats a blood thirster who once bested sanguinius yet in game the sanguinor looses to meph? meph > Sanguinius???

 

Wait what? As far as I remember Sanguinius broke the back of the strongest 'Thirster over his knee during the battle for Terra. Not really what i'd call being bested.

 

 

yea but before that on a different planet that same boodthirster broke sanguiniuses legs and then went on a rampage through the rest of the chapter. but seeing sanguinius broken enraged the angles and unlocked something in them, they turned on theother deamons and routed them. after that they got the call to terra. apparently thats how the fluff was anyway. yes then sanguinius beet him at eternity gate and threw him at his minions... But youll also notice in the fluf that the sanguinator beat this guy, the san gurad with the greyknights beat him, dante cut him in two, mephy i think roundhouse kickd him... does this guy just not learn?

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

does this guy just not learn?

 

Ehm.. I think that's the whole problem with this "Blood for the Blood God" thingy..

 

They don't care if it's their own blood or someone elses... I think ;-)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

does this guy just not learn?

 

Ehm.. I think that's the whole problem with this "Blood for the Blood God" thingy..

 

They don't care if it's their own blood or someone elses... I think ;-)

 

 

It's the whole problem with poorly written fluff where the good guys always have to win by doing some crazy over the top thing just to prove how awesome they are.

[Crynn]

oh did i mention the sanguinor beats a blood thirster who once bested sanguinius yet in game the sanguinor looses to meph? meph > Sanguinius???

 

Wait what? As far as I remember Sanguinius broke the back of the strongest 'Thirster over his knee during the battle for Terra. Not really what i'd call being bested.

 

Also, the fact that Chaplains had some control over DC was maybe something some competitive players liked, but i always disliked it. RAWR we are crazies!! Oh look, we have this guy with a skull on his face with us now.. where to go skullman??

 

Some control does not mean being able to guide them towards any objective you want them to be.

 

Agreed though, Relentless is fun, but not really helps a lot with DC. Only gives you a reason to equip the cannon fodder models you add to the squad with boltguns instead of pistols.

Also agreed the price of JPs is way too high. Indeed being faster reduces the downsides of the Black Rage, but VV with Jump Packs can use Heroic Intervention, why not give them 15 point JPs too then? They gain even more from JPs.

 

Last thing to add: 9 of them with a Chaplain in a Rhino are a fast charging deathstar unit. 10 Assault marines with a Sang Priest are just as expensive and less hardy and deadly.

 

Before sanguinius broke that blood thristers back they had previously fought and sanguinius was bested and the daemon allowed him to live as to mock him. Sanguinius broke his back in a latter battel but didnt have time to finish him off so the daemon still lived. Chaplains always in fluff had some control as the DC could view them as 'not horus' where as everyone was just 'horus' kill maim burn!!!

[Crynn]

No Meph didnt ever fight him, dante cleaved a different blood thirster, but the sanguinor did finally kill him, weather he was resurected after that or just sent back to the warp i dont know. Mephy, strangled, yes strangles a daemon prince cause when your meph you dont need a weapon to win, ripped oped a carnifex then destroyed a hive tyrant and his entire guard after fighting a tyranid hive tendral by himself for a number of hours, I'm sry but sangunius' stories arent even that over the top, i put it down to... Take an epistolary add the power of chief librarian then add the power of the death company with the ability to still be able to control yourself fully. Their is now a precedent for 'beating the black rage makes you insane!' Look at lemartes he is holding off the black rage with his willpower alone and that had made him stupidly powerful, he can on the charge get 7 str 6 I 7 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound? this whole str 6 I 7 has got to have something to do with the black rage, god forbid dante ever succumbs and resists or beats it, can you imagine?